| Author | Message | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2002 |
Richard, how did the 333SP compare to the Challenge cars you have driven? Have you ever tracked an F40? I think everyone would be interested to know how they stand up.  | ||
| Richard L. Diasio (Putpark)
New member Username: Putpark Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2001 |
As a track owner customers occasionally let me drive their cars and two years ago Bobby Brown let me drive his red #2 333SP at speed in exchange for a lower price for use of the track. It was everything you would expect a racing Ferrari to be; quick and fast with magnificent brakes. Those of you familiar with Putnam Park know there is only one low speed turn,#7 and coming out of that turn in second gear I was actually pressed back into the seat.I never felt anything like it. The shifter is easy to use and, of course, you don't use the clutch once you're on the track. The one thing I could not get used to was sitting on the right side of the car and looking at the high left side fender. As a little guy (5' 8") it was difficult to see the apex of left handers because my vision was blocked by the fender. It was one terrific ride though! | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 322 Registered: 3-2002 |
OK, maybe Miata a with slicks is a better idea! But thank god we are talking about cars again! I am sure there is a good reason these F1 cars are "cheap". I think Jon is probably right that the 333SP is going to be slightly more forgiving, but I think it is going to be just out of my reach. The best part of this is the research and the hunt for the right car, even if you find that the "right" car is unobtainable. I am always amazed at the amount of knowledge that exists on this board...... Thanks Chris | ||
| Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Member Username: Eurocardoc Post Number: 338 Registered: 11-2001 |
There is a Benetton F1 car here in Indy and it is a nightmare to think about running. Consider that even the bolts are custom made! A beautiful piece of engineering and very quick, but only designed to go 200 miles between builds, even at amatuer speeds, it needs constant maintenance. My 70's cars, see them at St. Jovite this weekend are more fun, cheaper (around 130K) and can accomadate larger drivers. 1200lbs. and 500 hp. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2373 Registered: 5-2001 |
55,000UK$ sounds like affordable fun! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2372 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jon is such a great addition to this board. I have experience laps here in Palm Beach in my stock 348 and in a 355 Challenge. WHAT A DIFFERENCE. The cornering is so much better with slicks and a wing for downforce. I though we would lose it every time he went into a corner but the car was like glue to the road. This appears to be a great deal to have a toy. I can just not see spending $600,000 or close to an equal car, just ebcause it has the horse on it. http://www.f1-sales.com/euroc.htm | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Junior Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 65 Registered: 3-2002 |
Not be be overly simple about this, but.........if you have played Gran Turismo 3 with an open wheel car, then you can see exactly what Tim is talking about. If you try to make the last turn at Laguna Seca(basically a U-turn) and you are going slowly then you will find the car is harder to manage and will be verrrryy squirley. If you have this game try it out just for kicks. In real life it must take tremendous feel and experience to know where that threshold lies | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1197 Registered: 6-2001 |
From what i've heard driving groud effects cars is scary because you take corners at say 100mph that the car CANT take at 60 because of downforce. In a drag race would a turbo era 4cyl F1 beat current F1 cars? | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 185 Registered: 8-2001 |
Terry is absolutely correct. An F1 car running on half power would still spank any F40 no matter who was driving it. An F40 weighs about 2600-2700 pounds w/ approx. 500 hp. An F1 car weighs around 1100-1200 pounds and makes anywhere from 400 (early 70's model) to 1000= hp (Turbo era cars). Even uncompetitive F1 cars from the early 90's could hit 0-100 in less than 6 seconds and that isn't half the story. It's from 0-150 where the performance is earth shattering. A UK magazine tested Senna's Williams car (the one with traction control) and it hit 0-150 in something like 9 1/2 seconds. The F40 would just be hitting 100 mph at this time. I race in SCCA and have friends who race openwheeled cars. Just to give you some perspective on hp to weight figures. A Skip Barber open wheeled Formula Dodge w/ a Dodge Neon engine in it (150 hp) can lap Lime Rock nearly three seconds faster than the fastest F355 Challenge cars (57 sec. vs. 1:00 minute). A Formula Continental (looks like an F3 car or smaller Indy car) with a 150 hp 2.0 liter Ford motor would be nearly 10 seconds quicker. A Toyota Atlantic w/ 4 cylinder 256 hp engine is nearly 13 seconds quicker and all this is on a track that is only 1.47 miles long. At a track like VIR, Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, or Laguna those cars would kill an F40 and equal or better an F40 LM on the smaller tracks. Now imagine the difference between an F40 and one of those cars with another 400-500 hp. The F40 Lm that ran a few races in the old IMSA series back in 1990 (Drivenb by Alesi, Van de Pole and some other French guy) ran 1:23's at Mid-Ohio (LM has about 600-650 hp in sprint car form). The fastest ever CART lap was Dario Franchitti at 1:05. That's nearly 20 seconds faster than the F40 LM. Imagine stepping out of a street F40 and than getting into a F1 car. If you have the balls to do it, great, I would probably end up killing myself. That being said, if you want to buy an openwheeled race car you had better damn well have years of racing and track experience on hand. Open wheeled cars, especially those with ground effects can only be driven effectively at or close to the limit. And bad errors you can get away with in a 3200 pound road car will get you killed in an open wheeled Formula car. The biggest issue is weight transfer. The first time I went from driving a Spec Racer (closed wheel car w/ no ground effects or wings) to a Formula Continental I spun several times because I lifted off the throttle in turns where a road car or closed wheel racer mearly got some easily corrected oversteer. I also ran into problems under braking because I did not have the confidence to take corners nearly flat out. In a Formula Atlantic or Formula Continental you brake lightly and get on the throttle imediately. If you don't you lose all grip and downforce and the car starts to break loose. When you lift off on a Indy car or F1 car you suddenly lose 1500 pounds of downfoce while the weight is being shifted forward and you are in trouble. The 333SP isn't easy to drive either but I would say it's a hell of a lot more forgiving than a full blown ground effects F1 car. If you can drive an F1 car you shouldn't be looking for a track car, you should be looking for a ride in Indy cars or ALMS. Oh yeah, I guess I don't need to mention the costs associated with hiring a pit crew for either a 333 or an F1 car. You need at least one person just to start those damn cars. Their batteries are about the size of a large cell phone. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Kelly J. Vince (Tifosi1)
Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 277 Registered: 2-2002 |
Come to Madewood in October. But, I really doubt that Mr. Risi will let you drive one of his cars. Here's some pics.     | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 129 Registered: 4-2002 |
Matthew, I believe that an F40, even a highly modified F40 would pretty much get spanked by any '90's F1 car. Even a lowly Minardi. Comparing a full size, street derived car to a single seat race car is like comparing a street car to a street bike. Different league. Even a Minardi with a de-tuned engine (like a Cosworth) would still be a 1200lb car with 500 hp. Serious hardware! I have seen a fair number of these ex- F1 cars driven at HSR and other vintage events. Its usually pretty funny, as the cars obviously have WAY more speed potential the the drivers have balls or ability. A few of the guys are pretty quick, but most take it real easy and unleash them in a straight line only. I would KILL to get a drive in one. Then again im 6'2" and 230lb so its not likely... | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 326 Registered: 2-2002 |
So, maybe it would be a good idea to provide the URL... http://www.carsinternational.com/ | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 325 Registered: 2-2002 |
Just to complicate your life a little more, here's another site, and THIS Schumi Benneton has an engine. Hey, what the heck, the devil made me do it... | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 321 Registered: 3-2002 |
WOW...... Bill you are bad influence! Schumachers 1991 Benetton is too cool (and way cheap) I wonder what a motor will run $30K? Got to figure what the age cut off is for vintage racing a Formula One cars is...... Still want a 333SP, but................. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 324 Registered: 2-2002 |
You can get a non-Ferrari F1 relatively cheap. Here's a link to a few of them: http://www.f1-sales.com/stock.htm | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 1830 Registered: 12-2000 |
Chris, have you e-mailed me yet what color window banners you want? Here's a thread from when we considered it before... http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/13911/11528.html | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 1829 Registered: 12-2000 |
The 80's turbo F1 cars only go for $250 to 400k. | ||
| Matthew Jenson (Moab355)
New member Username: Moab355 Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2001 |
I bet you can buy an F1 car for $500,000.00 just not a Ferrari F1 car. You could buy like a Minardi but I am pretty sure your F40 will smoke it. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 320 Registered: 3-2002 |
Thanks for your posts........ I had heard WWOC had a new one........ I guess the market is stronger than I thought, I realize those are only asking prices, but I wonder if $500,000 is totally unrealistic? As to a F1 car, not sure about that, but I would consider looking, but $500,000 is a real stretch............... | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1192 Registered: 6-2001 |
Wide World of Cars is the dealership with the new one for sale. They wanted 750,000 for it i beleive. | ||
| Matthew Jenson (Moab355)
New member Username: Moab355 Post Number: 29 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ferrari of Beverly hills has a 333SP for sale. It is completely gone through and priced at $750,000.00 or you could spend 1.1 million and buy Michael Schumachers Monaco winning 97 F310 from Symbolic Motors and that is a full running current F1 car with spares. I think it is a no brainer.....You can really be Michael Schumacher in a grand prix winning F1 car. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2367 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think you would be better of buying a Formular One car from a few years back for that kind of money. They must be more fun, same hassle to maintain and fast as hell. There was a F1 in Moroso this year and last Sebring the owner of the 1993 or 1994 F1 from Jean Alesi's car had his baby there, for show only because the engine was overhauled by Ferrari in Italy. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 302 Registered: 8-2001 |
I was at the Pocono event, and there were 2 333's... Great cars- amazing sound- but it couldn't quite keep up with the Porsche 962 there. If you want an amazing car- 0-60 in sub 3, top speed of over 210 and street legal too (depends on the model)- you should look into the 962. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 494 Registered: 4-2002 |
cmparrf40 did you see my post for availability?? bruce | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 319 Registered: 3-2002 |
Andrew, $600,000+ does seem to be the number, the operating costs could get interesting. I would probably only track it 4 or 5 times a year and not too aggresivly. I do have a transporter and all of the equipment for the track however. Oh, well if it was easy to obtain, I would not want it... need to set my goals just out of reach! | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Junior Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 130 Registered: 10-2001 |
i think they go for 600 000$ + and maybe much more for the JMB/Momo/Risi ones as they have incredible history.. But buying one is one thing , tracking them is another no? what would it cost to just have fun with them ? If the 360 challenge is so expensive i can only wonder ! But that must be the ultimate track day car ! Live your dreams ! | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 318 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jon, I was hoping for something around $500,000. I have seen a couple around $650,000 so I may be dreaming........ I was thinking that perhaps a .commer might be in trouble... I'll look on ebay see what they are going for! lol | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 492 Registered: 4-2002 |
cmparrf40 i went to a tech session at wwoc in spring valley, ny, and thee were 5 of them sitting in the garage..i dont know if they were for sale, but you can try calling them, 914 area code hope this helps a little | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 183 Registered: 8-2001 |
Chris, I have never driven one but have been on the track with them many times. There were three of them at the last FOC event at Watkins Glen. One is owned by Benny Caiola and Peter Cox owned the other one (can't remember who owned the third one). I also have been on the track with the #3 Momo car at Summit Point several times. the market value of these cars is all over the map. With the recent downdraft in the economy I can't be sure what they would sell for but back in 2000 a 333SP with little or no race history was sold for $850,000. That same year the #3 Momo car that won the 12 hours of Sebring and the 24 Hours of Daytona at the hands of Moretti sold for nearly twice that amount. The cars are very fast with about 600-650 hp. Benny and Peter don't push their 333SP's to hard and at the last event were doing 2:00 minutes flat in their cars. In the hands of a professional driver a sub 1:50 would be easily attainable. The Grand Am LM900's were doing close to 1:40's flat at the Glen 6 hour enduro a few weeks ago. Just for comparison sake a Challenge car will do 2:03 (360C) and 2:06 (355C). The maintenance would be a nightmare on these things and replacement parts would prove to be a hassle. Hope this helps! Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 457 Registered: 10-2001 |
cmparrf40 what is the ball park figure you think they would go for? I'm guessing, and this is just a guess, between $500-750K for a racing history car. Then again I could be way off! | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 316 Registered: 3-2002 |
I have alays loved these cars, I was at Texas World 5 years ago when Risi Racing had one of their cars practicing........... I will never forget it. I looked in the Market letter today and nothing was listed...... I really prefer one with a race history with a nice patina! I understand one of the east coast dealers has a brand new one, I do not think I would be interested in that. The other question is cost....... I have not seen enough to determine the market value, I have an idea, but will have to find a couple to see if I am on the money....... It is so much fun to dream........... every Ferrari I owned started with a dream! | ||
| Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member Username: Owens84qv Post Number: 475 Registered: 10-2001 |
There was that show on Speedvision where Alain DeCadene (spelling?) drove one as his last car. The sound was/is incredible. I listen to that part of the tape over and over and over. Also, when I lived in Virginia, I worked at Virginia International Raceway as a corner worker (F&C). There was a guy who'd bring his for track days. I used to love working at the end of turn one listening to him scream down the front straight. Awesome car! | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 456 Registered: 10-2001 |
The first time I went to Mosport I heard the 333 and it was one of the best sounds I've ever heard! I would love to own one. We'll probably see a few for sale in the next while since nobody is really racing them in endurance races anymore. I wish Ferrari would seriously get back into LeMans with a factory entry. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1191 Registered: 6-2001 |
Just send the kids to a state school. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1190 Registered: 6-2001 |
I heard one being revved from 5 feet away in a garage. My ears were ringing for an hour afterwards but it was so worth it. It sounds like 6 racing superbikes. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Junior Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 237 Registered: 1-2002 |
I drove one for 1 lap on a track in Florida earlier this year...but I was very careful & slow, and didn't get it out of 4th gear. It's like a VERY wide, and FAST, formula Ford--instantaneous brakes, steering, etc. And what a sound track!! | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 288 Registered: 11-2001 |
chris - i own one and you're welcome to take it out anytime for a test drive IF you first post a picture of your ferrari office furniture :-) jk - i don't own one, but i would really like to see the desk :-) doody! | ||
| Mark Izzo (Tdf355)
New member Username: Tdf355 Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2002 |
I have a feeling it will happen!! | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 315 Registered: 3-2002 |
I am sure it will not happen.......... but I can dream. I love 333's but I do not know any one that ownes one......... any help? |