| Author |
Message |
Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 1:20 am: | |
Roberto H., I started a new conversation ("How to purchase across state lines...") in which I discuss mechanics and shops in the New York and vicinitys area. Perhaps, one of those shops is the one you mentioned. Do you care checking this new thread and letting me know?
Thanks,
Arnaldo Torres. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 11:28 pm: | |
That's a good point actually. With the new American system of fitting panels where they are pressed onto a frame rather than bolted does lead to a lot more rattles down the road. It seems like they are going backwards, hmmmm. New Ferraris are getting pretty amazing. They still manage to offer that great Ferrari mystique and passion, but now can do it in a car that is very very reliable. How times have changed since the early days. |
billy zissis (89tr)
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 6:17 pm: | |
I have been reading this site for a while now and this topic really made me want to give in my two cents.
I own a 1989 white/black tr for three years now and the only maintenance that i had to do was the 30,000mile for my car hit that mark a couple months ago. Let me tell you, I have owned everything from a supra to a vette (make that two) to lotus to ferrari. Right now I own the tr, twin turbo esprit (which is the best bang for your buck in my eyes) and an SL500.
Each car has its own personality, but the best is the tr. When you all talk about extensive maintenance there not much more involved than say your regular car. Only because, what, at 30,000 miles you have to spend about four grand? It takes up to approximately five years or more to reach that mark. So when you break it down it only costs a grand a year (a lot less than the insurance). So don't tell me how much maintenance is needed.
As for which of my cars I love to drive, the Ferrari is the best. Sure the Lotus reaches 0-60 and the 1/4 mile quicker (4.1 and 12.5 respectively) but the Ferrari is a lot more fun getting there. As for comparing to a vette the is a completely different league. First things first the tr should not rattle and creak at all. The vette should be renamed the rattler for it is one of the worst put together cars. With a few mods on the tr (such as an exhaust, no cats, K&N filter, light wheels) you will be surprised how quick it is. Oh, and I forgot....the engine noise..
Remember a wise man once said....You pay for the engine the rest of the car comes for free.... |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 4:17 pm: | |
Does anyone out there have a Chevette they want to sell? Thanks to Allen Greenspan I will probably be in the market for one soon. I am just thankful I sold all my Dot-Com stocks before they fell and purchased that cattle ranch in England with the proceeds. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 3:48 pm: | |
I don't understand why you guys are so anti-vette. It's not like they compete with Ferrari or anything. Do you guys hate all cars other than Ferraris? You are kind of preaching to the choir about Ferraris here. You know, you we like more than one car, even though Ferraris are our favorites. The only car that I am against is Porsche. The P-car, the sworn enemy of Ferrari. I get a lot of dirty looks from Porsche drivers which just makes me dislike them ever more. The old ones are alright, but the owners of new ones are the worst for the most part.
I somewhat resent the stereotypical comments of Italians, I mean many of us are Italian here and we all seem to have an obsession with their cars. And for the record, I like Duran Duran. Except for Porsche I am more Live and Let Live when it comes to cars. If it makes someone happy then so be it. |
Scott Juarez (Scottjua)
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 11:08 am: | |
Caribe,
I'm so glad that you were able to think it through and put those doubts aside. The WHOLE reason I went off on such a long tangent was to try to HELP, and point out that IF it was pure performance you were after then you might be dissapointed in the long run. BUT since you have come to the conclusion that the TR is more than just mere numbers I think once you find a Nice TR that has been well maintained and taken care of you will be in pure bliss.
I'm really sorry to have rubbed some of you the completely wrong way...but I think if you really went back and looked at my posts with an un-biased point of view you would see that I wasn't trying to bash such a wonderful piece of work. I was merely trying to obejectively and honestly evaluate Caribe's concerns and questions that he had about whether or not the TR was still the car he was set on.
As far as the Vette comparison goes...I don't think I ever implies that it was a better car and that anyone was stupid for buying a TR over a VEtte. I'm pretty sure I made it clear that as a PERFORMANCE VALUE...the TR doesn't hold a candle to it. Nothing more nothing less. Obviously a small point was magnified and blown way out of proportion and eventually turned against it's own intent.
Anyway...I just want to say...Caribe, again, I think you have realized that a Ferrari embodies something that no other car can come close to and I personally think that once you find the right TR you will get to know it and love it. As far as I'm concerned each one has a soul and a life all it's own. I hope you can appreciate the pains we've gone through on this subject and can now see how strongly everyone feels about their TR or any Ferrari for that matter. After all that's what it's all about. I'm not sure if I stated clearly before...it's not the numbers but the feel, and that's what I was trying to say all along while attempting to give you an open minded criticism and suggestion. |
michael (Scmguru)
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 9:27 am: | |
Didn't the 1992-1994 512TR resolve a lot of the quirks inherent in the 1985-1991 Testarossa? |
RICK ROMERO (Tr90)
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 7:06 am: | |
CHRIS N CHICAGO:
BRAVO. COULD NOT SAY IT BETTER MYSELF. |
ROBERTO H. (Roberto)
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 7:03 am: | |
caribe:
were you able to find the phone number of the ferrari mechanic i had recommended earlier on one of my posts. he is only minutes away from New York and if the owner of the TR is serious he will take the car to him. He realy knew his ferrari and i was extremley happy with him after my pruchase.
I am still looking to find his number. Let us know what happens. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 3:53 am: | |
Chris N Chicago...you pinned it down so well! As far as I'm concerned you're the new William until he gets back, just try to use more abbreviations like: "cus, r u crazy" etc...
All I'm going to add to this mess is... I love my Ferrari. Its been sitting in my garage since Dec. 2000, spent $XXXX and I still love it. Ferrari is forever! |
Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 11:41 pm: | |
The owner of the TR in New York has fax me copies of the receipts for the Major and other services. He says that he has all receipts since new, and that he is willing to fax them all so that I can evaluate the car history for myself. He recommended me to talk to the mechanic that did his major, and to Ferrari of Long Island where his car has been serviced before. He seems very forthcoming about any issue or question I raise about the car. I am considering discussing a pre-purchase verification with a dealer in New York, or nearby areas. I will appreciate any suggestions on a good place to do this job, and yes, I am considering flying over to check the car for myself before commiting money and resources.
Again, I welcome any suggestion for a good place or dealer to do the pre-purchase inspection in the New York and vicinity areas.
Thanks,
Arnaldo Torres. |
Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 11:16 pm: | |
Gentelmen,
The reason I mentioned the vette was to state a point of comparison between a sports car that I have driven and know its performance, and that of the TRs that I had just driven. After all, the title of this conversation explicitly states that this is my first Ferrari experience, hence, I needed some base for comparison. God knows what would have happen if I have compared the TR's performance to that of my Mercedes, or worst, to that of my Suburban.
Anyway, thanks again for your opinions and suggestions. Talking about the same thing from so many points of view really gives the subject a different prospective. When I bought my Ducati, I had reactions from people as to why did I paid more for an italian bike than I would have for a Japanese with similar or better performance. Most of these people had never riden a Ducati either. Having driven the TRs, reading all your comments, and thinking about it for the whole day have given me the opportunity to realize that is not all about brute performance, there is finese, beauty, and heart behind the skin, there are more perks to ownership than the cars can provide on their own, perhaps due to the simple fact that it is a Ferrari. Yes, the noises still bug me, and the maintenance costs concern me, but now I have educated knowledge (from your experiences) that Ferrari makes better cars than the ones I have driven, and I am continuing my search for one of those.
Ben, I am deeply honor by your offer to drive your TR. If you are still interested in my opinion, please let me know. I can make arrangements to stop by and share a few minutes with you and your car.
Thanks again,
Arnaldo Torres. |
Chris_N_Chicago (Chris_N_Chicago)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 10:06 pm: | |
I think I am going to eat my own brain!
Anyone who wants to be part of the GM/Chevy herd of the 80's Guido's; can get into their Vette or Iroc Z and go to www.corvette.com and comb their chest hair amongst the masses there. ( Duran Duran cd's come standard with all Vette's now...Z06 owners get Wham and George Michael cassette option )
We're all about Ferrari's here...
Signed,
William(Countachxx) |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 9:47 pm: | |
Seriously, let's not blow this out of proportion. The Vette is an excellent car and offers more for the buck than probably any car out there. It also has a great image and is wonderful car. But as you said it is not the same as a Ferrari. They are two drastically different types of cars, each offering their own special traits. The Ferrari is, like Ernesto said, about the mystique and the passion. But not all people can afford (through money and time) a Ferrari, and not all people want a Ferrari. They aren't substitutes for each other, just different paths to take. |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 9:01 pm: | |
What are we comparing Corvettes to Ferraris now? I dont have the time to read through all the posts to check who started that stupid comparison, but I will just say that that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. My uncle just bought a brand new Z06 SuperVette. The fit and finish sucks, seating position is crap, road visibility is zero with that long ass hood, shifts are a mile long, plastics in the interior are garbage, and the windows leak in the rain. I got back into my Ferrari (granted a 360) and I couldnt believe the difference. The Corvette actually felt 15 years old. Even my 93 Supra feels better than the Vette.
Ferrari is supposed to be about legend, history, tradition, style, racing, engine, handling, etc etc, not outright speed, fuel economy, warranties, etc etc etc. Yes they are expensive to buy. Yes they are expensive to maintain. Yes they are quirky. Yes they require more effort (to maintain and drive) than regular cars. If you dont understand all of this, then you shouldnt buy one just to attract attention. That is stupid. |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 8:33 pm: | |
If you were buying a car that was ugly and it had a Ferrari engine in it and you did not know what kind of engine it had, and you were told how much maintanance it would require anyone would tell the seller that they were crazy and you would never buy a car that needed so much expensive work to keep that ugly thing going. The same thing happened several years ago that few people know of or remember. AMC purchased engines from Porsche for some of their cars. Yes,Porsche engines in a Rambler. It was a disaster. They used oil and were under powered and had something wrong with them all the time. Yet the same engine in a Porsche "just needed routine maintainance," which the Porsche owner expected. Same engine, different perspective. Same with a pretty woman and a less attractive one. Which one usually gets a job first? |
RICK ROMERO (Tr90)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 8:26 pm: | |
P.S.
TO ALL YOU BLOATED PIG TR DRIVERS, I HAVE FOUND A GREAT DEAL ON CHEVY CAVALIERS IF THE CORVETTES ARE ALL GONE! |
RICK ROMERO (Tr90)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 8:12 pm: | |
Scott from all of us ferrari TR owners we apologize for not purchasing a Corvette since it is the best car on the planet. We will never buy an older ferrari and would wait until we can afford to purchase a f355 or may be f360 .
I guess that will not be in my lifetime as i am not going to be rich soon because of the stock market. So everyone run to your Chevy dealer now before all the corvettes are gone!
Caribe, wish you the best of luck in your decision and hope you make the right choice. Do yourself a favour and find a clean and well maintained TR and then you will know why we get so pissed off when someone bashes our passion. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 7:53 pm: | |
you mean if I can pry it away from Thomas? I thought you were on vacation.
-Ben |
Danny R. West (Dan_West348ts)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 7:13 pm: | |
Ben,
I'd love to come drive your car!
Thanks.
Dan |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 6:19 pm: | |
Well I had a whole thought composed here from my reading of this thread ealrier in the day, now I just have more to add to it.
My two cents here, one penny at a time.
First off Enzo NEVER built cars (or vehicles or automobiles, or whatever). He always said "I only build engines, others put body and wheels to them". And after recently seening a 360 being FILED (with a metal file) down so that the look of the body would be even when the Challenge grill is installed you have to remember that Ferrari altho a brand of car, is primarily and engine manufacturer. The fit and finish is not as perfect as an assembly line Vette, and that is part of the car's character. Live with it or buy a Vette. Gee I'm not trying to sound harsh, but there really is no other way of saying it.
Second I would welcome you (Caribe, or heck even Dr. Dan West!) to come up to SF and test drive my TR. Maybe we should start somehting like that for other forum users? It's been a bit of a labor of love for me and well that is what the passion is.
Not that my TR is for sale but I'd be interesed to know how you think it feels compared to the others you have now driven.
With respect to Irfgt I did NOT buy my car to impress or wow ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF. I bought it because I wanted it and it makes me happy, let's all admit that we have practical cars for practical reasons and then we have other cars (apply this to anything really) that we have because we like them. Either to drive, to tinker with, race, or even in some cases show off and get others to wow at.
I'm not sure how you think the enignes (all of them?) are under powered, don't Ferrari engines have the best hp/liter and other specs of this kind of all other (road) engines?
/rant filter off
ok enough of this for now I'll let someone else have a turn on the soapbox.
-Ben |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 4:11 pm: | |
I guess I need to put in my opinion since everyone else has and gotten flack from it. I never back away from a fight. I have had the luxury over the years of having been able to drive almost every car ever made and to take them all apart piece by piece. Over 30,000 of them to be exact, so I feel that I could be considered somewhat of an authority on different cars. My Ferrari experience has been limited to the last couple of years so my experiences have only been in 308s, 328s, and TRs. and I own an 82 308. My experience is that the only reason to buy a Ferrari is for the head turning, golly I've never seen one of these before reaction from other non owners. From a mechanical aspect the engines are under powered, overly complicated, and have inferior quality and design and quality control compared to other vehicles. A 300z Nissan is faster than a 308/328, A Corvette is faster and a million times more dependable than a TR, A Honda civic shifts better than either and a Toyota can be driven off in sub zero weather the instant it starts. A Ferrari has one thing that none of the other vehicles have though and that is Legend. If you want to tell time you can go to Wal-Mart and get a $15.00 Timex. If you want people to be impressed with your watch then go buy a Rolex. They both tell time, in fact the Timex is probably more accurate, but you ain't going to have anyone ask about your Timex. The Ferrari design is probably the most beautiful in the world and I will argue with anyone about this but the mechanical end is another matter. If you want brute speed you can buy a Corvette and save a ton of money over a TR. No service on a Vette will ever cost what a service on a TR does, hell a Vette engine does not cost what a TR service does, but a Vette does not look like a TR and the Vette will not draw a crowd in a parking lot and the staff at a drive thru will not come out to see a Vette. People be honest, this is what you are purchasing. My wife put it in perspective, you mean you paid $30,000 for a car that the power windows are slow as Christmas, uses oil, has uncomfortable seats, the air conditioner is barely adequate, does not have tilt wheel, cruise control, or a trunk? You must be crazy! I guess she is right on all counts. |
Scott Juarez (Scottjua)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 3:25 pm: | |
Rick,
Obviously you have mis-read just about everything I have put down here. Either that or I haven't taken the proper measures as to not have my intent misconstrued. To that effect I must say...whatever.
I tried to be as rational and positive as I could while trying to point out that I love the car even with it's many quirks and quibbles that come with it. I don't think I overly implied that ALL Ferrari Owners were Filthy Rich, I merely stated that IF I WAS (filthy rich) I would then buy a TR to supplement my "theoretical" current stable. It seems to me that since I don't share the opinion that the TR is the be all end all greatest performance car in the world I am getting attacked. I hate to get into a pissing match of who said what...but geez. I mean I love Ferraris just as much as most of anyone else here does...but for Caribe I was suggesting that he might look into it more to put some of his doubts to rest with a informed and well thought out decision.
Comparing a TR to a Corvette isn't/wasn't my intention, nor did I think I did that. But since you brought it up...As a performance value the Vette beats the TR till it's black and blue. There's no sense in arguing about it. Put the same driver behind the wheel of each and see which gets better times on the track. The TR is a bloated pig in comparison. Now I know I've surely enraged you with that one, but the fact of the matter is...well that's just it.
Believe me when I say this...I don't have anything against the TR as a whole, I merely started by suggesting...based on what Caribe stated...that he might think about his decision more intently and really get to know the cars that he is seeking.
I love Ferraris...and yes I do think they are slightly over priced...the older ones more so than the newer ones. I say this based on performance/$ value. Yes i realize they are hand built works of art, and YES I realize that depending on which car and for whatever reason they are well worth every penny. AND YES I realize that that statement sounds like yet another contradiction. Hear me out...Would anyone is their right mind really pay NEAR 80K$ for a 1989 or older TR that one first glance had leather wear, paint damage, and un-original body modifications (i.e. painted skirts), un-characteristicly low mileage, lack of attention to detail and dirt in the interior, and Engine bay? This is the "Over priced" portion of the market I was referring to. I would expect to pay near that amount for a decent mileage near cherry car. But maybe I'm too picky with my hard earned money. In contrast a car like the 250 GTO is well worth every penny and maybe more due to it's number built...race success, and the fact that it was hammered out of memory by a few men with no computer aid and happens to be one of the MOST beautiful things every created. The TR is a mass produced (in Ferrari Terms) road car. There lies the difference.
BTW, I don't doubt that you or anyone else here works very hard to drive the amazing machines they do, that is of no concern to me and I don't care one way or the other. I just hope that everyone here KNOWS what a special thing they have and how much of a privalege it is to have one. And I think you know that so you don't have to justify your owning the car to me by telling me that you work hard for it. It's already assumed. I aslo don't think that only "Rich" people can afford Ferraris...but it sure helps. For those of us who didn't so so well with the market recently and those who break their backs to get into a Ferrari, the decision is not an easy one when faced with the bills and repair that is associated with owning somehting like a TR. Does that mean if you can't afford the maintenance twice over then you have no business owning one? NO! What it does mean though is that things like regular maintenance on a 12 cylinder Ferrari isn't going to be a drop in the bucket for most. Hell you guys know what a belt change will cost.
So to conclude I will say...based on the questions Caribe asked I would have to say that as much as I love the TR and all Ferraris...it may not be the WISEST choice. And IF you are into straight up performance...yes the TR is one of the most capable cars on the road...but lets be real, for the amount of money it cost to get one AND maintain it...you can do better. HOWEVER, we are in a Ferrari Forum and of course he wants a TR...so the problem stands...should he just run out and get one because it's so awesome? NO. Shop around and make sure...that's all I'm saying. And it seems like everyone else is too. Because I'm sure a well maintained TR will be very enjoyable and make him feel like nothing else in the world could touch him while driving it. IF it's the car he really wants. |
ROBERTO H. (Roberto)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 2:05 pm: | |
Caribe:
Few years back befor i bought my 87TR in New Jersey and had it checked out by a ferrari mechanic in New Jersey.
I can not find his business card but i beleive the name of his business was Auto Elite or Elite Auto i am not exactly sure. He checked the car for me completely and gave me an honest opinion of the car. I beleive all he works on is Ferrari's and Lamborghini's. You can also find an authorized Ferrari dealer in New York but they will charge you double and he is just as good if not better. Also beware if the owner does not allow you to check the car by a ferrari specialist.
Best of luck. |
Christiank (Christiank)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 1:40 pm: | |
Caribe:
I can only tell you about Nick Scianna not other people. He is a mechanic who does mostly/only modifications to Ferrari. If you think that the performance is not enough, he will be able to crank 60/70 more HP out of the TR without taking the engine apart.
Call him and ask him, he is a 100% reliable person, knows everything about Ferrari and a nice guy too. His phone # is 1-360-332-7779. |
Danny R. West (Dan_West348ts)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 1:37 pm: | |
I agree with the Ferrari owners in this discussion. Last year I went looking for a TR but was scared away by discussions saying TRs were expensive to maintain. I ended up buying a '91 348ts. I have spent $8,000 already. I purchased the car from a dealer. It came with a Ferrari pre-owned warranty. The warranty has saved me money. The reason for the amount spent so far is due to re-repairing things that a shop in Southern California originally repaired. Two examples of this are they installed a defective Tubi exhaust system and installed a factory defective clutch. The Tubi did not fit correctly and rubbed against the rear bumper. Tubi made it right. The clutch was difficult to press when I bought the car. Taking the car to a Ferrari dealer in Northern California showed the clutch came with only material on one of the two plates. I had another installed. I also had the cables in the door replaced because they were shorting out.
The bottom line is this... Owning a Ferrari is like having a high maintenance girlfriend. It's costly and rewarding.
Dan |
ROBERTO H. (Roberto)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 1:03 pm: | |
CARIBE:
JUST BECAUSE A CAR IS NEW YORK OR CALIFORNIA DOES NOT MAKE IT GOOD OR BAD. YOU SHOULD CHECK THE HISTORY AND THE SERVICE RECORDS BEFORE MAKING ANY DECISIONS. IF THE CAR IS IN A GOOD CONDITION AND SERVICES HAVE BEEN PERFORMED AS SCHEDULE AND THE PRICING IS GOOD THEN TAKE A DAY TRIP IT WILL ONLY COST YOU $300.00. YOU MIGHT ENDUP SAVING YOURSELF SOME MONEY AT THE END. GOOD LUCK. |
RICK ROMERO (Tr90)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 12:57 pm: | |
scott,
Not all the Ferrari owners are filty rich as you put it. I have to work very hard and put in a 13hour days and was able to buy myself the dream car. Just because we do not have all the money in the world we can not have the finer things in like. As christian put it, Ferrari is a passion .
How can anyone in his right mind compare a Ferrari to a Corvette. At least befor your were comparing it to another Ferrari (f355). you give a choice to anyone either on this website or others a choice of well mainatained Ferrari Tr or a Corvette and i will guarantee you 99% will take the ferrai. I guess you will the that 1% .
you also say that go ahead and spent more money and buy a newer ferrari and then contradict yourself and say ferrari's are overpriced and only rich people can afford them. I think that you are only scaring away caribe from buying his dream car just because he drove two lemons which were not welll maintained as he described.
I am sure you can find a very well maintained 88-90 TR anywhere between $65,000-$70,000 and i have seen excellent examples. |
Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 12:54 pm: | |
I have read all your comments and feel very please with the support and opinions you guys have offered. I definitely will take your advice and try to find and drive cars which have been given better care by their owners. Like Scott, mentioned, driving the C5 Corvette really make me wish for more performance out of the TRs, and perhaps this is were my dilemma resides. Is it all about performance?, or is there something else that will make it a great car to own? The more I think about it, the less those imperfections matter. I am glad that some of you with TRs with higher mileage have expressed that the bad findings on these cars could be related to improper maintenance and care. I was beginning to feel really uneasy about the quality of materials, durability, and fit of these cars overall. I will keep my mind open, and I will keep looking for better examples to put my decision to the test once more. I have been contemplating purchasing a TR from New York, which due to this experience and the distance involved (I am in California) I have almost felt compel to throw out.
Some of you mentioned hiring an expert for checking the car (Someone even mentioned Nick Scianna). How comprehensive are these people? What has been the experience of any of you when using them?
Thanks,
Caribe. |
Scott Juarez (Scottjua)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 12:30 pm: | |
Ahhh...I guess I'm not getting anywhere here. I t seems like I dig myself deeper and deeper.
I'm actually half frustrated that my comments came out that way and half because if you knew me personally you would think I was the biggest Ferrari freak on the planet. I am all about passion for the wonderful cars that Enzo built...but at the same time...maybe it's because in my posiotion reality of finance is harsh...I am trying to see past blind devotion to the car just because of what it is. I mean sure they feel great and when you are behind the wheel nothing else can take you from cloud nine...but for those who work VERY hard to finally get their hands on the car of their dreams I'd hate to have to see that dream diminish and squashed by one or two bad experiences.
And it seems...there are those who want a Ferrari for different reasons...whatever they may be. Some just to say they have one, or to make the image complete and some because no other car can make your heart race and you blood push through your veins like a Ferrari. For me it's the latter... It's a culmination of looks, feel, and sounds that make my head feel light and my pulse race. Not too much out there does that quite to the caliber that a Ferrari does. That's my stance anyway...but as much as I love them and as much as my heart skips beats when you drive them...there is that cold hard reality underneath. And I based my comments on that side of it only. |
Scott Juarez (Scottjua)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 12:14 pm: | |
And to address your comment: I DO wish I owned one...but I wouldn't buy one unless I was filthy rich and it was to complimet my already healthy stable. ^_^
Please take this lightly, I want to make friends here not enemies |
Christiank (Christiank)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 12:14 pm: | |
Scott:
What you are saying is true, but it is true for most buying decisions, whether you buy a car or a computer. Owning a Ferrari is about passion, you should work on that. |
Scott Juarez (Scottjua)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 12:07 pm: | |
WOW! Obviously I got on the wrong foot here...I am NOT BASHING the TR at all. It is a wonderful car and well worth the money for what you get. However I still think they are a bit over priced in todays market, but that also depends on WHERE you go. As far as performance/vs. $ amount you can get a brand new Corvette for less and have a better performer. IN A SENSE. Now please hear me out.I kow that they are completely different thigns and you can't compare apples to oranges... All I'm saying is that if you are not absolutely sure that the Ferrari Testarossa is a car you want then I would suggest staying away. At least until you can spend more time with people who own them and can show you what a GOOD example of the car runs and feels like.
I realize that I may have rubbed some of you wrong but PLEASE PLEASE don't take it as I am bashing the car. The Ferrari Testarossa has been one of my dream cars for as long as I can remember, but I just don't think I would want one anymore. Even if I drove a perfect example with no quirks and runnning strong. FOR ME...the extra money on the newer car is well worth it for overall driving pleasure. But again, I'm coming at it from a different angle all together that may not even be applicable in this situation. I would want the TR for as much of a daily driver that I could make it as well as be able to take it to a track and give it a good work out. And from what I can tell...cost effective...the TR doesn't quite fit that bill as well as a newer Ferrari may be. And I know the 12 cylinder cars are much more complicated and difficult to fix...hence the higher repair bills.
What I'm saying is that if the imperfections and costs are a worry...then take more time to try to research (by driving and talking to owners and mechanics) more about the car until you are absolutely positive that the TR is right for you.
In his post he asked "Now the question is, why should I spent the money in a car that is far from perfection (in the production sense) and that cost so much to own? Is it the beatiful lines, the
sounds of the engine, or what. Today, I cannot answer this question to myself, perhaps one of you out there has the true answer."
To me that sends up a yellow flag about whether or not the TR would untimately satisfy him in his quest for the ultimate driving machine (no BMW reference intended).
Personally as much as I love that car, and know it's fun to drive, but I think it might be more of a pain to own than it's worth. Especially if there are doubts in the first place.
Again I am sorry for offending anyone, I was just trying to give a more neutral stance on the subject but it seems as if I have not represented my case in the best possible manner. As much as I love Ferrari cars and everyhting that accompanies them...I can't soundly say "Go out and buy one now if you've got the money, don't worry about the little things" Because if he was to gout and buy one based on emotion only and end up with a sour deal...it will be one more person later stating how they owned one and they are just over priced Italian crap. so to avoid a bad experience all together I am trying to give a different point of view and trying to talk about the real world side of the ownership experience. Not discredit the car of the craftsmenship that went into it. |
Christiank (Christiank)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 11:51 am: | |
I don't believe in those low mileage cars. Most of them are manipulated. When I look at the interior of 10 to 15 year old 5,000 miles cars offered on ebay or from dealers for 70 K plus dollars I am always getting a good laugh out of it. I found myself one of the cheapest TR around in Germany which has all service records and is a 2 owner car. The only thing I have to replace are the ignition wires, caps and rotors and the previous owner is willing to pay half of that. I am not saying that the old ones are bad but my standards are very high. I own a 99 BMW 540 and of course it is much easier to drive than a TR but also EXTREMLY BORING. The only thing bothering me is the steering but you get used to that. My wife (120 pounds) can drive the car and she is telling me that shifting is actually fun. Shifting will also be much easier if you go to Mobil1 or Pennzoil plus GM-LSD.
And, babying a beautiful car like a TR is a lot of fun, don't call it work. My recommendation: Don't buy from a dealer, find a good car from private, check service records etc. etc and if you think this is it hire Nick Scianna or whoever and spend whatever to have the car checked. |
RICK ROMERO (Tr90)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 11:32 am: | |
I COULD NOT HOLD BACK AFTER READING SCOTT'S ARTICLE ON HIS WEBSITE. IT SEEMS LIKE SCOTT REALY WANTS TO BASH THE TR OR HE WISHED HE OWNED ONE.
FIRST OF ALL I RECOMMEND HE DRIVES A CLEAN AND WELL MAINTAINED TR AND NOT AN 86 WHICH HAS NOT BEEN WELL MAINTAINED OR IS FILTY AS HE DESRIBES IT. i WHISH YOU CAN DRIVE MY TR AND THEN TELL ME IF HE WOULD HAVE STILL WRITTEN HIS REVIEW.
HOW CAN YOU COMPARE A 1986 TR TO A F355 WHICH IS ONE GENERATION AHEAD OF ITS COMPETITION NOT MENTIONING A PRICE DIFFERENCE OF$50,00-$60,000.
I AM 6'3" AND HAVE NO PROBLEMS GETTING INTO MY 90TR AND HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH THE VISIBILITY.
I WONDER WHAT SCOTT WROTE ABOUT THE 308 & 328. SHOULD WE THROUGHT THEM AWAY SINCE THE F355'S ARE OUT. |
RICK ROMERO (Tr90)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 11:16 am: | |
I HAVE TO TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH SCOTT. i OWNED MY TR FOR OVER 5 YEARS NOW AND IT HAS BEEN DRIVEN ALMOST EVERY DAY SINCE I AM LUCKY ENOUGH TO LIVE IN A WARM WEATHER CLIMATE. i HAVE HAD NO BAD EXPERIENCES SINCE I BOUGHT MY TR AND THAT'S DUE TO REGULAR MAINTENANCE. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A HONDA OR A TOYOTA THAT ALL YOU TO DO IS CHANGE OIL.
WE ARE DRIVING A VERY HIGH PERFORMANCE VEHICLE WHICH WILL REQUIRE ATTENTION. IF FERRARI'S WERE SUCH BAD CARS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN OUT OF BUSINESS LONG TIME AGO AND PRICES WOULD HAVE DROPPED LIKE LAMBORGHINI.
CARIBE, DO YOURSELF A FAVOUR AND DRIVE A TR WHICH IS WELL MAINTANED AND SERVICED AND THEN JUDGE FOR YOURSELF. |
Scott Juarez (Scottjua)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 10:43 am: | |
I have to say that I have been a bit disappointed in my latest few experiences with TRs as well. It is HARD to find one that is in the kind of condition you'd like for the price. That little emblem on the hood keep the prices well above what they are really worth. Now I know this is blasphemy in the Ferrari Forum but it has to be said. If it's raw performance you want...then go with something new and don't worry about it. BUT if you just want to own a TR then by all means get one. Just realize that like you said...the cost of owning it will be great, and over time if you're not absolutely sure that it is the car for you then I would stay away.
It would also pay to be patient and find the RIGHT TR for you. There are some excellent examples out there and for a good price...but it may take a lot of patience to find them.
There's just something about the TR that is hard to forget even if it's not the quickest car these days. However, if you want a performance car that will be balls out fast and handle great, and be a DAILY car...look elsewhere. Of course this is my opinion, and I know that it sounds funny to recommend against such a beast and beautiful machine...but it sounds like you're not too confident or convinced by your first two drives. I would recommend you drive a couple more if you can and get a better idea of if it's something you really want.
BTW, keep and eye on those low low mileage cars...they might be more trouble prone than one that has been regularly driven.
Here's an article I wrote on my site about my first two drives: http://www.nextestdrive.net/testarossa.html
Hope this helped.
Don't get me wrong...the TR is a wonderful car and one to be proud to own, but if you are not absolutely sure and prepared for the quirks that come with owning one...take your time. Don't let the idea of owning a FERRARI get the best of you or your judgement.
Scott |
Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 10:34 am: | |
I don't have any personal knowledge of this, but there are many old postings here talking about high mileage F cars running around with their odometer disconnected so it doesn't show. I, personally, would be concerned about any car that shows wear beyond what the odometer suggests... |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 10:33 am: | |
1) I prefer the private owner seller that has babied and driven their car as everyone on this board does.
2) The gated shifter grows on you. I didn't like it at first because it didn't feel as quick and smooth as my BMW. However, now I can't stand getting back in the BMW after the solid feeling of the Ferrari.
3) The rattles... I like it, because it's the stiff frame and suspension, loose parts rattling is not good, but feeling every crack in the road is great. The car isn't meant to be comfortable going to the grocery store. However, when you are are accerlating, braking, and turning at speeds 80-130 mph... that's when the Ferrari feels just right. |
ROBERTO H. (Roberto)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 8:31 am: | |
IT HAPPENED THE SAME TO ME WHEN I WENT TO TEST DRIV A CAR AT THE DEALER, THEY DON'T DO SERVICE TO THE CARS THEY SELL. FOR THAT REASON I WNET OUT AND FIND MY SELF A 87 TR WITH 20,000 MILES, BUT THE PREVIOS OWNER DID MAJOR BELT SERVICE AND MADE A BIG DIFFERENCE WHEN I DROVE THAT CAR; AND THATS HOW I BOUGHT THE CAR. MY SUGGESTIONS IS TEST DRIVE A CAR WITH ALL THE SERVICES DONE. |
RICK ROMERO (Tr90)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 8:20 am: | |
I have 25,000 miles on my 90TR and do not have any of the problems you have mentioned. You need to know that Ferrari's are high performance vehicles and if they are not cared for and maintained properly you will not enjoy them.
Don't be discouraged by your test drive since most of the vehicles offered by dealers are not maintained properly. They will not invest into the car to bring it up to standards as far as services. You know a major service on these cars will cost them between $4000-$5000 and they don't want to invest. You have to realize you are dealing with used car salesman. I purchased mine from a private owner who was proud and fanatic about his car and had all service records.
You should definetly test drive a TR which has had the major service done and has all the service records . I promise you a big surprise is waiting for you. My TR drives extremley smooth and fast and that's due to my schedule maintenance. The exhiliration you will get in driving a well maintained TR is unbelievable. Don't be discouraged, you had probably test drove two lemons. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 3:45 am: | |
The leather in my car is now 26 years old and although it has a cracked surface, it is not TORN (this is what you'd call patina).
I too was scared of that shifter and its intimidating teeth gate...What a surprise! Clutch and shifter firm but smooth, appropriate for a car like this. Yes you need concentration, remember, you're not driving a Cadillac!
For those descriptions and little mileage on those cars, they sound "used". IMHO. |
Christiank (Christiank)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 2:16 am: | |
Caribe:
I just bought a 87 Tr and I can tell you tell following:
My car has true 35,000 miles on it and it does not rattle, neither has it wear to the leather. The clutch should not feel harsh at all, maybe a bit tough but not hard. Steering is a problem when you go slow but very good when you move. I have a European mod and it seems to be much faster than the US mod. If interested fly by in Kelowna/BC and take a test drive for comparisson.
I would ignore the dealer cars and just look at the maintenance record and have the car checked through an expert.
Ciao
Christian |
Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 12:02 am: | |
Well, I just came from the dealer (Ogner Motorcars, CA). Test drove a '89 Blue/Blue Testarossa (2600 mi.), and a '90 Red/Tan Testarossa (10300 mi). The cars look incredible, and what do you know,I even liked it in blue after all. The red TR had a lot of stone chips in the front, but besides that, the exterior was in very good condition except for a desperate need of a detailing of the whole car (same for the blue). The bottom spoiler was painted red (I thought it was supposed to be black), and the paint look newer than the rest of the car which leads me to believe that it had suffer some spoiler damage. Leather had some damage which seemed the result of regular wear, even on the blue TR that only had 2600 mi. This leads me to believe that the quality and durability of the leather is less at least when compared with Mercedes or BMW. The car had a new clutch, put just minutes before I got to the dealer. It felt hard and harsh at first, perhaps it needs some time to break in (is this normal?). The clutch of the blue TR felt really nice, hard but smooth. Nevertheless, Shifting was a big surprise. I heard bad comments about the gated shifter of these cars, but it was worst than I expected. It required a lot of force to move between gears, and a lot of concentration to get it right. Is this something I will get use to with time? Both cars felt exactly the same on this regard.
Anyway, the TR(s) felt heavier and slower than a C5 that I had driven a few months back. The sound was there, but the car was not moving fast enough to feel really excited about it (the blue seemed to move faster with less effort from the engine though). Steering force was also more than I expected although the road feel was definitely there. There were a lot of noises (squeaks and rattles) in both cars which was really surprising given the very low mileage of both cars. I was really disappointed because they felt like old cars (my Mercedes with 240K mi. rattles and squeaks a lot less). The blue automatic shoulder seat restraint system was not working, the engine compartment door had to be pushed really hard on the left sife before it will close. It took me a few tries before it locked. The right door seemed to be developing some rust just below the last bottom strake (is that how they are called?).
Enought said, the cars definitely show their hand-made characteristics immediately. Great materials, but less than perfect fit, and durability (as compared with production cars such as Mercedes). It makes you think if this is the kind of things that make them special, or that perhaps out hearts are placed on the wrong things.
By the way, the cars were priced at $79K for the blue, and $89K for the red. The fact that the cars showed dirty (exterior, interior, and specially engine compartment), that none had any minor/major service done, and that they had to wait until I make the appointment before they took care of the clutch problem (coincidence perhaps), makes me think that they are putting the least amount of effort (and cash) into conditioning, maintaining and fixing these cars before they are sold. Truly disappointing!
Now the question is, why should I spent the money in a car that is far from perfection (in the production sense) and that cost so much to own? Is it the beatiful lines, the sounds of the engine, or what. Today, I cannot answer this question to myself, perhaps one of you out there has the true answer.
Caribe. |
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