| Author | Message | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think Ross hit the nail on the head. For all of the love any car enthusiast has for the old classics, most any of those old classics are at least 30 years old by now. And unless a car has been completely rebuilt from the ground up with a complete frame-off restoration, it will probably always continue to have nit picking problems all the time. I ponder this situation quite often as I look at the piles of parts for all of my antique car projects. I threaten (one of these days) to sell it all and buy one or two decent classics that I can hop in, turn the key, and drive down the road without fear of incidents and hassles. Ponder this absurd possibility: actually spend time on the weekends DRIVING and having fun instead of twisting wrenches and busting knuckles on a restoration project that never ends! | ||
| Malcolm Barksdale (Malcolmb)
New member Username: Malcolmb Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sorry to take so much space. Of course the Daytona compared to the 456 is the same, and not the same. The modern car is very easy to get in way over your head, warning is subtle and you can be going very very fast with little sensation of speed. The Daytona makes the best noise of any Ferrari except the C4 and is rock steady at high speeds, but you know[or think] you are going fast because it is busy in the cabin.Incidentaly I was surprised to see it burned only two quarts of oil in the 3400 mile trip.Steering is heavy but you get into the routine and you dont think aboput it anymore.So far nothing has broken except the clock. | ||
| Malcolm Barksdale (Malcolmb)
New member Username: Malcolmb Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2002 |
Whart: After thinking about Deam batchelor and the Daytona road test photo, reading Roush's article on driving a Daytona from North Dakota to Georgia, and contemplating a Daytona for many years, I flew to Philadephia in May, took delivery of a fly yellow/tan 1973 Daytona, put our bags in the trunk and drove it down the Blue Ridge Parkway, through the Smokey Moutains and followed the almost southern route across the count5ry to San Diego where it resides with it's later brother 456MGT 1999. The car is much more involving than a new car, no surprise there. What was a surprise is that once we were comfortable that it wasnt going to suffer some nasty trouble, say about four hours into the trip, we drove it hard and as if it was just a car. In the early morning in West texas I drove it 125MPH for almost two hours, saw maybe ten cars, no police. These are tough cars and do not need to be babied. In fact it responds to positive input, not tentitive efforts. the airconditioning[after sevicing] is adequate in warm temperature, say up to 95, if you are moving. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 393 Registered: 12-2001 |
This is the kind of rhetorical question to which there is no "correct" response, although i agree with virtually everything said: * modern ferraris are too fat and lux (yeah,WSawyer, i think it would be great to have a more stripped down street car, the closest i came, ferrariwise, was a 512 BBi and it was still a bit of a hog) * driving a little, lite car at close to the limit can be great fun; i had a blast with those Skippy B. "Formula Jr." cars at Limerock; i also get a kick out of our slightly overboosted WRX * I really hate power steering, and since i rarely parallel park my F car, i guess i could put up with very low power assist, except where needed for parking. BTW, an acquaintance took me out for a blast in his new Z06 and while i have never been smitten by late corvettes, i gotta tell ya, this thing not only launched, but kept most of it on the road with very little tire spin. That kind of performance at a price point tells me that there is some magic to be had by a purpose-built car. I am not insane enough or rich enough to get involved in constructing such a car, but a street legal version of that Elise (340R ?) track car would be a hoot. (And yes, ELI, it was). Regards, everybody... | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2002 |
I think this is why Miatas are so popular. It seems like you are doing a zillion mph on that twisty country road, while in reality you're not much over the speed limit! I have been a life long Corvette guy, but the newer ones can only be driven to advantage on the race track. Trundling around at road-safe speeds in one feels boring. That's why I bought the "Mighty GT4" (tm).  | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 323 Registered: 2-2002 |
So, what should Ferrari do to bring the thrill back? Build bare bones versions of current offerings, or something different? | ||
| David White (Dwhite)
New member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ken, I agree with what you said. I have a '69 TVR Vixen S-2 w/ a 2.0 liter 170 HP motor. The car weights 1680 lbs so I know what you mean by light weight no frills sports cars. On the other hand, the 308 will destroy it on anything which is not a very twisty tight stretch and you are right you can drive for long miles and not feel beat to death. | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
New member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ross, In 10,000 miles in two Ferraris I've only been stuck once. Last month WWoC put in a new electronic ignition system in the Daytona and the old wires got fried after 25 miles. They came to pick me up and now with new wiring the car runs better than new. I find the old cars pretty reliable (knock, knock). I guess that you probably can get stuck with a new Ferrari once every 10K miles also. Rijk | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 136 Registered: 1-2002 |
Whart, Personally, I think its not that the cars limits are to high, although for the street they may be, it's that the cars, at least most of the modern one's have lost the edge and feel of a "sports" car. All but a few have forsaken that visceral component of driving, for the mediocracy packaged in with convience and comfort. I think part of the enjoyment of older cars is the lack of creature comforts, or whatever. Although, don't get me wrong, Ferrari's and all other modern sports cars alike are still the top tier, but maybe just a little influence by the consumers desires and not the drivers needs? So, maybe, rather than ripping around in a vintage Ferrari-although no one would argue w/ you for it-what you need maybe is a purpose built car; something that only comes w/ the bare essentials, something that captures what you've already found on the bike. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 472 Registered: 10-2001 |
My 72 Europa is about as bare bones as a street car should be, with all the thrills of a race car (save rocket acceleration off the line) and with it's 1500 pound weight it's easy to throw through turns. OTOH, working AC, fuel injection, etc. makes life a LOT easier for a daily driver, as well as modern HP standards. I consider (most) Ferraris luxury sports cars. They are not race cars inspite of all the racecar inspired designs. They are too heavy in stock form to compete with a true race car in the same class. On a trip of any length, I would bet almost any Ferrari would be much more comfortable than my car is, as well as much faster in a straight line. A luxury GT. 50's Ferraris were race cars, as is the F 40. So I agree with Whart that there are two different thrills from the old technology as opposed to the new and I think both are great. It just depends on what you want to get out of driving. | ||
| David White (Dwhite)
New member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2002 |
IMHO - the old cars are fun and the new cars are fun. Most of the problems lie with people who: 1) should not be doing what they do on the road - no experience with high performance cars and never heard of hitting the apex, heal toe or any other technique for spirited fun in a corner. 2) Think that the car is a race car. Wrong, ferrari's are mostly GTs - they are relativly heavy, but have wonderful chassis to give great feedback. You can push any car hard in tighter corners and get great sensation. It's the long sweepers with decreasing radius that will bite you every time. Being safe is best for all of us. I drive fast sometimes but, I have seen more jerks driving so far over their heads it scares me - usually in an Acura with mega bass blasting. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2002 |
A lot of us would have more fun drifting around a turn at 0.7 Gs than driving around the same turn at 1.0 Gs. At 0.7 Gs of maximum cornering, if you make a mistake (like getting into a corner to hot), you scrub off some speed, and still have plenty of road left to make the turn. At 1.0 Gs, you run off the road and do major damage, so you can't drive at the limits like you could with lesser cars. Since you can't drive (with any semblance of safety) in modern cars, much of the potential can oly be experienced at the track. | ||
| Matthew Jenson (Moab355)
New member Username: Moab355 Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2001 |
I am on the board of directors for the SLC chapter of the Ferrari Owners Club. We go on 300 Miles drives once a month and get a good turn out. On these drives I have driven 355's, 348's and a 328 GTS. I had the most fun in the 328 GTS because I could drive the car 9/10ths in the corners and you are really not going that fast. Where in the 355 you are at 65% and going faster than is safe on the street. I think that there is alot to be said for the fun of driving the older Ferrari's. The limits are much safer on the street and the fall off from those limits are not nearly as hard. You have to love a wide open twisty mountain road and a 328 GTS. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 127 Registered: 4-2002 |
WM This is my sentiment exactly. I used to enjoy having modern and very fast cars for the street, but then I started track driving. When you start racing or doing advanced level track days, you quickly realise what "driving fast" really is. Reality is that you cannot push a 360 or 911 GT2 or any other modern ultra sportscar to even 7 / 10ths on the street. To do so would pretty much guaranty killing someone (probably yourself). If you cant really push hard, whats the point? I much prefer an older sportscar where you can have lots of fun driving it while not going all that fast. My 308 is perfect for this. I hope to have a 512BB sometime in the not too distant future for the same reason. How about this: For the price of a new 360 coupe you could have instead a 512BB, '72 Porsche 911S, '67 Jaguar XKE Roadster, and a ready to race with spares competitive national Formula Ford. You may even be able to throw in a tow vehicle. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Junior Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2002 |
WM, I totaly agree. driving my old TR was much more involving than my 360. Was your car recently on the cover of Forza? Just curious? | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member Username: Ross Post Number: 176 Registered: 3-2002 |
i would disagree. i have had a number of old classics to drive, and although i think some of them were very cool, the thrill was mostly anxiety and worry that the brakes weren't going to give way at a bad moment, or that the skinny tires would hold on, or that the electric overdrive wasn't going to blow (again), that i was going to get home from where i went to without having to call the flatbed, etc. i have changed my mind on collecting and apart from the odd (mostly out of reach) old ferraris, i don't want to own anything made before 1980 anymore. i want good brakes, suspension, safety cells, etc. that allows me to concentrate on the fun of driving without worrying so much about all the other stuff. and it doesn't have to be at 'insane' speeds. a good hill climb is a great driving workout and (as long as there are catchfences) is reasonably safe and slowish. | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
New member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2002 |
I did almost 500 miles this weekend in my Daytona and the AC is a joke, even at full blast (and yes it is working). The windows need to stay open, I was hotter than the car. The oil cooler works wonderful, the fans only come on once in a while, and the sheer driving pleasure is there at any speed. And, because the car is 30 years old the howling intake and exhaust sound is street legal.With modern day Ferrari's you need to do highly illegal things to get the same feeling (I did do 130mph though) | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 322 Registered: 2-2002 |
Today's performance cars are engineered to perform at levels that are way beyond current driving conditions. I think this is why so many people track their cars--it's the only way to experience the thrill that enticed them to buy the car in the first place. Cars like the Lotus Elise are probably the wave of the future. They provide thrills aplenty on or off the track. But then, our expectations have changed haven't they? The Elise clearly outhandled the 360 in the R&T test, but it lost points because it was uncivilized. It wasn't that long ago that sports cars were bare-bones, performance-at-all-cost machines that exchanged power accessories and creature comforts for pure performance, and Road & Track was the bible of the movement. So what happened? Have we changed, or were the toadies at R&T afraid that ranking Lotus ahead of Ferrari would cause them to be scratched from the invitation list for the next journalist's junket to Maranello? | ||
| Randy (Schatten)
Member Username: Schatten Post Number: 332 Registered: 4-2001 |
Definately two different breeds of their own - and those breeds come in a variety of markets. It could be an old fashioned way of brewing beer or restoring an old American muscle car with all the original (or like-original) parts as opposed to new-technology, innovative designs and the creme of the crop for the very next few moments. Soon that new-ness will die, even though it will still be a classic in many years to come. If I had the resources, and a purpose built race car to fill my thrills, I'd definately want a classic over a modern F-or any other car. After a year or two of owning that car, whatever it maybe - I can assure you that I'll know every bolt inside and out of that car. The thrills though, where do they come from? Nostalgic performance, or 10/10th's of the latest rocket on rails from an automotive manufacturer? Its difficult to say. I'll be revisiting this question in about four or five years. Until then, I'll have to stick with the latest rocket on the race track. (sadly enough!) | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 207 Registered: 5-2002 |
The true Gt seat of your pants, drive the car spirit is getting lost in the newer cars.The older cars were crude at best and therfore needed to be driven.All the bells and whistles are lost on me including air conditioning. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 317 Registered: 6-2001 |
I agree. Driving the Dino is much more fun and involving than the 360 | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 550 Registered: 4-2001 |
Wm, you are on to something. There is a difference when it comes to enjoyment and performance. I enjoy flying jets and going Mach .85 and getting places quickly, but the most enjoyment is still in a piston twin engine (also costs 1/6 that of the jet to operate) where you still have to "fly" the airplane. No engine computers, triplcate inverters and hydraulic controls in the piston, just pure skill and know how. I think that is similar to driving a 288GTO or a boxer and then driving the 550. May explain why I have a TR and have no desire to buy a 550 or a 360. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 391 Registered: 12-2001 |
So, i'm in a somewhat philosophical mood, despite the recent heat wave in the NE. It seems to me that the performance limits of the newer cars are so high, that it might be more fun to be driving an older F-car on the streets, lack of good air conditioning notwithstanding. (Forget convenience, like whether you can carry golf clubs, or Aunt Fanny's pot roast, but instead focus purely on the driving experience). I say this, only because in learning how to ride a motorcycle, there is an edge/thrill to the experience, at least for me (yes, one aspect is fear, too), that i don't experience in my cars unless i am going at insane speeds. So, subject to parts availability, and finding a decent mechanic, why not a boxer or a daytona rather than some euro 550, just to save a few bucks? |