| Author | Message | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2002 |
On the "Is a 308GT4 a Ferrari?" topic: Don't forget to look at the serial # plate. Even on the early Series 1 cars, it says "Ferrari" | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 110 Registered: 10-2001 |
David, don't be afriad to buy a Dino 246 even if valves haven't been replaced. It is a very easy engine to work on and can be completely rebuilt for something like $6k. Disassemble yourself, give $1500 to the machine shop, order $3000 in parts and you've still got $1500 to pay someone to assemble the engine for you if you don't trust yourself (I didn't trust myself). It will not take more than 12 hours to assemble a Dino engine so the $1500 should cover it. $6k is very little compared to the overall value of those cars (but represents a huge amount of the value of my 246 powered Fiat). If/when I'm in the market for a 246GT, I will buy the best cosmetic car you find since that stuff costs way more to renew than the mechanicals. As for Ferrari vs. Dino vs. Fiat? Personally to me it is about design. The "dino" engine is a "dino" no doubt, but it was designed by Jano for Ferrari and used very successfully in the 50s and early 60s before being put into the road car Fiats and then 206 and 246GT cars. The rest of the junk around the engine is just metal. So cheapskates like myself may own "Fiats" but they have the soul of a Ferrari. (BTW, the 2.4 "Fiat" Dino bodies were built by Pininfarina and Bertone, sent over to the Maranello factory and the cars were assembled right along side the "Ferrari" Dino 246GT. They are great cars that can be used regularly with no fear - I drive my coupe as a daily driver and will be driving from Central California to Oregon this week. You could spend $30k for the best fiat dino spider in existence and $15k for the best coupe and have lots of fun on the cheap. Just don't put the horses on the grill! | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 135 Registered: 4-2002 |
Actually, I believe Enzo denied ever having made the "pull not push" comment and even tried to make it seem he had forseen the rear engine revolution. This of coarse AFTER it was proven to be the future of F1. Who cares what Enzo said anyhow. He was a great business man, built a fantastic company and was a decent racer, but in my book those things dont make up for being an A1 1st class jerk. Face it, Enzo was not a classic "nice" guy. He was an egotistical, manipulative megolomaniac who would have sold his mother into slavery if the price was an F1 World Championship. Maybe this is a slight exageration, but by many accounts I have read he was not exactly an honest, up front guy where what you saw was what you got. Ever read the stories about how he would use intrigue and innuendo to cause animosity and competition among his drivers? He was also not beyond jacking them around about money. Stories of his manipulation of sactioning bodies to get "exceptions" to the rules are legendary. Whether it was getting the 250 GTO accepted as a "production" car or getting another manufacturers car excluded... he was a master. (Hmmmmmmm did Enzo have a hand in the FIA outlawing the 917???) Do you think his infamous comment to Innes Ireland about a Ferrari being a V12 car was directed at his disdain for the 308 series or was it a jab at Fiat. Perhaps he was just showing a bit of the frustrated old man, somewhat unhappy that Fiat now had control of the production cars bearing his name. That would be calculating, manipulative and petty.... classic Enzo. Face it: the only cars that Enzo ever really cared about were the outright competition cars. He only cared about the current models of these, when obsolete they were trash in his mind. ( Ive seen photos of '53 - '58 F1 cars piled up in a heap awaiting the cutters torch). One of the things I really find cool about Ferrari and the companies history is that they were always a "sell on Friday so we can race on Sunday" as opposed to the classic "Race on Sunday to sell on Monday". The by-product of the Ferrari methodology however is that production cars were just a necessary evil required to help pay for the racing. To judge any Ferrari street car by Enzo's opinion, given the basic philosophy of the company, is perhaps unjust to the actual car in question whatever it may be! All that being said, I actually think the name Dino is pretty cool. My 308 has Ferrari badges on it but my friend Pete now calls me "Dino Boy" and I dont mind one bit. He owns a GT4 so its meant as a compliment... | ||
| David White (Dwhite)
New member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2002 |
Bruno, you are correct the 6 was developed for racing by Enzo's son who later died and the 206/246 was named after him. This is what I have always read. Ask any of us if they wouldn't want a 246 or any other non 12 car and I would venture to say all would like one. Each Ferrari has it's own personality, the 206/246's are wonderful driving cars. I looked for a GT(so fewer produced and IMOO better looking than a GTS) for 2 yrs(in 98-00), unfortunately couldn't find one worth the asking price - now some are asking nutty money. However, if anyone knows of a good one for sale, I am still interested(must have had valves replaced). | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1026 Registered: 9-2001 |
I remember that quote - though I think henry ford said you can have any color you want as long as it is black. Does that mean all non black fords are not really fords  | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 284 Registered: 10-2001 |
I wonder if Lambo hadn't had such a sucess with its mid-engine road car in the 1960's.... Enzo would not have been forced to stop thinking of the horses and carriage days of the 1800's Thank you Lambo for pushing Ferrari into mid-engine road-cars. Calling a Ferrari a Dino is a small picture view of the automotive world. When we look at the larger picture and the landscape of exotic cars and why Ferrari was forced to do what he did. Things become much more clear. V-8 mid engineer Ferraris are not Dinos. They are the evolution of better ideas. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1078 Registered: 9-2001 |
Mike, 308GT4s are Dinos plain and simple. They were badged as Dinos at the factory. It was only U.S. models that were later badged as Ferrari by FNA. Lancia Thelmas could also be ordered with a Ferrrai engine, but they were still Lancias. Fiat Dinos had a Ferrari engine , but they were still fiats. You can put a Ford badge on it if you want and it's still a Dino.In fact, if you show it at a FCA concours you will lose points unless it has all the Dino badges in the right places. FNA has been doing these kind of marketing crap for years. In fact, when the 348 Spider came out, FNA removed the rear "348 Spider" badges from all the cars in its warehouse because they didn't want the name "348" on the car because of the less than stellar reputation it had developed by then. Because of that you will find very few 348 Spiders that have the rear badges on them. And Tom, it was Enzo Ferrari himself, not me, that said "...horses pull a carriage, not push it..." when his engineers first suggested that he go to mid-engined cars. | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Junior Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 185 Registered: 2-2002 |
 "Era uno scherzo. Naturalmente miei automobili degli otto cilindri sono Ferraris!" | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1019 Registered: 9-2001 |
I brought up the F-1 thing with frank a while back and he did not respond. He also says ferrari motors pull not push. I asked him about BBI and TRS no response. All in good fun. Frank's ads in FCA newsletter, say he is a ferrari owner not a dino owner | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Junior Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 238 Registered: 9-2001 |
Finally, sane thought. I had noticed this in another thread a while back but let it slide as I figured it was just an oversite...but it now seems that others have picked up on it and it doesn't make any sense to me. I won't debate the Dino folks that call them "Ferraris" but I will stand up and debate any that call Ferraris "Dinos". The Dino was both a model and at one time, intended as a brand. Thus, it is accurate to call them Dinos. Ferraris are Ferraris...to state otherwise is absurd. As Ken accurately states, the F1 2002 FERRARI has 10 cylinders and yes, it is known as a Ferrari. I must say, it feels kinda nice to be debating Ferrari stuff again in this forum... - JMG | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 86 Registered: 8-2001 |
Mike: I agree with 100%. I own an 88 TR and an 83 Boxer. I have had a 246GT in the past......always thought of it is a true Ferrari. Hank | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
New member Username: Miked Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2001 |
It seems that my lowly 308 GT4 was Enzo�s first dual-purpose car; it could be a �Dino� or it could be a �Ferrari�. Actually it also could be a Pontiac as well considering that a Fiero driver followed me into a parking lot yesterday and asked whose �kit� I had installed on my Fiero! My car is a �77, badged a �Ferrari� on the nose, engine, ID plate, drivers side footwell vent and it has the �horsey� on the horn button, wheel centers and next to the tail light. The �Dino� name appears on the trunk, instruments, the keys and the dash vents. Personally, for road cars, I usually reserve the �Dino� name for the 206/246 series and I consider them 100% Ferrari. Ferrari has a long history of racing successes with 4, 6 (in-line & V), 8, 12 (V & flat) and V-10 engines. In the fifties, 4 cylinder Mondial, Monza and TR cars competed on par with the 12 cylinder cars. They were noted for their durability, simplicity, light weight, lower costs and usable low end power, exactly the same virtues that make today�s V8 cars popular. With the 70�s came the fuel crisis and emission requirements, Ferrari responded to the day�s realities with the V6 and V8 road cars. They were designed with the same spirit as any other Ferrari. IMHO, Mr. Ferrari�s often quoted remark about a �proper� Ferrari being 12 cylinders was just his marketing hype of the day soon to be forgotten when the sales of the 308 series took off. Someday maybe I�ll be able to afford a �proper� 12 cylinder Ferrari. Notice that even �proper� Ferraris have DINOplex ignition! | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 449 Registered: 3-2002 |
I agree with Ken. People tend to point to Ferrari's racing origins to deem what is a "true" Ferrari. Don't forget that, in the 80's, they were building 6 cylinder F1 engines. I don't think anyone would have dared question the worthiness of the cars' Ferrari badging, though their results were iffy. And of course now it's the mandated 10-hole. If the header says Ferrari, it's a Ferrari. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 223 Registered: 11-2001 |
I looked under the engine compartment of the 75 Dino GT4, and the engine valve covers say Ferrari on them, the block says Ferrari on it, and I am surely paying those Ferrari prices on the parts. It looks like a duck, talks like a duck, made by a duck, costs like a duck ... it must be a Ferrari As far the TR is concerned, I would love to have one for 50K. The upkeeping is going to keep me in the poor house for as long as I own that baby. So, I guess I better wait until my wife gets used to the idea of $5000 tune ups. | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 259 Registered: 5-2002 |
Technically the "DINO" engine was the 206. Ferrari only started to develop these engines for racing. When the rules were changed and he needed all his race engines to be in production cars thats when he made the deal with fiat. After the production number was reached for racing, he didnt care what they did with the rest.So to pour gas on All dinos are fiats.Ferrari had his arm twisted to badge the 308 as a Ferrari. But the fact that he did and the car and engine say FERRARI surely makes it a Ferrari. And I am a purist.JMO | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 476 Registered: 10-2001 |
Okay, I'll throw gas on the embers. You guys who debate what a 'real' Ferrari is crack me up. A 246 and a GT4 are both Ferraris and were badged as such (GT4 at least) when Ferrari realized how image consious the Americans were (are). So, if they had realized it sooner, THAT debate wouldn't even exist! As far as needing 12 cylindars goes, excuse me? Ferrari has had lots of different engines and they are all Ferrari. So who said 12 was the only accepable number? It just happened to be the best for what Ferrari wanted to acheive 40 or 50 years ago. Today, the 8's are way better for what they are intended for, as are the 10's for F1, and of course Ferrari still makes magic 12's for those who can afford the thrill. | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 256 Registered: 5-2002 |
The Tr was never accepted by the purist. The 328 are asking that but I find them selling for a lot less. Beware of the Tr also as there are some very poor cars on the market right now that I have refused at 50k. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 190 Registered: 1-2002 |
I think it is fair to say that the transverse 8 cyl. models are successors to the Dino, since they are all basically the same design, frame, suspension and motor wise. However, I only call Dino's Dino's, no later ones. With the 348, the chassis design was completely changed and I don't think of them as Dino successors, even if Frank does. Dave | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 283 Registered: 10-2001 |
I think the 8 cylinder has clearly shown for the past 10 years that 12 cylinders are a historic overly complex design of the past. The 8's weight advantage, and the fact that it has fewer parts to break and take care of, has made it the clear choice of Ferrari. People that like to use "Dino" for all 8 cylinder cars... seem to enjoy trying to buck the trend of what "real" Ferrari production and market demand show. I give much more credit to modern engineers that can do more with less. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 507 Registered: 3-2001 |
Actually, I've never called my car a Dino ever... and I never will. Hey Rob, how about Dinochat.com? :-) | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Junior Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 237 Registered: 9-2001 |
When is a Ferrari not a Dino? When it is, in fact, a Ferrari. using the logic that seems to have crept into the board rec3ently we should consider calling all of our autos "Lenoirs" since he was the inventor of the auto. Or the 8 cylinder folks could call it a Ford since they were first with a production 8 in 32. (Too bad Chevy was more than 20 years later, we could start the Fiat acquisition by GM by calling all of our 8 cylinder Ferrari's Chevys!) Sorry, haven't see enough floormat and wax threads lately...I guess Dinos was the next target. - JMG | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Junior Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 136 Registered: 10-2001 |
oops yeah i forgot that one | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Junior Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 73 Registered: 2-2002 |
Andrew: The Dino 308 GT4 has an 8 cylinder and it's the same engine that is used in the 308 GTB/GTS. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Junior Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2001 |
Why Dino ? Dinos are V6 .. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 189 Registered: 1-2002 |
BobD My 89 328 GTB is my car of choice, not dictated by finances, however, I don't think you can buy a perfect, needs nothing 89 TR for 55K. Nevertheless, the TR has a few things working against it. Maintenance is one for sure. High production numbers also. Mainly, though, I think it is style. Many people, myself included, think all those louvers are just too much. As cars age, performance becomes less important (many cheaper, newer cars greatly outperfomr 328's and TR's). So, looks, and the driving experience become the main factors. Why else would 246 Dinos sell for more than 365BB's? The 328's reputation for reliablilty certainly doesn't hurt either. Dave | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tillman, I think you're on to something here, as the costs of maintaining my 365BB are easily triple that of the past 308 and 328 cars I've owned, and I drive the BB less miles! Then again, there's nothing like driving/hearing a 12 cylinder Ferrari. Although I have always done my own component rebuilding and maintenance, the thought of purchasing another 12 cylinder beast makes me question my sanity.... | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
New member Username: Tillman Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2001 |
My guess is the maintenance and running costs are much higher on the TR, and that tends to push people towards the 328. Just a thought. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 504 Registered: 3-2001 |
OK, perfect '89 328 "DINOs" are selling for $59K and perfect '89 "FERRARI" TRs are selling for $55K. Not to copy Jerry Seinfeld but... "What's the deal with TRs? And what's the deal with those 328 Dinos???" All kidding aside.... what's happened to the TR??? Why have the prices on such a classic 12 cylinder Ferrari dropped through the floor? |