| Author | Message | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2002 |
Here are a few pics of the Brembo "Challenge" rotors. So far I haven't tried to break hard yet but they sure look great. The car handles really well (as asual) I cannot feel a clear difference from the reduced unsprung weight. Maybe next time on the track? ACW   | ||
| Dave Mills (360dave)
Junior Member Username: 360dave Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2002 |
ACW, gates for Thunderhill open at 7:30 am, and we run from about 8:30-4:30, in sessions like most groups run. I live close enough that I just drive up in the morning, but the folks staying the night usually stay at the Golden Pheasant, contact info at http://www.ncracing.org/thunderhill.html It'd be great to see you out there, let me know if there's anything else you need. Dave | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hubert, I'm not sure. There was some photographer taking pictures of all cars at various corners. I believe these pictures were taken at turn #11 Dave, this sounds interesting and safe. I'll likely come on the 4th. At what time the event starts? Are you guys typically staying at the same hotel before the event? ACW | ||
| Dave Mills (360dave)
Junior Member Username: 360dave Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2002 |
ACW, Hubert, and anyone else, you're welcome to join us with the Northern California Racing Club if the days work for you: Sept 4 at Thunderhill and Dec 10 at Laguna Seca are the two open events. http://www.ncracing.org/ Dave | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 145 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dave: No I wasn't aware of FCA renting TH; I'd love to attend, however, I'm not to sure my little Honda race car would be to well recieved, but considering that it will be freshly aligned and cornerweighted this Saturday, I'm itching to get it onto the track. I will be at WillowSpring-big track- on the 9th, and schedule willing also on the 2nd. Need to work out the logistics still; I hate waiting on car parts. ACW: I can't really tell, but if I were to guess your coming into turn 5 at TH; the cyclone, correct? BTW- To anyone having tracked their 360's or other Ferrari's at TH w/ the cyclone, what were you lap times? | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 62 Registered: 2-2002 |
I was at Thunderhill with tracquest last weekend. It was a bit hot but OK with plenty of water. Unfortunetely, I cannot go back this monday. Next time I'll take the 360 ACW http://www.vmgear.com/acw/thunderhill/Drift1.jpg http://www.vmgear.com/acw/thunderhill/Drift2.jpg http://www.vmgear.com/acw/thunderhill/Drift3.jpg | ||
| Dave Mills (360dave)
Junior Member Username: 360dave Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2002 |
Hubert, do you know that the Ferrari club has rented Thunderhill for this coming Monday? I'm not attending, unfortunately, but it could be pretty nice... Dave | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 144 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jack: Point taken; your comments regarding the imporved response of the car I'm assuming you mean during turn-in, cornering, and braking; yes reduction of unsprung weight is amazing! Since I've never tracked a 360 I personally cannot comment on the brakes and their quality; although I'd love the opportunity! In my personal experience just changing pads, to something like Portefield R4's or Carbotech P+'s made a night and day difference in pedal feel, and allowed much, much deeper brake points, not to mention increased the fun factor. Any chance that you'll be attending any track days in the coming future; in California? | ||
| Jack Fried (Jack360)
New member Username: Jack360 Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2001 |
Hugh: I haven't changed the stock brake ducting. I agree with you that this should probably be done to any car for which extensive track use is planned. For me, the Brembo 2-piece Challenge-style rotors have worked fine with the stock ducting, given my style of driving and occasional track usage. The stock 360 brakes are excellent, IMHO, and these replacement rotors make them better. Interestingly enough (and perhaps wishful thinking), the car felt more responsive and precise after I made the change to the new rotors -- this was a pleasant surprise and I'm assuming this is due to the reduction of unsprung weight by approx. 8 lbs. per corner. Besides, the 2-piece rotors with aluminum hats look cool.  | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 143 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jack, But irrespective of having a more effectivly vaned rotor, have you improved the pathway for the air to get to the rotor; larger brake ducts? Shouldn't this be a prime concern? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 142 Registered: 1-2002 |
ACW, No matter what pads you put on a car, unless they have been broken-in by the manufacturer, you MUST break them in properly in order to extract the maximum performance from them. OEM pads come broken-in that's why you can hammer them immediately and not really hurt them. Performance pads on the other hand, are usually not broken-in. Pad break-in varies between brands, but usually consists of warming the pads thru a series of 40-15mph slow downs with 15-30 seconds in between. After this has been done the pads should be allowed to cool completely. Then you can proceed to heat them up again by doing 60-15 slowdowns and again letting them cool completely. After you have done this the pads should be ready for higher temps and severe braking conditions. The best way to do this is to read the manufacturers break-in spec sheet and follow it to the letter. If you overheat the pads before they have had a chance to heat cycle a few times the pad material will usually wear very quickly, and you won't get the same life from them. Your pads should come w/ break-in instructions; the above is just rule of thumb. Hubert | ||
| Jack Fried (Jack360)
New member Username: Jack360 Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2001 |
Arnaud: You did a great job on the description. Only point I'd add/clarify is that the "hat" to which the rotor attaches(through use of 10 Brembo float bushings)is a floating aluminum hat -- just like the arrangement used on the F50 brake setup. Also, these rotors have curved vanes (rather than pillar/straight vanes) which flow more air than the stock rotors. | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2002 |
I did talk with Barry Borin from Race Technologies. He is indeed an expert on the subject. As Jack said the Brambo "Challenge rotors" are improved rotors for the 360, not 360 C rotors. My dealer was quite confused about this. Benefits are: (almost a repeat from Jack's post) - better heat dissipation thanks to a different design and the use of some alluminium for the inner part - since it is a 2 part rotor, only 1 part needs to be replaced when used hence they are cheaper down the road if you track your car often. The part that is replaced is only about $300 per rotor. To fix ideas, a stock 360 rotor costs $900 - They are 7-8 pounds lighter. That's per wheel! This significantly reduces the wheel rotation inertia during acceleration or breaking. (unsprung weight) The price is $3495 for the package (4 rotors). Brambo pads are $377 per axle. I mention this site / thread to Barry and encouraged him to post. Barry, if you read this feel free to add or correct me. I ended up purchasing the new rotors from my dealer. It turns out they advised me to change the 2 front rotors. I'm not sure if this is really necessary but I find it risky to be cheap on break components when tracking a car. The dealer is charging me $4500 for all 4 rotors and 4 pads. This $246 more than buying direct but a lot more practical. Labor is about 3 hours. Barry recommended to change pads at the same time. I guess I now need some recomendation regarding how to break-in new rotor and pads. Any pointer on this is appreciated! ACW | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
New member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2002 |
This might be of interest from http://www.teamscr.com/rotors.htm Crossdrilling Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the 40's and 50's, not a whole lot. Rotors were first drilled because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures ; a process known as gassing out. These gasses then formed a thin layer between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and effectively lowering the coefficient of friction. The holes were implemented to give the gasses somewhere to go. It was an effective solution, but today's friction materials do not exhibit the same gassing out phenomenon as the early pads. For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design feature than a performance feature. Contrary to popular belief they don't lower temperatures (in fact, by removing weight from the rotor, the temperatures can actually increase a little), they create stress risers allowing the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads; sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. (Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it.) The one glaring exception here is in the rare situation where the rotors are so oversized (look at any performance motorcycle or lighter formula car) that the rotors are drilled like Swiss cheese. While the issues of stress risers and brake pad wear are still present, drilling is used to reduce the mass of the parts in spite of these concerns. Remember nothing comes for free. If these teams switched to non-drilled rotors, they would see lower operating temperatures and longer brake pad life at the expense of higher weight. It;s all about trade-offs. | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 59 Registered: 2-2002 |
Jack, Jon, I'll try to call Race Technologies tomorrow and will mention this site. It is pretty clear the term challenge is used as a marketing tool. I'll take notes and summarize Thanks! Arnaud | ||
| Jack Fried (Jack360)
New member Username: Jack360 Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jon: I'm sure your knowledge on this topic is far more extensive than mine. The description "challenge rotor" is probably a misnomer. A more appropriate designation might be "challenge-style" rotor/floating hat setup. They're designed to work with the stock 360 calipers. I purchased my set from Barry at Race Technologies. BTW, with this setup you can specify slotted vs cross drilled rotors. Perhaps, we can get Barry to post here and explain this 360 upgrade -- it does work well on the street. He's really the expert. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 186 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jack, I also dealt with Barry at Race Tech when getting my F40/F50 Brembo kit for my street 355. They know everyting about Ferrari's and will answer all your questions. That being said there is a lot of confusion over what constitutes "Challenge" rotors. The actual Challenge rotors used on a 360 C have never been cross drilled (see picture below). If memory serves me correct they also would not fit the stock calipers on a street 360. Both the 355 and the 360 C have much larger calipers and much wider rotors. If your rotors truly are "drilled Challenge" rotors then they can only be off of the 355 C. I have seen 360 Challenge cars at track events with drilled rotors but the actual cars run in the series were using non-drilled rotors. Make sure when you buy rotors you know what you are getting. I know of two dealers that were marketing their rotors as "Challenge" rotors when in fact they were not. Hope this helps! Regards, Jon P. Kofod 360 Challenge brake rotor (can get the image to upload, click on link) http://www.gogoracing.com/images/rs/frc01roat/frc01roat082.jpg | ||
| Jack Fried (Jack360)
New member Username: Jack360 Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2001 |
Arnaud: You have received some great info in the previous posts, but the Brembo "challenge rotor" package is far more than just rotors and a substantial improvement over the stock setup. While the rotor component of the package is the same size as stock, the internal venting and cross drilling of these rotors are superior to stock. Also, these rotors come out of Brembos' racing program with superior construction and metallurgy than the stock rotors. Most importantly (and the costly component) is the fact that the rotors come with aluminum floating (ala F1) hats, which not only aid in cooling (much better heat dissipation than the stock cast iron hats) but also reduce unsprung weight significantly (approx 6.5-7 lbs. per corner). If you're going to do some significant track time, this reduction in unsprung weight will result in less stress on your wheel bearings and hub assemblies. In addition, the cost of these "challenge" rotors as a replacement item is far less than the dealer charges for stock Ferrari 360 rotors. Too bad the dealer has no idea what he's selling, and $5000 sounds quite high. You should contact Race Technologies at 310-306-3158, ask for Barry Borin. He can give you accurate info regarding the many advantages of the "challenge rotor" setup and much better pricing. Jack  | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 56 Registered: 2-2002 |
Jon, Thanks for the information, it is truly appreciated. The sales guy at the service dept this morning did not know what he was talking about. The rotors he was trying to sell were drilled. They looked a bit larger than the stock rotors. It is pretty scary the amount of BS a service rep can serve to make a few extra bucks. ACW | ||
| Patrick (Patrickr)
New member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2002 |
Lots of good info in this post... Patrick | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 184 Registered: 8-2001 |
ACW, I read your post. 5K for what you have described is ridiculous!! Basically it sounds like they are trying to sell you the Challenge rotors ( $800-$900 each) and upgrade the pads. Using the 360 Challenge rotors with stock 360 calipers won't do a whole lot, even with a larger surface area on the rotor. The other post are correct in that you can get better brake ducting installed for a whole lot cheaper and have better results. I own a 355 Challenge and run with a bunch of folks with 360 Challenge cars and can tell you that you do not want Challenge brakes on your car for street use. They are impossible to warm up for street use and overkill for track use unless you are really punishing the car. There are also huge problems with both the 355 and the 360 Challenge brake systems. The 355 Challenge brakes were taken directly off the 333SP's and F40 LM's and the rotors are very prone to cracking. This was a constant problem during the Challenge series when the 355's were running. Part of the problem was inadequate brake duct cooling on the 355's. With the 360's they ran in to different problems. With the 360 Challenge car they designed a superior brake cooling duct system and therefore went to a smaller rotor that was not cross-drilled. Because it was not cross drilled the cracking problem was eliminated but persistent rotor warpage became a huge problem. So much so that the Challenge racers petitioned FNA and Ferrari in Italy to supply free rotors and improve the design. The rotors on a 360 Challenge will last one weekend at best, a day and half at it's worst. Most teams were going through two sets of rotors per weekend. If your racing and trying to win, you spend the money and replace your rotors when needed (same with tires as most teams discard the tires after each session). For track events this is way too expensive and time consuming. On my 355 C I can get three or four weekends before the rotors are toast. First thing is get steel brake lines, ATE Super Blue (or Motul 600) brake fluid with a higher boiling point and a good set of race pads that you can swap out at the track. If you still find you need more than look at a complete brake upgrade from Brembo. On my street 355 I upgraded the stock brakes to a Brembo kit that came with f40 and f50 calipers. It gave me performance that was somewhere half way between the stock brakes and the Challenge brakes. The Brembo kit costs about $7000 (front and rear) and the 355 Challenge kit when it was still being sold was around $10,000. My advice about bedding rotors and pads is to make sure you do it right. Ferrari of Washington's Challenge team actually came up with a device to bed pads and rotors in (a machine that spun the rotor and bedded the pad in) and found that their rotors lasted nearly 50% longer when bedded properly. First thing to do is leave the old rotors on and put the new pads on (assuming your old rotors are wearing out and are to be replaced). Bed them in good, then put the new rotors on last with the new pads bedded in. Hope this helps! Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2002 |
Thanks a lot for all the answers. I'll definitely pass on the offer... I think I'm going to try some race pad first and then, I'll follow your advice about the cooling ducts. Laguna Seca is pretty hard on breaks and during the last sessions, breaking was a bit soft. I had to press the pedal further to get to the same breaking effect. There was a bit of spongy feel before having real break effect. The picture in my profile was taken at Laguna Seca during the last SF Lotus club track day. I believe the shot was taken right after the corkscrew. Thanks! ACW | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Junior Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 239 Registered: 1-2002 |
ACW, here's my advice, FWIW: instead of shelling out 5 grand for new brakes on a car that has VERRRRRRY good brakes (that are made by Brembo) already, have your dealer, or any reputable speed shop that deals with Ferraris, Porsches, etc., install cool air ducts to the front brakes. They were on the 355s, but for some reason (cost cutting, IMO), Ferrari did NOT put them on the 360. They can get air from the upper or lower outside areas of the radiator inlets. This, alone, will make a HUGE difference on the track, and should cost less that $300, I'm guessing. I would try this first, and see if you notice a difference. The problem with putting Challenge brakes on a street car is that they don't work well at all when cold, they take a LOT of heat to getto temp, so good freakin' luck on a cold day on the street, they squeal like a mother, and they eat up pads very fast. That's why they are put on track-only cars. Bottom line: don't help your dealer's bottom line; just get some cool air to those front rotors. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 137 Registered: 1-2002 |
ACW, Whats so special about these pads/rotors? Are the rotors larger diameter? 2 piece? What? Ask all these question befor replacing them, as all rotors are ventialled and if they are of the same diameter will NOT provide any added benefit. What about the pads, whats the difference b/w these and the coefficent of friction b/w the stock pads? Ask! Old rule of thumb, never ever bed new pads w/ new rotors, especially race pads, the surfaces are incompatible, if anything bed the new pads on your old rotors, and then get new rotors installed. However, do you even need new rotors? Do you feel a vibration under heavy braking? Anything? If not, your dealers is trying to take you for a ride, and an expensive one. As an aside, all that you do to the brake system, be it rotors, calipers, pads, etc. does not aid in stoping the car, only in improving pedal feel, fade resistance, and braking consistnecy, period. The only thing actually working to stop the car is the tire compound, if you can properly lock up your tires, your brake system is fine, if your experiencing mild fade and a soft pedal when tracking, look into braided brake lines, higher temp fluids, and possibly some race pads for the track, otherwise your just adding pretty parts. Lastly, if you want better cooling for your fronts, and your dealer forgot to mention this of course, look into increasing or adding larger front brake ducts to your 360, this among other addons, is what increase the 360c's brake threshold. Bottom line, sounds to me like the dealer is trying to make some extra money. Email me if you need any more refernces on the topic. Hope this helps, -Hubert PS- Nice shot in your profile, corkscrew at Laguna, correct? | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 994 Registered: 9-2001 |
yes, if you track you car though not sure if will effect you street use. not sure if the price is right either | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 51 Registered: 2-2002 |
I dropped my 360 for its 5K service this morning. I have also requested a break fluid change and the dealer proposed me to also replace the break rotors with some Brembo break rotor + pads. I'm told these are the one used on the 360 Challenge and provide better breaking because of superior cooling. The total cost including labor is around 5K I track my car about once every other month. Do you think this would make sense to do this? Would this truly provide me with better breaks? Thanks for any opinion. ACW |