| Author |
Message |
Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member
Username: Boozy
Post Number: 76
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 7:41 pm: | |
I hope you make it. I will not be able to make the one in April but I should be there May 3rd. After the 22nd I should be signed off for the seat time so I may see you at one of those too. I definitely won't have the Ferrari at these, just the BMW. I don't plan on putting a roll bar on the 348 and I've seen what the track can do to my paint. I tape my lights but the bumper still gets a rock shower every time. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 108
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 4:02 pm: | |
Chris,
Glad to hear it was fun. I have been a regular at FATT for the past four years and also Seat Time (when you get your solo sticker you can attend these, but there are no instructors).
The red 355 coupe was likely Elizabeth Miller's. She and her husband go to every FATT. He drives a bright red 993. Usually they bring along their two friends who have a 993 TT and a Lotus.
I am going to try and make the 22nd event as I have to be at Summit Point that Friday evening and the rest of the weekend for the SCCA Race school.
I am not sure which car I'll bring. Ideally I would like to bring the M5 but it's in NC having some engine work done and a new diff installed. I don't like bringing the 355 since there are usually too many cars in Group 2. FATT also requires the use of street tires and the Challenge suspension ends up destroying my PZero's after two track days.
Either way, I hope to be there.
Regards,
Jon
|
Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member
Username: Boozy
Post Number: 71
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 8:14 am: | |
Jon:
It was great! Have you been to one of those before? I looked for you. Someone was there with a 355 coupe but I didn't get to talk to the owner.
For those who don't know what we're talking about it's a Friday track event (Friday At The Track, FATT.) The track is very technical. I liked it a lot. The skid car exercises were a lot of fun too.
You're right Jon, ideally you will be shifting the gear selector and blipping the throttle at the same time for the absolutely fastest shift. For those who are learning be sure to shift first, then rev. Work up to the faster method later. For those who are blipping and trying to catch it on the way down, it's certainly possible to do it that way and even be smooth but it is far more difficult. Try it the other way for a little while, I think you'll see the advantage. |
Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member
Username: Corsa
Post Number: 109
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 7:47 am: | |
I my Alfa GTV TS I always toe-heel like this:
Brake with left part of my right foot.
Clutch down.
Neutral.
Rev up with a blip on the throttle with the right mid part of the right foot still keeping the pressure on the brake pedal.
Change gear.
Engage clutch when the revs are coming down and passing (or just passed) the matching revs for the speed.
Repeat.
I do a complete gear change in less than a second. The trade off is less brake control, at least for me...
Ciao
Peter |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 107
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 1:53 am: | |
Chris,
How was FATT? Couldn't make it as my differential mount was bad and I couldn't get it installed in time for the event.
I would agree with most of what has been said on this post however, the question of which comes first after the first clutch engagement (shift and rev OR rev and shift) needs further clarification.
You can technically do either, but shift and rev works best. However, that being said if you are doing this you are spending too much time with the entire process. I know that it can seem daunting to do all this stuff when bringing the car down from well over 100 mph, but when you get really good at it (it becomes instinct) the best proceedure is to SHIFT AND BLIP all at once in a fraction of a second.
I have done a lot of Skip Barber Race weekends and the 15 and 16 year old kids coming up from shifter carts can do all this in less a second. Skip Barber has several cars with telemetry and I have seen some charts where the really fast drivers have reaction times that enable them to blip and shift in less than half a second. It's really neat to see the telemetry sheets showing some of them downshifting (sequential gear boxes) from 5th to 2nd in less than 3 seconds. Makes a real nice sound.
FYI: Schumacher was able to match the speed at which the Ferrari F1 system (the first one on the 355's) shifts but he admitted that it would be impossible for him to match the systems consistency.
Regards,
Jon Kofod
|
acw (Acw)
New member
Username: Acw
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 12:59 am: | |
Here is how I do it
Make sure to select the sport mode.
To get a small down shift (1 gear down), press the thing behind the steering wheel on the left. Notice how the engine sounds amazing.
To get a large down shift (2 gears down), press the same thing twice real fast. Big throttle blip is then guaranteed.
No matter what you do, don't change the throttle position while shifting. Otherwise it will confuse the computer and the car won't be smooth.
I really enjoy my F1 transmission. (:
Acw |
Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member
Username: Boozy
Post Number: 67
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:26 pm: | |
As far as what part of your foot you use there is no "proper" method, do what works for you! They call it "heel-toe" but on most modern cars most people "ball-side??" where you use the ball of your foot on the brake and the side of your foot on the gas.
I have seen MANY threads on these subjects and it ALWAYS involves people confusing double clutching and heel-toe downshifting. The best thing you can do is to FORGET DOUBLE CLUTCHING! You've never heard of it. It never came up. Forget it. You will not need it and it will just confuse you.
I have posted the correct procedure for heel-toe downshifting. If you have any further questions please feel free to ask. I know more about it than most people would want to know. You do need to know how to heel-toe downshift if you want to do any serious high performance driving, especially in a Ferrari. Don't forget, it's:
Brake
Clutch
Shift
Rev
Clutch
--<not>--
brake
clutch
REV
SHIFT
clutch
As many people have said before: the best performance upgrade you can do to your Ferrari is to the driver. Go to a good driving school. You will be AMAZED at what this marvelous machine can do.
If it is uncomfortable or impossible to H/T with your pedal setup, that's OK. At Bondurant they use a torch and bend the accelerator to get closer to the brake so you can H/T. Most manufacturers design a car with the brake and gas very far apart and with the gas deeper than the brake so soccer moms don't mash the gas while braking. Don't even think about it in a stock Ford! Ever drive a BMW M3? That's the perfect position for H/T. |
Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 6:54 pm: | |
I essentially HT for the noise - many Ferraris sound even better, wailing on the downshift than they do screaming through the revs. Also I suppose I do it for the feeling....a performance car deserves a performance driver. (hence I'm not a big fan of the F1 gearboxes - I think they take too much control away).
It is annoying however that pedal spacing can stop you doing it properly. I find that organ pedals like the ones on TRs and 355 are the handiest because I'm actually able to reach the throttle and substantially press it. I have always found that maintaining even brake pressure whilst blipping the throttle quite difficult. Either way, I wont stop doing it now I know the correct method. Great Stuff! |
Tim N (Timn88)
Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 471
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 6:20 pm: | |
Dave, i feel more comfortable with my heel on the brake too and i always thought thats how it was supposed to be done, but now im not so sure. Heel toeing seems easy, but i stil cant do it fast (maybe bc i dont own a stick car and only get so much practice on friends' cars). But doing it fast isnt supposed to help, Ross Bentley in a book im reading says that being smooth is more important. |
Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
New member
Username: Hardtop
Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 6:05 pm: | |
Manu,
The method described to you is double clutching as others have pointed out. You don't have to H/T to double clutch and you don't have to double clutch to H/T, use it anytime. I learned double clutching (and no clutching) when driving 18 wheelers which have no syncros. However, proper double clutching is easier on the clutch and synchros. It is good to know how to do anyway. I once had to drive my Ferrari about 40 miles with the clutch cable broke which saved me a big tow charge. In my Ferraris, I double clutch all the time when it is cold and most of the time going from 3rd to 2nd, especially at high RPM. It just makes for smoother shifts. I don't H/T hardly ever except on the track because I rarely brake hard enough on the street to get the pedals level with each other. Like some others, I use my heel on the brake, mainly because my right foot turns out (genetic defect?) and it's very awkward for me to use my heel on the gas. However, it is my understanding it is better to use your heel on the gas. If you double clutch, the shifter needs to be in neutral with the clutch engaged when you blip the gas, otherwise, I don't think it matters. It's all timing to get the smoothest possible shift/clutch engagement. Smoothness saves parts.
Dave |
wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member
Username: Whart
Post Number: 109
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 11:35 am: | |
I note that the jenkinson quote i just posted doesn't really answer the question of sequence of clutch and shift, stating only the "suitable movements" be made. I don't see as much advantage to blipping with the clutch in; i thought the point was to bring the gearshift to neutral,release the clutch, blip,reengage the clutch, then downshift. I do this (sometimes), even though the gears are "synchronized" cause it does make for a smooth downshift, and the engine doesn't seem to be confronted with the same "load" that it sees if you merely downshift (and stab the throttle before releasing the clutch). |
wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member
Username: Whart
Post Number: 108
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 11:12 am: | |
According to D Jenkinson's chapter on H/T in his book "The Racing Driver": In early days, when all gearboxes were of the "crash" type,...only the skill of the driver ensured that the speeds of the different pinions weere synchronized while changing to a lower gear at the same time as applying the brakes, a method known as "heel-and-toe" gearchanging was developed...
In order to change down with [this} method, the ball of the right foot pressed firmly on the brake pedal, and when the time came to select a lower gear and the need to synchronise the gearbox pinions arose it was a simple matter to continue pressing the brake with the ball of the right foot and at the same time hinge the foot about the ankle and, with the heel, press the accelerator and speed up the gearbox internals, suitable movements having been made with the gearlever and clutch pedal, of course.
Cars born from a sporting parenthood invariably adopted this pedal layout, especially through the Vintage years of the 1920's, good examples being Alfa Romeo and Bugatti, while on racing cars it was practically universal. With the advent of synchromesh gearboxes on touring cars the use of the the accelerator in conjunction with the brake, or for that matter at all, when making downward changes, became unnecessary and the accelerator pedal moved over to the right of the brake pedal so that the feet took up a normal splayed-out attitude when resting on accelerator and clutch pedals. Italian racing cars have continued to use the old method of a central ccelerator pedal, for even though the gearboxes today have quick, easy dog-clutch engagement making double-declutching not absolutely necssary, it is considered kinder to the mechanism to use the accelerator during downward changes. |
Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member
Username: Boozy
Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 11:06 am: | |
It is not necessary to shift through each gear, it works fine to skip one or more.
Double-clutching (or technically, double de-clutching) is unnecessary, but actually saves wear on your synchros so if you feel like doing it, go ahead. Some race cars require double clutching and some people say it is a little smoother when you do it even on cars with synchros.
You definitely shift first. (Brake Clutch Shift Rev Clutch: memorize it, it helps.) It is easier to be smoother and it leaves everything in position to rev and release the clutch. You don't have to hunt for a gear while your revs are dropping. Once you get better at it you shift and rev at about the same time, but learn it right first.
If it seems difficult to do physically with your stock Ferrari setup you are not alone. My BMW M3 is set up better for HT. Especially if you use those driving shoes it is kinda hard. I use regular sneakers that are pretty wide so I can reach on my 348. Some people have the accelerator bent to be closer to the brake.
The whole idea is to do your downshift smoothly, in a straight line, and have it done before your turn without upsetting the car. It definitely takes a lot of practice but it makes a world of difference on the track and sounds great! |
Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:20 am: | |
Right. At least we're clear or something: Double clutching is something that's quite different then....
However, I'm still confused. There is a difference of opinion: We've got two different views.
Do you..
1. Move selector before blipping throttle (or at same time).
2. Move selector after blipping throttle.
I always thought that you do the second, on the basis that it makes the lower ratio easier to actually select. I don't understand why you shouldn't.
Also does it make a difference if I'm downshifting from say 5th to 3rd or, do all such heel'n'toe downshifts have to sequential... A blip is actually more 'necessary' if there's a big difference between ratios. On track days, most of the accomplished or professional drivers appear to downshift sequentially through the box (bloody fast, I might add) when braking for a corner...... |
Carl Gustaf Landin (Gustaf)
New member
Username: Gustaf
Post Number: 28
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 9:35 am: | |
I double declutch when I do my H/T because its the original way and I like the challenge. As Manu said it leaves me with a grin and makes me feel as a racer (when I do it right). Although, as Chris said, its probably pretty unnesesary. I must confess that I only do this in my hot hatch and our Porsche 944 and not in Dad's 993 C4S. |
Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member
Username: Boozy
Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 9:07 am: | |
Technically what you are being advised to do is called "Double Clutching" and is unnecessary in a vehicle with a synchro. So don't do it.
What you want to do is regular HT. Technically your procedure is in the wrong order. It goes:
Brake
Clutch
Shift
Rev
Clutch
You move the selector before you blip the throttle. It can be done at the same time, but don't blip then shift. Downshifting while normal driving is a whole other subject. I do it on the street sometimes to stay in practice but it does wear things more than just putting in the clutch and using the brake. The reason you do it at all is to be in gear during the turn so you can use your throttle. If you are braking to a stop it is unnecessary. |
Ken (Allyn)
Junior Member
Username: Allyn
Post Number: 209
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 8:54 am: | |
I h/t in my Europa but my gas is hung from the top while the brake and clutch are mounted from the floor, so I use my heel on the brake and toe on the gas. This is how I do it in a turn like getting off the highway on to a curvey ramp at 80 MPH:
Heel on brake while bipping the gas and downshifting to 3rd; pretty much all 3 at the same time. Then off the brake and clutch at the same time while still on the gas.
Manu: sounds right to me. I would never just shift to neutral and unclutch; I don't understand that. It sounds like double clutching which is for a different application I think. I don't heel and toe a lot as I can be lazy but when I'm 'racing' my brother in law in his NSX I have to! |
Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 8:06 am: | |
The other day I was involved in a huge argument where I was told that my heel'n'toe downshifts were wrong....
This is my take on them:
1. Braking for corner/or just slowing down.
2. Clutch in.
3. Blip throttle with heel of foot (whilst maintaining even brake pressure).
4. Change gear (quickly, while revs are still high as result of blip).
5. Clutch out quickly.....
I was told that first I had to select neutral in a conventional shift, unclutch, and then shift from neutral into gear with a blip....
I'm more than a little unsure of myself. Who is right? Also, how many of you actually heel'n'toe during normal road driving. (and on track)? I'd be interested to know. Apparently downshifting like this increases the wear on the clutch. Personally I have always felt that doing this smoothes out the downshifts (and makes a quite superb noise that leaves me grinning)...
Any input? |