| Author |
Message |
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 273
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 2:25 pm: | |
Art,
Twice ...... and I am still alive.
Dave |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 504
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 10:31 am: | |
I think Martin is being sarcastic.
Ernesto |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 538
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 10:29 am: | |
Martin:
I can tell you have never been audited. I hope for your sake that this remains the case. The IRS is one of the largest pains in the ass known to man. A compliance audit where they examine each and every asset, make you prove how you acquired it, along with the income audit is one of the most stressful experiences you can have. Apparently Dave, like me, has had this lovely experience, and like me is extremely greatful that it is over. Just hope you don't end up in that position.
Art |
Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 2437
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 9:21 am: | |
What is that IRS thing?
What are you talking about?
|
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 272
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 8:11 am: | |
The IRS is a gestapo, but normally gains nothing to tell them that.
Life and IRS are not fair.
If people are interested, can post info on how to set up a document management system. What to do and what to avoid. Very busy for the next few weeks, but after that can do it.
Normally I work on document managment systems that cost over $1,000,000.00 for large banks, insurance companies, governements, oil companies, etc.
However, got start on low end systems. My corporation can supply low cost scanners, software, other hardware, services, etc. with special discounts to ferrarichat members. Scanners for a few documents a day up to about 900,000 documents a day, double sided.
If go this route, still recommend getting an attorney to review final procedures. He/she knows the feelings of local courts, and you might have overlooked something.
I like electronic storage since it is far more efficient (normally can find a document in less than a minute) and can do more. There are multiple copies in different locations and saves storage costs.
With a document management system, normally can find a 20 year old document in less than a minute.
Then view, print it, fax it, or email it.
Dave
|
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 142
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 4:49 pm: | |
IRS = US Gestapo. I hate these people with a passion, they have made my life hell in the past.
Save everything. Keep the most anal records you can. Keep everything FOREVER. Never throw anything away. Record all conversations you have with them!
I remember an IRS employee telling me once when explaining that a $340.00 tax liability was going to cost me $2600.00 with penalties and interest... even though they had never notified me of a balance due or an audit (they did it in absentia) that she was "just doing her job". I told her the Nuremburg defense was a cheap cop-out. She asked me what I meant, so I told her that was the exact same excuse the Nazi concentration camp guards used.... she was not very happy. |
Dan Pichovich (Danp)
New member
Username: Danp
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 11:40 am: | |
(This is not intended as a plug)
While a large document retention firm may be too big for you, I am sure they would be able to provide some sort of "guidelilne template" to a potential customer. Call and ask!
Off the top of my head, I remember hearing something like $1/month per sq. foot of document storage; perhaps its more cost effective than you think? I'm sure retrieval and re-filing have additional fees.
Iron Mountain/Arcus (same people) and RecordMasters are two firm names that spring to mind.
-dp |
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 534
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:53 am: | |
dave
thank you for your intelligent comments..you are a great person to have on this f-chat
thank you,
bruce |
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 270
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:50 am: | |
Electronic storage makes diaster recovery so much easier. Also makes it almost impossible to lose something. |
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 269
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:48 am: | |
IRS is not fair.
IRS does not always follow its own regualations/guidelines. An IRS Officer once told me her job was to collect every nickle she could for the Government. Regulations, reasonableness, fairness, and the recommendations of a senior IRS Official did not matter. I got her rulings overruled, but it took about two years and much pain/time.
Before one started using a system where documents are scanned in and then destroyed, I would get the blessings of an attorney who has knowledge in this area. Some documents like Corporate Charters, mortgages, etc. should always be saved. But things like a receipt for gas for the company car can normally be scanned and the origional destroyed if done correctly. Again get the advice of an attorney. Experiences with the IRS are the main reasons I got interested in document/knowledge management systems. However, each government agency has its own guidelines, ie the Department of Energy might have different guidelines from the Department of Commerce.
Information on this is hard to find. I think there are a few books now. However, there are firms of attorneys who just do research and advise other law firms. This information is not normally available to the public and is extremely expensive. One such firm publishes an annual report on this field. It lists the guidelines for all US Government Agencies, the guidelines for all 50 states, and all the court cases to date. There used to be one library in the country that had a subscription to it - the main library in Denver. One used to be able to get it through interlibrary loan. Do not know the current status. I would use info like this for first guidelines, then get the approval of an attorney. If ever challanged, then have two reasons why you did what you did. Right or wrong, people put much faith into the fact that an attorney gave it his/her blessings. If done correctly, should be able to withstand any challange.
Dave |
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 533
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:00 am: | |
about 10 yrs ago the irs was auditing our records and found we never paid sales tax for some computer stuff...its was about $130.00 tax and with the irs system of factoring that # in their formula, it cost us about $3000.00, was ridiculus, but was glad to pay that money and get rid of them.. |
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 268
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 8:47 am: | |
Generally it is 7 years. However, a few should be kept a little longer. Almost every community has an organization that advises small businesses. They can give you more details for free.
Another option, is to contract with a firm to scan in all your documents to CD. It will cost a little, but there are some advantages.
If your garage burns down, IRS can rule that it was your responsibility to maintain the records and you must reconstruct them (happened to me). You can have multiple copies of the CDs in different locations.
IRS stores all your returns on large Magneto Optical Disks (similar to CDs) in multiple locations.
I am not an attorney and cannot give legal advice. However, electronic records have stood up in court (treated similar to microfiche). Tests seem to be equipment meets industry standards, data is protected from being altered, process is ocassionally vertified, info on who & when documents were scannned is captured, and records are used in the day to day operatiions of a business. If in doubt, talk to an attorney who has knowledge of this area. Some companies have elimitated paper and everything is scanned in.
Then have a small database of where the documents are. Makes things so much easier.
When IRS was developing its guidelines on acceptance of electronic records, they wanted a committee of business people to advise IRS. I was on this committee headed by IRS Attorney Jerry Davis. I helped draft IRS's policy and internal guidelines for this area.
Dave |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 494
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 8:42 am: | |
I keep everything indefinitely for ever. I have seen several cases where they go back 10 years +. Why risk it? The saddest thing is not to be able to defend yourself in an audit or other case because you threw everything away.
Like Russell said, you dont have to have committed fraud or other crimes to be accused of them. If you can't defend yourself, you will be in trouble.
Ernesto |
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 532
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 8:34 am: | |
doug
be careful if you were a sole prop, and watch your expenses ( t & e) as the irs loves investigating that, believe me, take it from personal experiences |
russell rosenblum (Rosenblumr)
New member
Username: Rosenblumr
Post Number: 38
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 8:22 am: | |
A quick summary:
If you have filed returns they ususally have UP to 7 years (and may be less depending). If you have NOT filed it may be indefinate. If you have committed fraud, the time limit may also be extended indefinately.
This creates something of a catch-22. If they accuse you of fraud and you have no records to defend, well that could be a problem.
If your construction business was a sole prop. the time line may be as little as 3 years (depending on when and how you filed). |
Doug O (Little_o)
New member
Username: Little_o
Post Number: 11
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 11:32 pm: | |
Thanks Bruce,
This should reduce my paperwork storage, I've got records still from the 80's. |
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 527
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 10:11 pm: | |
doug
7 years, unless the i.r.s.finds just cause and can go back indefinetly....
bruce |
Doug O (Little_o)
New member
Username: Little_o
Post Number: 10
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 4:18 pm: | |
In the process of liquidating my construction business. Any fellow FC members have any suggestions on how long to keep various records. I'm trying to get it down to a reasonable size because I'm probably going to have to store it in my already limited space garage. |