| Author | Message | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 643 Registered: 12-2001 |
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR so tonight while driving a 355 I have a mother give me the dirtiest look....I was going slow by her and her family (they were on the street not sidewalk) I can't believe it! and then another lady starts going off on me..... I wasn't speeding......the car may have sounded faster at low gear.......I am VERY careful and a trained driver. I was furious with these attitudes - such stupid stupid...maybe jealous people | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 76 Registered: 3-2002 |
"Racer why do your friends get upset when they see you driving a nice car? Curious." i was being a bit sarcastic. Seriously though, if my friends saw me in a 550 they would be a bit jealous. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 580 Registered: 4-2001 |
Think Art is correct on the sequence of events. Really unneccessary as I would gladly share my car and airplane with others. It is them that "shut" themselves off by being not nice in the first place. He is also correct probably that Ferrari owners either have or have access to airplanes. It makes sense as the Ferrari is way cheaper to have than the airplane. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 531 Registered: 6-2001 |
Willis: They start out being jealous of our cars, and when the find we also have a plane, they get really pissed. I'd bet that a good percentage of the people who own Ferraris have a plane or access to one. Art | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 800 Registered: 8-2001 |
Checked out the Eclipse site. The Eclipse 500 seems like an interesting airplane and I really liked their ideas. Guy who started the company is ex-Microsoft. Bill Gates is said to be one of the major investors. Funny how this thread went from people jealous of our Ferraris to airplanes.  | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 266 Registered: 8-2001 |
I am running behind, but I wanted to make a few additional quick comments. Years and years ago, I was reading an aviation magazine article about an air race � I believe to Oshkosh. The Officials Plane was the King Schools Cessna Citation Jet. I am sure it was slowed down. The Judges were surprised that a piston single engine plane called the Lance Air was overtaking the Citation Jet. I wondered what is a Lance Air. Also maybe this is a field, plane, and company I should follow. I do not know the current cruise of a Citation, but the current cruise of a single engine PropJet Lancair is probably close. I am not in the market for a jet and have not followed the market except for the Eclipse and Safire. I assumed that the current entry level Citation Single Pilot (SP) jet is about $5,000,000 � it could be more. This assumes that insurance allows SP operation. The Citations are also great planes. There are times that the prestige, space, Trans-Atlantic/Trans-Pacific capabilities of larger jets are needed. However, for the average business trip, the Eclipse seems to have much going for it. The Safire does not appear to be as far along as the Eclipse. Hopefully it will also make it. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 265 Registered: 8-2001 |
I am a very loyal AOPA member, but I have to agree with Art on this one. However, I am sure there have been abuses on both sides. A Cessna 182 is a good small business plane. However, ones that were made 40 to 50 years apart have virtually the same performance numbers. I guess there were no engineering advances in the last 40 to 50 years. If the auto industry were general aviation, there would be no Ferrari and we all would be driving Model Ts. However, the 2003 Model T would have a nicer pin stripe. There are many exciting advances being made in aviation, but virtually none of it is being done by large, old companies. Besides Eclipse, a few of the new companies are www.lancair.com, www.seastarplane.com, Vans RV series (don�t remember the URL), etc. All of these have no shortage of orders, I believe the Lancair Legacy 2000 has a two year backlog of orders. They cannot make them fast enough. Yet old companies selling 50 year old aviation technologies have problems selling planes. I think this is the real reason for the aviation slump. With �Tort Reform� old companies like Mooney and Piper are still struggling for survival, while these new companies cannot produce planes or plane kits fast enough. These new companies are financially successful (of course not all of them). Cessna came out with a model called the 177 that was underpowered. Engineering should have shown it; however, one test flight would have shown it. The Pilots Operating Handbook (POH) was a work of fiction. Only after people died and lawsuits were won did Cessna increase the power and revised the POH. If you were a new pilot, did not know the history, bought one of the first ones, and your wife and kids died, should you have the right to sue Cessna because you relied on the POH? From what I have read, the V-tail first develops a flutter or vibration that cannot be controlled. Then the tail comes off. Then the whole plane normally disintegrates. This was covered up for many years. Must be a horrible way for you and the people who trusted you to die: plane comes apart around you and then a long drop. Should people have a right to sue over this coverup and the original false certification? If there were no lawsuits, would any corrective action have been taken? Should there be a time limit on this apparently deliberate actions of false certifications and cover-ups. Have all the problems been solved? I have not followed the corrective actions since I know I will never step foot in a V-tail. Recently while waiting in a doctor�s office for a flight physical, I was thumbing through a magazine. An article was saying that some hospitals were no longer covering up doctors� mistakes. If a mistake was made, the hospital admitted it and stated what corrective action was being taken to prevent mistakes like that in the future. If needed, a cash settlement was made. Not only did this save time, but their costs dropped drastically. One thing I have noticed is that these new companies normally have one driving person who loves aviation (something similar to Ferrari?). If a mistake is made, it is admitted and corrective action is taken. They are trying for an outstanding product. I find this refreshing. For an old company, it has worked for 40, 50 years, so why change it. It is a product, not an act of love. Tort attorneys are needed to keep these old companies a little honest. Even then, they are not very honest. I do not know this field, but I would think that a jury is likely to award less if a company admits mistakes up front and takes corrective action compared to a company that tries to hide the mistakes and takes NO corrective action. I would think these new companies will have less problems with lawsuits. On the Eclipse, I am sure there will be some issues to work out, but they have admitted their mistakes so far and taken the necessary action. I hope they have no problems with the remaining monies they need. In studies, the average business trip is 500 miles or less and 2 to 4 people. A $850,000 Eclipse will take a few minutes longer than the $5,000,000 plane. The Direct Operating Costs for things like fuel will be 4 to 5 times more expensive for the $5,000,000 plane. The $850,000 plane is state of the art, the $5,000,000 plane is near state of the art. Being state of the art could save those few minutes. For the average business trip, seems like a good deal. If you look at the track record of the people behind Eclipse, it is quite impressive. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 529 Registered: 6-2001 |
michael: As a "Tort' lawyer I get to differ. That actual facts behind the fall of general aviation are something different than what the industry would like you to hear. My understanding of the insurance problem is that the coverage not was bought on an occurance basis, rather than upon an claims made basis. What this meant that when general aviation sales fell like a lead ballon in the late 70s and early 80s, the cost per airplane skyrocketed, because they were only selling a few airplanes, but insuring a past fleet that numbered in the thousands. That drove the cost of insurance per plane into the high 5 figures or low 6 figures (for piston powered airplanes), further increasing prices. It is interesting to note that when Beech reduced the price of the f33A in the late 80s, the volume doubled. They stopped that practice, and they are now only making a couple hundred A36s per year, and two dozen barons. Given that low volume, the cost is high, a Baron now sells for over 1 Million, the Bonanza for more than 500k. In fact, tort lawyers have done a terrible job of getting compensation for those injuried in planes. A prime example is the Beech v-tail. It didn't meet the government's spec, had a terrible crash rate, and nobody figured it out. Beech must have skated on hundreds of those crashs, but ultimately they got caught, and had to revise the attachments to the tail to make the planes legal. In the crashes before hand, Beech got a great amount of defense verdicts, when if we had known of the tail problem, they wouldn't have. The problem with torts is that we fly expensive people in planes, and therefor if we make a mistake in the manufacture of the plane, etc., it costs a lot to properly compensate the family of those who die in those mistakes. The alternative is that the pilot flying the plane and his estate would be liable to those flying in the plane, and their estate. The tort reform act passed under Clinton, despite the hoopla from the AOPA just transfered the liability from the manufacturer to the operator. It appeared to me that the APOA either represented the manufacturers, or didn't think the process through to conclusion. That is why our plane insurance is either unavailable or so expensive that we think about the cost. A new plane, such as the eclipse, etc. if used to transport passengers will have teething problems, for the simple reason that we generally don't get things right from the jump. That needs to be added into the cost of doing business. I have a simple question about who should bear the risk: Should the innocent passenger and their family bear that risk, or should the operator, manufacturer, repairer or those involved in some manner in the plane's operation, if they are neligent bear the risk? Ovbiously equity requires those who have fault to pay. I seen no better system to ensure that we all get a fair break than that. I don't know of anyother solution to that problem. I'm willing to listen to your thoughts about this. Art | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 576 Registered: 4-2001 |
Without tort reform, the lawyers are going o kill both the esciplse and the safire jets after just one crash. Just my humble opinion. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 264 Registered: 8-2001 |
Personal Jet: when in a hurry before, could not think of their URL. I think these people will pull it off. I believe the first flight is this weekend. The beginning of a new era in aviation. http://www.eclipseaviation.com/ See some of you at Oshkosh. Dave | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 574 Registered: 4-2001 |
Yep, I did offer that to Robert. Sure I'll let you know -- love to fly so all I need is an excuse to go. After 18 years of flying, I sort of runout of places to venture. Flown the whole country etc.... plus with the kids in school I do not like to go far. Like playing with them after school. | ||
| russell rosenblum (Rosenblumr)
New member Username: Rosenblumr Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2002 |
Michael, I saw your post that offered a ride in your plane in exchange for a ride in a 360. Hell, I Live in Maryland (bethesda). I just got my 360 last week. Let me know. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 573 Registered: 4-2001 |
Art, I hope that I did not give the impression that the Citation was not a great machine. For what it was designed for it does a fantastic job. Its just slow. I agree with you on the pricing stuff, in fact, do not be surprised if I join you in a Citation 2SP or Citation 1 with Sierra modifications. I don't need a G3 or G4 or even a Falcon. I just love flying airplanes period and want to fly the best. Real simple. From a single pilot point of view, it would be nice to have a 360 knot machine Citation 2 or 5 that I can launch off in by myself without another pilot. But for now i will stick with the other jets to get the experience. The guys I fly with are just phenomonal pilots. Michael | ||
| Todd Gieger (Todd328gts)
New member Username: Todd328gts Post Number: 20 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have only owned my Ferrari for 6 weeks and you really DO find out what people are genuinely happy for you and those who are not... or those who think that you bought it to flaunt money...or those who suddenly expect more from you, etc...In the end, I bought the car not to impress people but b/c it really was the most fun car I have ever driven and b/c I had always liked them, etc... | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 523 Registered: 6-2001 |
Don: I like the idea of a T38, but the cost is outrageous. The last one that I saw on the market was 3 million. Way too much money. There was an F5, two seater at Santa Ana for less. Given that the T38 is a detuned F5, the F5 was a far better deal, and much faster. However, I'll stick with the L39C. Cost under 500k, does everything that the T38 can do legally, and the operating costs under 150K per year (Fixed costs that is) I don't have the need for a large jet like Michael does (nor the income to support it), but I have ridden in a few and I like the G4 the best. The smaller Citations are about right for me, and I have been looking around for a 73 through 80 with good times, priced right. With this recession/depression, there is a substantial drop in the prices for the older 500, 550 series Citations, and when the right one comes by, I think I'll take the plunge. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member Username: Ross Post Number: 190 Registered: 3-2002 |
frankly, i would not be friends with anybody who harbored such jealousy. envy is one thing, and we are all envious of somebody somewhere, but that is a positive emotion of respect and admiration. jealousy is severely negative and i avoid those types at all costs. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 572 Registered: 4-2001 |
Explains why I purposely keep so few friends. Damn sure not going to let the limitations of others stop me from enjoying myself. Frankly, I don't get it and that's good that I do not. Tim, We save the serious manuevers for the full motion simulator. In the real airplane, we climb sometimes at 6,000 feet/minute or practice a couple emergency descents with wingovers to about 100 degress. Other than that it more than enough fun to fly it normally. Now in the simulator anything goes. Michael | ||
| Andrew (Mrrou)
Member Username: Mrrou Post Number: 370 Registered: 3-2002 |
Racer why do your friends get upset when they see you driving a nice car? Curious. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 72 Registered: 3-2002 |
Man, I feel sorry for you guys. I've had people spit at me when I TEST DROVE a C5 Corvette Coupe six speed. I think I'd get beat up if my friends saw me in a 550. | ||
| Tim Hogan (Tojo)
New member Username: Tojo Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2002 |
If any of you guys want a flying spanner I'm happy to come over and get my A&P approval. Would be alot more fun than fixing 747/767s for a living. As for a powerful flight, I went on an after maintenance test flight on a 737-400 when I was an apprentice. What a blast that was. There were 10 people on board and the pilots gave it all it had, full throttle and max angle of attack takeoff, followed by plenty of side slipping, 60-70 degree banked turns and all the other cool stuff the authorities will let you do in an empty commercial aircraft. I love that feeling when the A/C is turning so hard you can't move in your seat. The aircraft failed the test flight too. Micheal, do you guys do any way out manoevers in your jets for fun? Semi acrobatics in a Falcon would be a blast. My mate flys a lear and a G4 but because he's a freelance pilot he can't get too carried away. I look forward to the day he gets to take me cruising in a bizjet. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 571 Registered: 4-2001 |
Don, Welcome to the discussion. The Falcon 50 has a different mission than the G2 or G3. The 3 engines makes it more of a "continuous" transatlantic machine. And while the cabin is bigger, my family is total of 4 and the G3 or G4 fits my wife and 2 kids perfectly. The Falcon 2000 is another option als0, same cabin as the 50, but two engines. Most likely I will get the type rating for all of them and then decide. Michael | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
New member Username: Donv Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2002 |
Wow,I wish I'd gotten in on this thread earlier. I fly Falcons myself, not my own however, but professionally. The Falcon 50 is a wonderful airplane-- I always have fun discussing the relative merits with my G2 pilot friends... of course, the 50 costs twice as much to buy as a G2 and has a much smaller cabin. If I were an owner-pilot, I'd buy a 50 long before I'd buy a G2 or G3. If I'm riding in the back, well, that changes things a bit. As for the warbirds, the T-38 is hard to beat in almost every way except for acquisition costs. I've never flown one, but I know the engines are basically the same as a 20-series Learjet, which means the operating costs are going to be pretty reasonable (in relative terms, anyway). But, that's why they are so expensive to buy, in relative terms. As the old saying goes, you get what you pay for. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 262 Registered: 8-2001 |
If they can pull this off, it might change things. http://www.safireaircraft.com | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 570 Registered: 4-2001 |
Smart move, that's why I had the Panther navajo for 5 years. It fit my flying at the time. We then started going farther and farther on every trip and made more and more trips. Then the wife and kids started saying we want to get there faster as the piston twin is slower and time adds up when doing lots of flights. Hence the jet. I do the same flights now in less than half the same time (plus almost zero weather delay because of the altitude and speed capability). The jet math is a little off, even a simple Citation 1 would cost closer to 200,000K/annum diference just to operate as the B58. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 521 Registered: 6-2001 |
Indy, last week in September. The Baron is a great piston twin. I had an A36 for about 3 years in the early 80s, got a B55, didn't like it, then got a Model B58 in the middle 80s and have had it ever since. It's a great airplane, and for my purpose (just use it around California) it works just fine. There are times when I'd like a jet, but the cost differential is huge, even an older citation 500 would run an extra 100k per year to operate, and I don't know if there would be a noticeable difference in the useage. Art | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 568 Registered: 4-2001 |
Art, Where is the F1 race this year? Wasn't planning on it, but might. Baron, nice airplane. Would you believe I have never flown one. I have flown the sister (bonanza) and it was by far the snmoothest single I have ever touched. I heard Barons handle the same way. Michael | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 520 Registered: 6-2001 |
Michael: Are you going to the F1 race in the US? If so let me know, I'm going with a few of my drunken lunatic friends (we go every year, fly the Baron out and back, since those guys are pilots, I try to make them stay well behaved, and fly the plane home). Art | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 566 Registered: 4-2001 |
I believe you. I fly with ex-airforce and navy guys and they are just like that. Great story -- evfen more cool to see it!! | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1569 Registered: 2-2001 |
I thought something was wrong for you guys are too knowledgeable to not know anout a T-39. I would like to share one incident if I may that really happened. On Fridays all the Astronauts would leave for home in their T-38s. One thing you need to know is that the Astronauts hated rules and always looked for a way around them. We had noise abatement proceedures that we had to read to all departing aircraft since there was a housing development south of the field. One Friday Alan Shepard was taxiing for departure and I read him the rules just before his Cleared for take off. I stated " Maintain runway heading until 3000 feet or 3 DME prior to any turns for noise abatement, cleared for takeoff." He called me back saying "Tower, what if I am at 3000 feet before I reach the end of the runway?" I said "That's approved, Cleared for take off". That T-38 went into a full soft light afterburner and rolled probably 2000 feet and then went straight up barrel rolling at the same time. He called in saying " Tower, I'm at 3000 feet", I said" Roger that, contact departure control 340.9 enjoyed the show". This is a true story. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 565 Registered: 4-2001 |
Art, I understand and agree with your reasoning. A twin does not help you in much in what you are doing. Its a mission thing. I don't fly close the airport anymore, so i think about other issues. Once I go to the airport I am going somewhere (500 plus miles away). Enjoy the L39, it should be fun. Michael | ||
| Eric Eiland (Eric308gtsiqv)
Member Username: Eric308gtsiqv Post Number: 329 Registered: 11-2001 |
Edward...that's an amazing and very interesting personal account...thanks for sharing it! I bet it was a blast, not only getting some stick time in the T-39, but also being involved first hand with the Apollo program astronauts! My dream as a youngster was to be an Apollo astronaut until they cancelled the program -- man, what I would have done to have been born 20 years earlier. Used to be a space nut to the max -- can't begin to count the number of home-made rockets that I blew up in my parents back yard . | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 518 Registered: 6-2001 |
Michael: You have to understand the mission: Local aerobatic flights, at altitude, near the field. Sure losing an engine when you only have one certainly reduces your options, but it doesn't mean that any loss is fatal. Bob Lutz owns one and has I think an engine failure, but got it back on the runway, with little or no damage. There is also an ejection seat, but I'm unsure if one of those is legal in the US. I do have a glider endorsement on my license, but I hope to never have to use it in what was once a powered plane. Two engines are a good idea, but a single works just fine if you are careful on the maintenece and the proposed useage. The specific plane were looking at has an almost new turbine and appears to be in fine condition. If I was traveling over mountains, at night, or over water, I would want that "extra engine" and my Baron has two of them. However, the mission with the L39 isn't travel, its entertainment, close to home. One engine will work just fine for that purpose. Art | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 260 Registered: 8-2001 |
On the origional topic, I was not brought up to be jealous, and I have tried to understand jealousicy (sp). I think there will always be jealousicy for several reasons. An old saying, Men compete, women choose (Niki - no offense intended). There is some truth to this. All cultures seem to have a need to look down on some group or person - not exactly sure why. No life is fair - everyone has to overcome something. Or a cross to bear if religious. This can lead to anger. There will always be the successful and the unsuccessful. The haves and the have nots. If seems easier for most people to accept someone else's success if there is a reason (real or otherwise) why they could not have achieved it. When someone I know took over the family businesses, the family attorney took him aside and said that if he was successful, he would get "pop shots" taken at him just because he was successful. This seems a price of a good life. I have seen the results of where people destroyed something beautiful in nature apparently just because it was beautiful. This must take much anger. With all the benifits that came with his birth, it is hard to understand how OBL the Terrorist could have such anger. How to deal with this? Sometimes I handle it well; othertimes, not. Many recommend running oneself's down. It seems that one then normally gains acceptance at the cost of respect. A little light hearted humor showing one is human, but not running oneself down sometimes works. Returning anger with anger does not seem to work in most cases. It seems that the better approach is to develop responses that do not return anger and that does not run oneself down. This is not easy. Dave | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 563 Registered: 4-2001 |
Edward, I think Art is talking about the surplus european fighters made by the chec republic., the L39C. In fact, they still made them as of a couple years ago and you could buy them brand new. He is not talking about an American airplane. I may be mistaken, but I think this is the case. the L39C has one engine and top speed around 400 knots -- way slower than the airplanes you are talkng about. http://www.firecatjet.com/l39specs.htm Michael | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1566 Registered: 2-2001 |
The T-39 has 2 engines and no autopilot. I have flown one. I was an Air Traffic Controller in the Air Force stationed at Patrick AFB Cocoa Beach FL. during the Apollo missions. I controlled all the NASA Astronauts with their T-38s and could write a book on their antics. Jim Rathmann Chevrolet used to supply all the Astronauts with Corvettes to use while at the Cape and they would all be lined up on the Flight Line next to their T-38s almost every Friday before they would leave for home. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 562 Registered: 4-2001 |
So what do you do if the one engine goes? Anyone can fly an airplane when everything is working correctly. One engine just limits the options to much for me. I agree its a great bargain, but bargains are exactly that -- bargains. Just make sure your maintenance isn't a bargain either. Acquistion is easy, its the upkeep that matters. Michael | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 516 Registered: 6-2001 |
Michael: Both the F4 and the T38 are heavy. An advantage of the 39 is that its light agile, and has a decent glide ratio. Since it will never be used at night, over the water, or for transporation, a single engine is just fine. It's also reasonably fast down low. All of those are advantages in my book, and given the price (250k) with 3 guys owning it, its a great bargain. Art | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Junior Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2002 |
Speaking of P-51s, I think one of the reasons that the P-51 Mustangs are worth so much today, is because of their crash rate after the war when they were available cheap on the surplus market. I remember reading an article in an airplane magazine from the sixties that showed photos of numerous P-51 crashes that were due to torque induced rollover. Seems that too many single engine Piper Cub type pilots were buying surplus P-51s and out-flying their limitations. A little too much throttle at a slow airspeed and the thing would twist around its own axis and invert you into the ground with not much chance of recovery due to the slow airspeed. One of my grim souvenirs is a dash gauge from a P-51D Mustang that never recovered from a hard right turn after an engine failure at my hometown airport back in 1969. They tried to make it back to the field and rolled it over on its back. Both pilot and passenger died on impact at the end of the runway. It was about a $9000 plane back in 1969 because there was another one for sale at that price at the same airport. My dad and brother worked at the airport, and the P-51 was available for $9000, which was alot of money back then. Oddly enough, that same plane is probably even further out of reach today because it is probably worth about a million or more today. But I can remember walking up on the wing and looking into the cockpit, imagining that my left hand was on the throttle lever, ramming the lever through the War Emergency Power wire stop, and heading up through the clouds. But only for 5 minutes, after which the engine was at risk of self destruction. I can only remember talk of ONE Ferrari in my hometown during those years, but I saw several P-51 Mustangs at our local airport. I would take one of each/either today. | ||
| Paul G (Diesirae)
New member Username: Diesirae Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2001 |
Speaking of jealous people, and now that this thread has been completely hijacked by aviation enthusiasts, I'm jealous of Dane Sander's 308 and UH-60 Black Hawk! | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 561 Registered: 4-2001 |
Art, No never flown one of those. That's a surplus European military aircraft. Plus I like twin engines. the 39 has only one. I am a chicken when it comes to some things. The T-38 talon is nice. So is the F-4 Phantom. | ||
| Eric Eiland (Eric308gtsiqv)
Member Username: Eric308gtsiqv Post Number: 324 Registered: 11-2001 |
While on the subject of aircraft , I'd love to own a T-38 Talon -- man, I'd love to just take a ride in one! Oh well (sigh)...now where did I put that Jane's F-15 Combat game CD??? Seriously though -- back in April 1981, I had the opportunity to see the first Shuttle launch (STS1). The first attempt was scrubbed (some sort of power failure), and was postponed for a couple of days. My friend's (who invited me along) dad was a P-3 pilot (CMDR). During the couple of days wait, he decided to take us out to the nearby base to look around. We drove right out near the runway by the hangers, and lo-and-behold there were at least 5 or so T-38's with NASA insignia all over them. The ground crew was busy shutting them down, plugging up the intakes, etc. They let us climb up the ladders and look inside. One of the crew said that if we'd been there just 10 minutes earlier, we would have had the chance to meet the shuttle crew as they had just landed from practice runs! I'll never forget that day, nor those T-38's!! Oops, sorry to get so off topic here, but had to share the experience. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 515 Registered: 6-2001 |
Michael: Myself and two other guys at my airport are getting an L39C to see how quick we can make our friends puke (just kidding). Have you ever driven one of those? Art | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 560 Registered: 4-2001 |
Arthur, You are again correct. I forgot about those two (add Arnold Palmer to the list also), but still that's 3 or 4 people out of about 100 airplanes. The fact that 90% of the Citation 10's are bought and flown by ExecJet (a part 91, aircraft share company with their own pilots tells you that very, very few are flown by owners.) Yes again, 99.995% of the owner flown jet market has no choice but to be Citation pilots. Until the last 3 years Citations were the only jets allowed to be single pilot (we are not including surplus military aircraft in this pool) There are many single pilot citation pilots, but they are smaller, much lighter, slower ships. Leave it to William to choose the fastest, most horsepower laden machine from WW2. that P51 is still king of the hill in most pilot's eyes. Michael | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 328 Registered: 2-2002 |
Add Nigel Mansell to the Citation pilots. He just had a scare while piloting his plane in England. Apparently the electronics which control airspeed failed in bad weather. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1207 Registered: 6-2001 |
I wonder what people in Ferraris think when i pull up. They probably think im some punk kid who is jealous when its really he exact opposite and i really admire the cars. Let this be a lesson to you- they arent all jealous, some just admirers. So If a black A4 ever pulls up next to you and the driver starts giving the thumbs up and sticks his ear out the window, drop it down a few gears and give me a treat Wow, i never knew so many people had/flew planes. I'm with William on this one, give me a P38 or P51 or something nice. Ther was an article in road and track about Jack Rousch and his mustangs (the stage 3 car and his plane) and when suddenly going to full throttle the torque of the engine can roll the plane upside down! Thats sort of analagous to wheelspin at 80 in an F40. Both are machines to be piloted by men, not boys. Maybe when i'm old and driving in a luxury car rather than a sports car i'll want something like a lear. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1196 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yes those jealous people r annoying, I find it best to just ignore them & get on with things. As for aircraft I'd like a nice WW2 Spitfire or a P51 | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 513 Registered: 6-2001 |
Michael: The guy who just went around the world in a ballon, Fasset (sphonetically spelled) has a 10, and he flys it himself (with a professoinal co-pilot), he traded his Falcon 10 in on it. I think that Ray Dolby (Dolby sound) flies his own 10 also. You are right about the 500, and 550 series being slow, i.e., under 400 knots. But given the average mission, i.e., usually under 500 miles, the speed difference is not measurable in minutes, just seconds. I think that the owner flown jet market is probably 99% Citation, with rare exceptions such as Travolta and Harrison Ford as the two most notable exceptions that I am aware of. Art | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1008 Registered: 9-2001 |
I love to fly but have not had the chance to get into small jets or props. Sounds great though. Great discussion - even if it is not about F-cars | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 559 Registered: 4-2001 |
Ross, Your fears are unfounded. Professionally flown private jets, part of a jet charter company with approved maintenance procedures and training procedures AND professionally trained pilots have an accident rate very, very close to commercial airliners. You are passing up a great opportunity. Erin, Great airplane. I have an ultra soft spot for the Navajo. I had a Panther Navajo for 5 years. Just got rid of it in February when I moved to jets. I love that airplane. Never flew a pressurized version (P-Navajo) like yours. I am rated flight instructor in the Navajo, so if you ever need a BFR or ICC or anything and I am around, I can do it for nothing. Robert, Email me, [email protected] . What is the closest major airport next to you? And yes, sorry about hijacking the thread. I'll shut up about airplanes now. Michael | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
New member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2002 |
From jealousy to jets. Looks like this thread's been hijacked. Ironic. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member Username: Ross Post Number: 181 Registered: 3-2002 |
i am no where near you guys' league, but definetely aspiring to such..... but have always shied away from flying in small planes and jets since i heard that the highest percentage of aircraft fatalities occurr in private/smaller planes (piston or jet). subsequently i have turned down many rides in the corp jet, private planes within europe to/from gp's etc. my friends think i am crazy but..... btw, i have no fear of flying in commercial planes and have been doing so all my life, just smallish planes. are my fears unfounded? | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 58 Registered: 2-2002 |
Michael, thanks for the Jet education. I don't know why I read Falcon and thought Lear. Anyhow, if you are in the SF bay area and want to share a 360 drive, drop me a mail. ACW | ||
| Erin Patrick Pierce (Fulmina)
New member Username: Fulmina Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2002 |
Wow. I am an entry level player of this sport. I drive a QV and fly a P-Navaho, but hope that my success continues so I can join you in the major league one day, Michael. Isn't it strange that so many of us are pilots and scuba divers? Well... maybe not. I suppose Ferrari draws from the same crowd. | ||
| Robert Jude Klein (Rjklein4470)
Junior Member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 125 Registered: 3-2002 |
Michael, Sweet offer, and I would love every minute. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 558 Registered: 4-2001 |
Arthur, The Citation 10 is very rarely owner flown also, if at all. It also only represents less than .5% of the citation fleet. Like the Falcon, it is a 2 pilot airplane and most owners do ride in the back. You are correct the Citation 10 is the fastest (Mach .92, 525 knots) and the Falcon I fly (Mach .85, 485 knots) is the second fastest. The Citation 10 is nice plane, but I'll take a G3 ,4 or 5 and look down at the Citation 10 as I taxi by.. Most citations are not called "slowstations" for nothing as most of them cruise under 400 knots. You are sort of making my point for me -- it shouldn't be a big deal at the airport, but sometimes it is. I know a lot of private pilots with sports cars, but they are usually flying piston aircraft, which while fun, are a totally different league. In fact, I bet most of their sports cars are faster than their planes. Comparing a piston aircraft to a jet is like comparing a 308 to an F50. Michael Robert, As a ferrari brother, you have an open invitation to join me in the jet to dinner. I live in Maryland, so if you are ever here let me know. Darn, just noticed you live in Indiana. Hey , I'll come get you and we can go to Chicago or something. A trade for ride in the 360? Michael | ||
| Robert Jude Klein (Rjklein4470)
Junior Member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 124 Registered: 3-2002 |
My Father would love this conversation, because he is a plane nut. I thought it was cool when I got to ride in a star ship round trip. I felt like a rock star, and you guys are talking about my G5, and my airport. Man what a feeling, to pull up to your own airport, in a Ferrari let's say it was a 250 GTO, and get in a G5. All that to just fly to let's New York for dinner. What does that feel like. I would love to some day know what that feels like. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 510 Registered: 6-2001 |
Michael & Nika: Say what you want about Citations (my next plane), but I think that the Citation 10 is the fastest passenger jet flying in the US (yes, I know about the Concorde, but it doesn't fly very fast in the USA, because they won't let it). Falcons are nice planes, but very few are owner flown, the owners usually ride in the back. At my airport, most of the guys flying have some sort of sports car, either a Porsche or Ferrari, so getting out of the fcar into the plane isn't really a big deal. There are guys at the airport who are nationally known, but when you see them at the airport, there are times that you think a bum has snuck into the airport. I know a couple of billionaires, who you'd swear to god that they spent the last night in a dumpster when you see them at the airport. I guess one of the advantages of that level of wealth is that you no longer need to try to impress people. Art | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 631 Registered: 12-2001 |
hahahah - the G5 was the best WOW Now it's a lowly citation I remember going to Montreal for a peeee - well actually I had to deliver paperwork - but might as well ...you know....while there The people I dealt with were alltop rate - how could I not be kind and respectful.....they remembered me 2 years later and working for another company - that meant the world. been Mach 2 - want to do that again | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 557 Registered: 4-2001 |
You are exactly correct horsefly. Dassault is the french company. Not only is the lear slower, its roof line (except for the very late models) is even lower, but once seated the Falcon is very comfortable. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Junior Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2002 |
Michael, I believe most of those Falcon jets are customized here in Little Rock, Arkansas. My brother worked there 20+ years ago, and if I remember correctly, the jets were made in France and flown over here in bare-bones fashion to the customizing center down here. Here they were fancied up to the customers specs. I remember going out there with my brother and walking/crawling into one of the smaller Falcons. The roof was very low, so you had to stoop and half crawl your way into the seats. It reminded me of a very fancy sports car, so I can see the simularity to a Ferrari! Too bad I didn't get a free ride. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 555 Registered: 4-2001 |
Nika, I can easily visualize you in a limo. Nice visuals. So you know first hand how some people can look at you. Most people are very nice and yes they are impressed. It is the few bastards for whom I unleash my wrath. The G3 is next on the list. Plan to go to school for it in a couple months. Michael acw, I know you meant no harm, but please don't insult the Falcon by calling it a Learjet . We go by Lears like they are standing still. Ok, a little exaggeration, but the lear is slower. (Falcon .85 Mach, Lear .78 Mach). Michael | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 630 Registered: 12-2001 |
hahah Michael you must admit that must be a sight! I used to work for a company that had a G2 & G3 - used to fly on them but when arriving I was always the logistical wizard that let the big boss go off to do his business while I arranged all the boxes/luggage (hence I had the bigger limo) People thought I was some fancy movie star....while I was just a legend in MY OWN mind LOL | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 554 Registered: 4-2001 |
acw, I wish that was the case then I could do something about it like be nicer, but I know the difference. A frown and growl on the face is not my idea of being impressed. Its not my imagination as others have pointed out the same to me and asked, why is that guy/people pissed at you and they are suprised to here that I don't even know them. Impressed people do nothing or smile --- a frown and glare face are universal for something else and its not good. I give my hat to kids (16 years and younger) -- they run up and talk without a problem -- and I gladly give rides in the car with parent's permission. Michael | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 57 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hey Michael, I think you are a bit tought with people. They are just impressed. The Ferrari / Learjet transition is usually only visible in movies... I don't think people are really jealous of Ferrari. Instead I think some people misinterpret Ferrari drivers as showing of. Pretty annoying since some of us are simply addicted to the driving experience... ACW | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 553 Registered: 4-2001 |
You guys have not seen anything yet. I cannot describe the looks I get sometimes driving up to the airport in the Ferrari and then jumping in the pilot seat and flying away in the Falcon jet. I just ignore it and mark the face and vow never to hire them or their families. It makes no sense because I would gladly share the experience with them if they just asked politely. I have seen this all my life and it ain't worth the thought, but the key is to remember the face and NEVER hire them or better yet when they don't realize who I am, I then just quietly fire them. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 780 Registered: 8-2001 |
I drive defensively on the freeways and this is what I see all the time: Most people who see my 360 coming would speed up around me and suddenly a bunch of people start "high-performance" driving regardless of traffic situation ahead. I've seen a few ricer kids nearly smack their cars into the back of tractor trailers because either they're too busy checking me out or trying show me how fast their cars are. If I speed up to go around a slower car, some people think that it's a signal to start chasing me. Don't let the stupid drivers get under your skin. Just ignore them and leave plenty of space. If they get aggressive, leave the premises immediately. Do your spirited driving on the twisty backroads and rural highways. You and your Ferrari will be much happier there. | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 225 Registered: 5-2002 |
I find 7 out of 10 people cant stand you or your Ferrari on the road. Oh well. Bottom line is if they could get one they would. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 629 Registered: 12-2001 |
PLEASE don't race them - I had the misfortune of joking at the light with a Honda full of kids. I was driving a friend's Barchetta and we joked "pink slips". All I did was launch at the light for show (busy street)-they didn't even try. I slowed for traffic - show is over. In a MINUTE what blows by me - but the Honda. I heard a screech of brakes, this guys ALMOST tagged a car in front of us that was turning left. If they hit, if someone was hurt - do you think I could live with myself? I was devasted at the thought. No - I smartened up that day... I think I aged too Nika | ||
| Paul G (Diesirae)
New member Username: Diesirae Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2001 |
I think most people are just excited to see a rare and exotic car and want to let us know they see us. Usually the guys revving their engines or saying "lets race" at the stop lights are driving 'tanks' like SUVs and trucks and have a big, sarcastic grin on their face. Regardless of what they're driving or shouting I just give them a grin and say, "No Thanks". I treat it as a compliment, you made their day. | ||
| Russ Moore (Rem9)
Junior Member Username: Rem9 Post Number: 84 Registered: 6-2001 |
Supports the age old question! "Why are there so many more horse's asses then there are horses in this world?" Enjoy the car, ignore the noise from the side lines! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2371 Registered: 5-2001 |
Why cares ...is my attitude. Screw them if they are boneheads. Rev the engine as well as if you challenge him and see how much rubber Junior puts on the street. Just make sure to leave the line slow. Never race these idiots. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2002 |
Human nature unfortunately. Many in the UK seem to be afflicted with the old green eye, almost like a disease of epidemic proportions. People want what someone else has got, some will have it as an aspiration, others will just try making themself feel better by damaging the item they feel they'll never attain. I find it amusing that many people I have met will decry spending money on nice cars and say they are 'not really interested'. Then they come by money for one reason or another and whats often the first thing they do, you got it, buy a nice car! Human nature is wonderful. | ||
| Doug O (Little_o)
New member Username: Little_o Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2002 |
Have had my car for only about one month now. Just love the car, everytime I get behind the wheel my palms get sweaty and the heartbeat goes up. I have in this short time observed a few things about other people. Why does those guys in those beat up 4-wheel drive trucks get so jealous and cocky. Revving their engines and making smart ass comments at lights. If they would just get a little ambition in life they could achieve their dreams whatever it is. |