| Author | Message | ||
| Eric Eiland (Eric308gtsiqv)
Junior Member Username: Eric308gtsiqv Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2001 |
That's pretty close...I just purchased a new rubber sleeve (inline between airbox and fresh air intake) from the dealer. If you throw in a couple of clamps too, then you're looking at somewhere between $70 - $100 (depending on where you shop). Would not want to know what Algar's price is though -- unless they deduct a percentage for the devaluation of my 308  . | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 296 Registered: 1-2001 |
So why don't you sell your car on ebay then? 308 QV usually get a fair price as you mentioned yourself. Mark from Algar has no idea about the value of Ferraris. The way he calculates the value of a used car is absolutely stupid. Either that or arrogance, maybe both. The fact that they stole the air duct shows me how unprofessional they are. Maybe you can buy it back for 200 bucks. LOL. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Junior Member Username: Study Post Number: 187 Registered: 10-2001 |
I"m going to keep my eye out for those $30k perfect 308's since that what Algar thinks they are worth. The sales guys are going to hate the service guys after this. LOL I wonder if I now have the right to complain everytime I see one in their shop for $40k? Or did we back Mark into a corner? Car Dealers can wiggle out of anything though. "We sell perfect 308's for $40k because of our overhead, but private parties can sell for 30k. I can see it now... the wiggle logic | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 353 Registered: 2-2001 |
I wonder how many perfect 308s Algar sells for 30k or less each year? I would guess 0. Brian did 4 PPIs for me. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Junior Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 145 Registered: 12-2001 |
Mark, sorry you had such an unpleasant experience. This sort of thing is no fun. Also, if Mark can provide perfect 308's for $30K and under I would be thrilled to purchase every one he can supply. Good luck! | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Junior Member Username: Doody Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2001 |
that sounds incredibly professional and rational, brian. i wish everybody behaved that way. IME, the ferrari dealerships are far too eager to make extensive value judgements - and most buyers don't know whether or by how much to couch those judgements. i think FNA would be well served by suggesting some PPI guidelines to its dealerships: inspect the car; make objective comments including a scale of some sort ("this part is worn, but it's still at 90%"); if the customer asks, share subjective opinion but, unless the car is bound for concours, with reasonable, rational caveats ("i'd replace that part even at 10% wear, but i'm a nut that way"). doody. | ||
| Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Junior Member Username: Eurocardoc Post Number: 208 Registered: 11-2001 |
I do PPI all the time, even for FNA dealerships, I give as thorough a list as possible without any disassembly. This is then prioritised and estimated. The list is paid for by the purchaser, if the seller wishes to pay also, he can have a copy. I work for the person paying, all my dealer contacts understand this and realise that I try to find everything about the car and report it. i have refused to drive a 308 out of my garage because of the timing belt being so bad! The seller and buyer negotiate on price around my estimate, I do not comment on value, merely where the car is on a scale 1 thru 10 condition. $300 plus expenses. | ||
| Andrew Chapman (Xx7xx)
New member Username: Xx7xx Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2001 |
I told myself I was not going to post again on this subject but I wanted to answer a few questions that people had. I personnally like how the car shifted before the new bushing was installed. Previously, the shifter kind of slid into gear. Now it kinda 'pops' into gear. The mechanic at Algar who did the bushing swap told me that there is a front one and a rear one. The rear one wears out twice as fast as the front one. The mechanic was cool and explaned everything to me. I think he felt sorry for me:-) Either way he was a real nice guy. Marks report stated the windshield wiper switch did not work, meaning the windshield wipers did not work. When I went to pick up the car, he clarified that the windshield wiper switch works, its the switch that controls the wiper speed that does not work. The wipers work, just at one speed. The missing hose was never found. This is the hose that goes from the fresh air intake to the air filter box. I have a video that shows this hose in the engine. This video was taken two weeks prior to taking the car to Algar. I cant say with 100% confidance that the hose did not fall of the car in that two weeks. I already stated that I dont Believe Algar stole the hose. Although they did take pics of the damaged gas tank on the passengers side. Perhaps the mechanic removed the hose to take the pics and then tossed it out by accident. I know I have done this once before. I did not dwell on this topic because I cant prove it. I never raised my voice to Mark on the telephone. I was just basically rude in one of our telephone conversations. I never posted any attacks against Mark personally. In fact in my second post I said he was very polite. What i did say is that I dont think its very professional to tell the person looking to purchase my car it is worth $14,000. When i confronted him on the telephone about the comment, he said something on the order of: he deals with them every day and he knows more about their value then I do. When I went to go pick up the car I brought a copy of a Ferrari on e-bay that had just sold. This car did not run and had flood damage and a salave title, yet it still sold for over $13,000. here is the link http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1808731930&r=0&t=0 He looked at it and told me that car vales are subjective. He then explained how he judges a Ferrari's value. What is the money it would take to get every item on the car 100% perfect? He estimated this to be between $20k to $25k for my car. He then said that a Perfect 308 is worth at most $30k. He then subtracted $25K from the $30k and arrived at the value for my car, $5000. He said this is all they would give me if I took it to the salesman for to use as a trade in. He explained that when buyers look at a Ferrari they want everything to be perfect. People judge Ferraris to a higher standard. I could see when he was comming from and even agree with that people judge them to a higher standard. I just think a 1984 ferrari with 40K, that runs, drives, and everything basically works is worth a minimum amount of money. Would anyone out there care to bet that if I put my ferrari on e-bay right now I would get less the $20,000 for it? I doubt any of you would take that bet. My point is that not every ferrari owner is going to try to get the car into concourse condition. Some people(like me) can live with a windshield wiper intermittant switch that does not work because they will never take the car out in the rain anyway. I can also deal with the slow as a snail windows that take forever to raise. I am taking the car to Pep Boys (please dont laugh) to get a second opinion. Its a national chain and the one near me has a very good manager. If he finds any of the same major problems that apeared on the Algar inspection report, such as a bent radiator hose, sticky brake caliper, or worn shocks, I will have that item repaired or replaced. Someone made a good point. I was not the customer when I brought my car to Algar. The gentleman in Flordia who was paying for the inspection was. However, I became the customer when I had to pay for the bushing to make the reverse gear work. I think I liked it better when I wasn't the customer. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Junior Member Username: Doody Post Number: 83 Registered: 11-2001 |
not so sure i agree with your argument about conflict of interest. virtually all independents who do PPIs are mechanics, and many also deal cars. so i think there's plenty of room for conflicts all around. PPIs are just one of those annoying things. they're like a house inspection, right? you want a thorough inspector who points out that over the years the frost has caused the railroad ties in the walkway to rise up half an inch and that's a liability if someone trips and falls. that annoys the seller, and is probably not data the buyer would act upon - but it's good for everybody that it's there. i use this guy the realtors (seriously) call "the deal breaker". he's ridiculously thorough. it's insane. it's STELLAR to know all the stuff he found wrong, but you go into it knowing you'll probably never deal with half of it. the trick with these things is to filter through the silliness and stick with the stuff that really matters. focus on the important things and make sure you gauge the inspectors bias so you can dumb stuff down later. BTW, once the inspector/mechanic knows that you're not going to buy ANYTHING from him (service, parts, a car, etc.) and you make it clear you appreciate the attention to detail but issue A or issue B is really excessive they'll back off and be more helpful (IME). it is probably a legal issue to some degree as someone else mentioned. i have heard good things about algar from my independent (non-philly) mechanic. i have had positive experiences with ferrari of new england, which has been the topic of discussion here before. it's easy to jump to conclusions here where we get only part of the data and oftentimes minimal context. all that said, the algar gentleman's email was in fact over the top, and i'd be stunned if his manager/s haven't boxed his ears on it already. maybe the dude is in the middle of a divorce. maybe he just had a crappy day. maybe his kid is fighting a drug problem. who knows. he may in fact just be a plain old STBA (schmuck to be avoided), but it's tough to make a call on minimal data. NOBODY IS PERFECT. i very much DO appreciate the non-positive information on this board, and i hope it continues. it's useful to be able to walk into someplace, decide if you like them, and then once comfortable, intelligently and maturely bring up issue X or Y to get their side of the story. my two pennies. doody | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1906 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't care about the Algar guy, I think he made a •••• comment saying it wasn't worth $5K but so be it, there are other people that could reevaluate the car. My problems is being condescending, plain and simple. I don't care if you're the president or a vagabond, don't be a prick cause you think you run the world. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
New member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2002 |
I have been reading all these posts and have a few thoughts... I own a business which also deals with the public and although I am very easy to get along with, occasionally I get someone with whom we are oil and water. I have learned that it is best for both me and the customer to recognize this and politely agree we should not do business. I would never use the language Mark used (nothing to be gained there) but I won't tolerate being abused either. Life is too short and I don't need it. I think PPI's are a tricky business. If you are not critical enough, you anger the buyer who may then have a legal case. Likewise, be overly critical and anger the seller who may have a legal case over a busted deal. Personally, I like PPI's done by non dealers thus avoiding potential conflicts of interest. Andrew came on here with a lot of accusations without giving Algar a chance to go over the car with him. That was not cool. I live in the west, so using Algar is not an option anyway. If I did live in Philly, I would remember the story, but keep an open mind. I think both sides could have handled this better and I would reserve judgement until I had firsthand experience. Dave | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 295 Registered: 1-2001 |
Has anybody used Algar before to do a PPI? If yes how was the experience? | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 86 Registered: 2-2001 |
Minimally, based on his note to Andrew, it seems as though Mark is guilty of poor word choice. Keep in mind, his intented communication may not have been so lofty and exclusionary. That said, he is a representative of both the brand and the dealership and so perhaps a little more care in tonality and word selection might make sense down the road. | ||
| Russ Moore (Rem9)
Junior Member Username: Rem9 Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2001 |
I suppose I am swimming against the tide but can only go by my own experiences regarding Algar. I purchased my second Ferrari from them about a year ago, a very low milage 86TR. I found it was everything they said it was over the phone when I arrived to look at it and complete the deal. They pointed out blemishes so minor I would have never raised them as issues. They have given me excellent service in terms of sending parts for work I have done on the car and their parts folks have been helpful if a question has come up. Algar lived up to everything they promised as part of the purchase deal. This I can report first hand. Would I go back there again, yes. | ||
| Michael Fennell (Mfennell70)
New member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2001 |
C'mon guys. If the starter packed it in, is it Algar's responsibility? What if the wipers really DIDN'T work? Or a power window switch failed? Etc, etc. How does the car feel going into reverse now? Better than before? Maybe the bushing was going for some time. I don't want to come off as defending the Algar guy (who certainly needs a lesson in tact) but we only know one side of the story and noone here has even seen the car. You guys are saying you'll never go to Algar because the service manager lost his temper after being accused of lying in public and treated badly on the phone. That seems like an overreaction to me, especially in light of his professional behavior when Andrew picked up the car. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1903 Registered: 2-2001 |
That's what got me too Mark. I absolutely can not stand condescending people. I hate them. He maybe nice, obviously he has been nice to Bill in the past, but nothing ever gives someone the right to be condescending to anyone else. I'm not gonna try and make it against the law or anything, I mean doesn't have the right as in they are an a$$hole if they do. Money is a funny thing and just having it makes people look at you differently, acting like a d_ck will make most want to hang you from a tree. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Junior Member Username: Study Post Number: 186 Registered: 10-2001 |
"you are not worthy of having your Ferrari serviced at Algar." - Mark Translation I find the words interesting. Mark seems to be a "Higher Being" and he decides who is lucky enough to be in his company. What are the rules for deciding who is worthy??? For all you Ferrari service guys that still think you can pick on the weak, becuase the custumer is just one voice. The web is not a good thing, because your actions will not go unnoticed as they did in the past. | ||
| Jason (Jason)
New member Username: Jason Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2001 |
Andrew, in your first post you said there were about 20 things wrong that you never knew about. Other than the paint dispute, reverse bushing and wipers were there any other things that Mark at Algar still couldn't explain after your last conversation? | ||
| Jeffrey Robbins (Teachdna)
New member Username: Teachdna Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2001 |
After carefully reading all these posts I have to say that Algar will never get my business and, if anyone asks for my advice, I'll tell them to stay away. Anyone who would write a customer that they "are not worthy" simply needs to find another line of work. There are no excuses for such a statement and I don't want to deal with a business that conveys that attitude, even when justifiably or unjustifiably provoked. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 670 Registered: 9-2001 |
Andrew, I would suggest you sue them in small claims court for the cost of the repairs. Check into "bailment" law in the State of Pa." In Georgia, if they broke it while your car was there in bailment, they owe for the repairs. | ||
| Andrew Chapman (Xx7xx)
New member Username: Xx7xx Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2001 |
The bushing cost $16, Labor was $190, then there was tax. Its over I am just going to forget about it (once i replace the missing air duct hose). Andy | ||
| Frederick Klorczyk (Fjk)
New member Username: Fjk Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2001 |
I own a successful engineering firm and would NEVER treat my worst, most delinquent, most obnoxious client in such a manner. If an employee of mine did so and word came back they would be terminated without hesitation. Thank you for your posting Mark. Fred | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 126 Registered: 12-2001 |
M. Fennell:I think you are spot on about Algar's role, but i am not sure where i come out on the "it broke" on my watch problem. May be $219 was Ferrari "cost" for the bushing alone.... | ||
| Harlan Mott (Hmott3)
New member Username: Hmott3 Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2001 |
Michael Fennell, I agree with you to some extent, and I think that even Andrew would on some level. However if I take my car to have it looked at and it comes back with things broken that where not when I left it, they should be responsible. Maybe they don't have to take care of it, but if they want my business again they will. It was a small item and they probably didn't do anything odd that would have caused it to break, but who knows. I don't know and I don't care I would just expect them to take care of it. I agree they where working for the buyer and they should have been extremely critical, I may even have thought Algar was a better shop because of Andrew's car inspection. When you are having a Ferrari inspected you want them to be hard on it, you want to know if something little is just not correct. That doesn�t excuse the fact that you can not break something while it is in your care and say "well it would have probably broke if you had it.. That will be $xxxx.xx to fix please", you can't do that! I didn't go off on the way they talked in there email and based on it I�m sure the phone as well, but I could have went off there as well. When the client is screaming you smile, when they are done you explain while apologizing and all is usually well. You never ever yell back at a client when they are upset about something, usually they are upset for good reason. I think breaking a piece of his car alone was great reason to be screaming, and let me break something on your car and see if you don't agree. I�m also glad Andrew let us know how he was treated, I�m sure that upset them I wouldn�t like people to know I treat my customers like this either. They could still fix this I�m sure but they are not here explaining why they broke piece of his car and refused to fix it, and why they would send emails like this to anyone. | ||
| Michael Fennell (Mfennell70)
New member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2001 |
I think everyone is missing a crucial point: Algar was WORKING FOR THE BUYER. The buyer paid for the PPI and deserves a critical, fine-tooth-comb inspection. I have to wonder how much better this might have gone if you had just approached Mark with your concerns to begin with and let him show you the issues he found with the car. In the end I see one accidental mis-statement (wipers), a disagreement about paint quality, and the reverse bushing. The bushing is aggravating, to be sure, but sometimes •••• breaks. I don't think it fair to expect Algar to repair it just because it chose to broke when they had the car. Mark could have handled it better himself but I can certainly understand his frustration after seeing bitching at this site and receiving (by your own admission) rude phone calls. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 344 Registered: 9-2001 |
andrew Not to change subject but what is the reverse bushing that was broken - I am not familiar with this part | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1891 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't care what they say but I have had no exceptional experiences with them (as I have had with WWoC) and this enough for me to say goodbye Algar which I used to get parts from on occasion. If they're so good they don't need my money. Right now I don't have a Ferrari that I would send out for service, I truly enjoy working on my car, but I can safely say the 308 will not be my last Ferrari. | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 526 Registered: 12-2001 |
Algar showed their true colors. I would never use them for anything nor recommend them after following all of this. What poor business skills. I agree, you handled it very well. I would have been very upset. I am glad to hear that you have your car back. How can they make such a comment? | ||
| Eric Eiland (Eric308gtsiqv)
Junior Member Username: Eric308gtsiqv Post Number: 183 Registered: 11-2001 |
Andrew...man, my heart sunk when I read the e-mail that was sent to you -- all I can say is that you handled the whole situation with class! It upsets me when I see any consumer treated like you were. Is Mark the owner of this establishment or just an employee? Either way, it would appear to me that he either answers to a boss or FNA directly for his business dealings (assuming that Algar is an FNA owned dealership). As such, I would think that FNA would be very concerned with how you were treated by him in any regard, especially with respect to the damage done at the dealership! As a business partner, I would never treat a customer in this pompous and unprofessional manner, nor would I tolerate any of my employees who did the same -- not unless I want to lose business (not to mention possibly my state license)! Our firm makes it a policy to offer the best services at a fair price in as timely a manner as possible with the customer's satisfaction as a goal. If one of our personnel damages property while doing his/her job, then we must fix it. If we make a mistake, no matter what the cost, we are liable. If the client needs additional work done that we overlooked within the scope of the initial job, then we must provide it. All this is provided at no additional cost to the client -- because it was our responsibility. Occasionally, we have a client that cannot be pleased no matter what -- that is where the law is at the disposal for both us and the client to settle the matter in a civil fashion if need be. Sure, a customer can be irate at times (and oftentimes justly so); but this does not give us the right to be rude and unprofessional. Furthermore, the customer has every right to express his/her dissastifactions and opinions. However, I've found that, by adhering to a customer satisfaction oriented policy, the client is always happy 99% of the time -- and business keeps booming! I only hope that Ferrari & Co. feels the same way. Sorry to ramble so long, but had to get that off my chest -- now I can get back to work . | ||
| Todd Chen (Tec)
New member Username: Tec Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2002 |
That "not worthy" business is just tactless and silly. I wonder why they feel the need to add insult to injury. Either they have poor business sense or Andrew really pissed 'em off good. | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 294 Registered: 1-2001 |
Unfortunate those guys are all the same (see Ferrari of new England). They are not worthy having us as customers. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2001 |
Mark really told you you are "not worthy"? Yikes.Reminds me of that scene with Alice Cooper in Wayne's World. Sorry that happened to you. | ||
| Andrew Chapman (Xx7xx)
New member Username: Xx7xx Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2001 |
This is a final post to let everyone know what became of this situation. Here is the e-mail I received from Mark. My comments will follow. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Cedrone [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 8:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Ferrari Service Dear Andrew, You are very quick with your words and judgement. I have learned about your very negative comments throughout the internet toward myself and Algar. Not very professional on your part. Unfortunately for you, people who really know Algar and our reputation simply do not agree with your accusations. As a result, you are not worthy of having your Ferrari serviced at Algar. Please respond with your plan for immediate pickup. Respectfully, Mark Cedrone Algar Ferrari/Maserati of Phila. I arranged emergency transportation to Algar from my work. I went to Algar during my lunch hour to pick up the car. I hit construction traffic on the way there, so I knew I was going to be late back. This put me in a real bad mood before I even saw Mark. I was ready to start screaming, but i didn't, I remained calm and civil. He in return was polite. He explained that for things such as the paint job, they judge Ferrari's to a higher standard. I feel the paint job is nice, he does not and pointed out a few areas on the body. I think I was seeing it as a 16 year old car with 40,000 miles. He told me that he agrees that the reverse bushing broke while the vehicle was in his shop. He gave me the damaged bushing. I feel that if something happened to the car while it was in their care, they are responsible for it. If a tree fell on the car while it was at their shop, would they not be responsible for the damage? It is not very professional to break a customers car and charge him to fix it. He explained that his report was not entirely correct in its completeness. He said the windshield wipers do not work. He stated the windshield wipers work, it is the wiper intermittent switch which does not work. There were a few other points he cleared up. Because I saw these things on the car which the inspection report said did not work, which I know did, I was suspicious about the items on the report under the car which I could not see. I did not believe that there was an oil leak because there was never any oil spots in my garage. Mark showed me pics of the underside of the car, and from the pictures it appears that some of the negative things he was saying on the inspection report (such as the oil leak) were correct. And for this I have to suck it up and admit I was wrong. Neither one of us could explain the missing air duct hose in the engine. I know it was there two weeks ago, he says it was not there when the car was delivered. I do not belive Algar would have stolen a part off of my car, they can get parts very easily from their factory. I also don�t think that there is any way this air duct could have fallen off the car while driving it to Algar. My final thoughts: This experience cost me $219 for a new bushing the size of a peanut. This is not going to break me financially, but I did not feel I should have had to pay for it. I have the right to post whatever I like on the internet, just like Algar has the right to refuse me service. It appears from the follow-up posts that Algar has a lot of loyal customers and a lot of people who would never use them again. I am among the later. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1878 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have to say that on occasion I have gotten that feeling a little bit too Christian when dealing with certain dealerships. It seems you have to sift through the guys working there and find the good one. At Algar I always talk to Lee about parts and he has been good. Just recently though he was asking 100% over what TRutlands is asking for a part, a very expensive part so it's not like $200 instead of $100. I went to Wide World of Cars and he was asking the same price as TRutlands for the part. Now because of that I've established a relationship with WWoC (the guy's name is Rob, he's young like 25 maybe, everytime I've been there he's been really helpful, like he'll actually jog into the back to check a part out so as not to keep you waiting if he walked, just really nice). From now on I'll be asking WWoC when I need a special part because I know this guy Rob. | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 293 Registered: 1-2001 |
Check your email | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 521 Registered: 12-2001 |
Where can you get a wur for $200. That is a great deal. | ||
| Chistian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 292 Registered: 1-2001 |
I would think that this kind of behaviour has nothing to do with the person but with the policy of many Ferrari dealers. From my own experience I can tell you that most Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes etc. dealers, sales men, service people, parts people are nice people. How come that I still try to avoid them? Because I know a lot about cars. I don't care if they charge me 800 dollars for a warm up regulator I can get somewhere else for 200 or if they tell me that my car is s... just because it is not theirs. All they want to do is get your money and overcharge you. The more exotic the car, the more they do it. And if they get overboard like they did at Algar then I wouldn't even talk to them one more time. This case is so obvious, they can't be a serious dealer or businessmen, doesn't matter what reputation they had in the past, now they are only gangsters. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 118 Registered: 12-2001 |
I know Mark Cedrone through my numerous dealings with Algar, and in my experience, he is anything but an •••••••. You said you got rude with him and, I would assume that he probably responded in kind. I am not defending Mark, or Algar on the facts here, since i only know what you said, and have no real idea of the condition of the car.Unlike Eric, i cannot discern the condition or value of a car from a picture on a website. I don't doubt you are pissed, and perhaps, justifiably so. While i am sure your car is worth more than 5K, did you ever get to the substance of your differences:eg, why they claimed the car wouldn't go into reverse when you know it does, etc.; who there among the mechanics did the PPI, and whether they would be willing to revisit the "faults" in your presence with a different mechanic on the their staff? I'm trying to be productive here, since in my experience with a variety of different dealers, including various Ferrari dealers, i have found Algar to be pretty low key, and they have always delivered, without alot of prodding, or confrontation. While you may ultimately be right, and were fully entitled to go after Mark, i'm just wondering what we are missing here, since, frankly, it doesn't add up. | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member Username: Boozy Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2001 |
If I could get one for that much I'd park them in my house and use them as seating. It'd make a nice 2 seater couch. A good place to play Gran Turismo3. | ||
| Ken Thomas (Future328driver)
New member Username: Future328driver Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2001 |
I second Eric's comments..... | ||
| Ken Thomas (Future328driver)
New member Username: Future328driver Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2001 |
I think the best advise is to take your car to another reputable mechanic and do another inspection. If there is some commonality in the final reports, then you might have some problems that need to be fixed. Otherwise, it would be a shame for your deal to go south because of a crazy inspection report. | ||
| Eric Eiland (Eric308gtsiqv)
Junior Member Username: Eric308gtsiqv Post Number: 182 Registered: 11-2001 |
Andrew: I started to chime in yesterday, but decided to hold off until reading some more. After sharing your experience with calling the dealer back to discuss the issue, I couldn't help but respond... If the 308 you're referring to is the black 84/85 QV listed on your webpage, then I must say that you have a very, very nice 308 that is in excellent condition as far as 308's go, in my opinion! You have obviously put a considerable amount of time / money / effort into your car during ownership. Having said that, you (and the rest of us 308 owners) know what that car is worth - I don't care what the dealership says! If I were in the market today for a well maintained, good running, solid 308, then I'd buy yours in a heartbeat. For goodness sake, these cars aren't getting any younger and will always have issues with them that need to be addressed from time to time; and if someone wants a new one then they should go buy a new one. Our 308's mean just as much to us as the F50's mean to their owners -- they are all Ferrari's, and we are all passionate about them and the marque. As far as Algar is concerned -- that sort of attitude against Ferrari owners does not help the image of Ferrari dealerships in general. If a comment was made like that to me, they'd never see my business again, that's for sure. | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 518 Registered: 12-2001 |
What is he talking about. That is very rude IMO. Where did he get $5,000 from. Ask him when the last time he got a 308 for $5,000? Where do they come up with this? A few months ago they did the same thing to a gent. They gave him a 15K repair for minor work and then told him his car wasn't worth fixing. Ignore what he told you. He doesn't know what he is talking about. It is upsetting how some of these people get such big egos. It seems like almost everyone that sells etc. Ferrari items are errogant yet they don't own one themselves and the owners of Ferraris(Ferrari Chat members) are all Great people. Why do they get egotistical? Think about all of the views on this Chat and how we all get along. This is Class. They must have no class. Anyway, enough of my rant but I don't like seeing a fellow member trying to get taken advantage of. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1864 Registered: 2-2001 |
He sounds like an a$$hole to me. The rims and exhaust system alone could bring in almost that much. | ||
| Andrew Chapman (Xx7xx)
New member Username: Xx7xx Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2001 |
I spoke with Mark at Algar again today. Unfortunately I let my emotions get the best of me and got very rude. He told me that my car is worth $5000. He was very serious. I told him he does not know what he was talking about and a non-running 308 ferrari on e-bay just sold for over 12k. He said he does this every day and knows what cars are worth. So since my nicely running 1984 Ferrari 308 is only worth $5000, would anyone like to buy it for that much:-) | ||
| Mark (Study)
Junior Member Username: Study Post Number: 182 Registered: 10-2001 |
I would like to hear from Algar. Since they are getting a black eye here. I also go to the NSXprime and its cool that the aftermarket supplyers and bigger dealers read the post and respond with their side of the story. It will be nice when FerrariChat gets big enough to reach the volume of Ferrari customers and get Ferrari dealers to respond when we have a question like the one in this thread. I still think dealers feel that the few informed custumers are bad news.. and dealers set up to take advandage of the un-informed masses. | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 512 Registered: 12-2001 |
$14,000 that is absurd. I have heard negative things about them. I have never dealt with them in person but from what I have heard I would personally stay away. I am not a supporter of the shops that explain it as "Its a Ferrari and ....." It is sad when shops do this. I have never seen a running QV that cheap before. I think that was very uncalled for on his part. I wouldn't pay any attention to it. It is all about the $$$, which it shouldn't be but when people hear Ferrari the first thing that enters their mind is $$$$. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 99 Registered: 3-2001 |
I have had several dealings with Algar. The only one I will mention is when they did an inspection on my last car. They told me that I had the front tires on the rear wheels (on the front of the car) and the rear tires on the front wheels (on the rear of the car)! They went on about this for quite some time. When my car was returned to my friend who keeps it for me, (who also happens to be the manager of a major brand, 10 bay tire and auto shop) he checked this out. Seeing how he has either personally mounted thousands of tires, or serviced tens of thousands of tires in his shop, he should have a good idea of how to do it. It was of course done correctly! I have no idea on why they said what they said, but this is only one story that I have. I would rather not get into other ones. | ||
| John Madison (Drworm33)
New member Username: Drworm33 Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2002 |
I stopped taking my car there when Algar told me I needed All new brakes on yy Mondial and it was not safe to drive. They did not know I just had the brakes done one month earlier. How could they be unsafe to drive in only one month? I think the service dept tells you work is required if a part is not 100% new. | ||
| Andrew Chapman (Xx7xx)
New member Username: Xx7xx Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2001 |
I would agree that things that are subjective such as a paint job can be judged as poor by one person and great by another. However... they flat out said the reverse does not work and it does. I used the reverse gear AT THE ALGAR dealership. They said the windshild wipers do not work, they work just fine. Same thing with the heater controls and power mirrors. These things are not subjective. They are saying they do not work, and I know for a fact they do, unless the dealership broke them. In fact when i go back there, I am taking a video of the car I took about two weeks ago for a potential buyer showing all these things working. They are also saying my air intake hose is missing. It was not missing when the car left my garage to goto Algar! I suppose there is some remote chance that it fell off on the way there, but I think i have a better chance of getting pregnant. I feel they are trying to do one of these things: 1.sell one of their showroom cars to my potential buyer. They are trying to scare my buyer away from my car. 2. If my buyer purchases the car, get him to have the work done at Algar since the car is already there. The buyer would not know that these things are not really wrong since he is in Florida. 3. Try to convience me that my car is not worth anything so they can make me some ridiculously low offer and resell the car on their lot. Since they are the only dealership in the area, they have the monopoly on Ferrari repairs and I dont have very may options for a second opinion. They told my potential buyer that my 1984 308, 40k miles was not worth $14,000. The potential buyer doesn't think Mark was serious, but that is not very professional even if he was joking. I can say that Mark was very polite on the phone, in e-mail and in person. | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
New member Username: Kdross Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2002 |
Algar does this a lot. If a part is at 99%, they will say that it needs to be replaced, however, they will never indicated that the part is still 99% new. What they should say is "part X is slightly worn and you should keep an eye on it". Instead, they will tell the owner that the part needs to be replaced for X amount of money. This scares a lot of people and Algar has lost a lot of business for this very reason (I am one of them until I learned to go elsewhere). Giving a potential 308 owner a list of repairs that totals $30K is crazy. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 348 Registered: 2-2001 |
I would think it would be safe to say that if anyone of us took our 308s to a Ferrari dealer to be inspected we would get a long list of little things that need fixed. I consider my 308 to be in pretty good shape and a very good running car but I know they would find things. I think part of it has to do with the fact that if they inspect it for a customer and something even little is wrong and they don't list it then it could come back on them. JMHO | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 112 Registered: 12-2001 |
Doug makes a good point, but frankly, i think that rating any car against a "concours" standard also requires the accompanying qualifications about value/cost and whether it affects performance or integrity of the machine, and all of that in relationship to the value of the car. Algar went over my boxer, which had been a garage queen before i bought it; it still had some quirks, like a rheostat for dash instrument lights that didn't work. They had a NOS part in stock (believe it or not), but were honest enough to say: the part was badly designed in the first place, and the same thing will happen if you replace the part. Don't bother:-they just cleaned the contacts, and that temporarily worked. So, if the inspection was not accompanied by the advice they should ordinarily give to the car's owner, it may have been misleading. | ||
| Doug Meredith (Doug308)
Junior Member Username: Doug308 Post Number: 124 Registered: 2-2001 |
Your car is probably a good clean driver. Many Ferrari buyers expect a show type car. The PPI is probably what is needed to make the car near perfect. If your buyer is expecting a perfect car, then they need to tell him what makes it not perfect. The paint job is probably good, but not a $10,000 concours job like some others get. If they didn't tell him any of these things and the new owner was expecting more, he would probably be pissed at Algar for not mentioning it. Remember, they don't know who this buyer is and they have to protect their reputation. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1831 Registered: 2-2001 |
I've had good experience with them too. Go back to them like Frank says. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 661 Registered: 9-2001 |
Al Garthwaite(check spelling) founded Algar and has always been an Icon of Ferrari in the U.S.A. second only to Chinneti. It was always a top notch dealership back when he ran things. I bought his ex-daily driver, a 1977 400GT, and he had maintained it like new. I would drive the car back there and meet with the one that inspected the car and have him show you the alleged problems. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2001 |
I have been dealing with them for a while (4 plus years) and have found the service/parts areas to be very good. I don't doubt what you say, but who there was actually responsible for the inspection? Mark Cedrone is the head of service, but for most mechanical things, would rely on the advice of his mechanics. Sometimes, what happens on the road cannot be duplicated by the dealer, but usually, its the reverse situation: i complain that i can't get the hood release to work, and, badaaa, the shop says, "what's you problem? Works a just fine." I would follow up with them. I know there is a temptation to say that they found alot of stuff wrong, just to say fix or replace it, but that has not been my experience with them. Granted, in some respects, an expert might hold you to a higher standard than the average guy, but what you are saying is more than just a subjective judgment(except, perhaps, for the paint, but even then, "very poor" does mean bad, doesn't it?). | ||
| Andrew Chapman (Xx7xx)
New member Username: Xx7xx Post Number: 32 Registered: 8-2001 |
I just took my 308 to Algar Ferrari in Philadelphia for their pre-purchase inspection. The gentleman who is looking to purchase the car is in Flordia and he paid for the inspection. The inspection came back with about 20 things wrong with the car such as bad bushings, radiator pipe bent, oil leaks, most of which I never new about. My real problem is the inspection listed things as broken that i know are not. For instance the report said that the car does not shift into reverse. I have never had a problem shifting the car into reverse and in fact I shifted the car into reverse in their parking lot to park it. It said the windshield wipers dont work,they do. It said that the heater controls are stuck, they are not. The radiator was just repaired less the 200 miles ago so i dont see how it could be broken. I have a video from about two weeks ago showing all of these things working. I sent this to the potential buyer and he can see that they were working fine. They listed a bunch of other problems too that i can not confirm. I am suspious that these problems dont actually exist because of the 'made-up' problems on the list. A final example is they said that the paint is in very poor condition. The car was reciently painted and is always garaged. I am not a auto body expert but the paint looks damn good to me. I have a few reasons why i think they might have done this, but i want to see your reactions. Has anyone else had a problem with Algar? I was very shocked and pissed when i saw this report because I thought the car was in excellent condition. |