| Author |
Message |
Erik R. Jonsson (Gamester)
New member
Username: Gamester
Post Number: 33
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 2:32 am: | |
I am a dealer for upgraded halogens and HID lights, email me for specifics at pricing you will enjoy. 348 Cat bypass pipes now available as well.
Thanks
Erik
A relay system is the way to go for higher watt halogens. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 256
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 1:53 am: | |
Chris, thanks for clarifying the subject- much better for everyone to understand. Unfortunately most HID kits are not made to be DOT approved and like running test pipes on your car you do it to an extent of your needs. Too bad most of the mods we want to do to our vehicles don't meet DOT or EPA, oh well.... |
Chris Tanner (Ctanner)
New member
Username: Ctanner
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 12:37 am: | |
Modman,
You bring up a good point on the HIDs and after re-reading my post, I see I could have expressed myself better. Let me make a second try.
Let me start by saying that you are correct, HID automotive lights put out more total lumens than halogen automotive lights. Roughly, the HID's lumens at 35 Watts are double the halogens at 60W. HID lamps are great, efficient lamps and will end up in all sorts of places in the near future (disclaimer: I work for a company that makes HID lamps, but not for the automotive market, but they're still a great technology).
When I said that HID lamps are the same light reading as halogens, I was thinking in terms of the DOT specification. For car head lamps, there is a max and min value of light allowed at various distances and angles in front of the car. All lamps, HID or halogen, need to meet the spec. If the lamps get too bright, they blind on coming traffic, regardless of what type of light they are. However, there is a lot more to the illumination in front of the car than the measurement points. This is where HIDs excel and what leads people the prefer HIDs. Since the halogen head light designer only has a fix amount of lumens, his primary goal is to meet the DOT spec and the US beam pattern. The HID head light designer, on the other hand, has lots more lumens to work with, so meeting the spec is easy, but he can't exceed it. So once he meets spec, he designs his reflector to spread the extra lumens throughout the beam pattern. From my experience with cars installed with HID headlights, the lumens are used to fill the area directly in front of the car. Halogen lamps are focused farther up field, so they have a tendency to leave this area dark.
So, at the measurement spec points, the illumination level is bound by law and the same. However, the evenness of the HID illumination provides a more wider, and typically, preferable illumination field. HID may not be brighter, but it puts more lumens on the road. I know, it sounds contradictory, but lighting terminology is goofy at times.
Concerning your questions on color temperature measurements, color temperature correlates the color of the lamp to the black body curve. It is a measurement of light color, not illumination output level. A 50 watt and a 500 watt HID lamp can have the same color temperature, even though the 500 watt is 10 times brighter, probably more. Conversely, a 3000K halogen and a 4500K HID lamp can be at the same illumination level even though their colors are different. The impressive thing about the HID lamp is that it is doing the same illumination at 1/3 the power.
You are correct about the UV, HID lamps put out a lot. However, UV output does not factor into the measurement of color temperature and lumens. These measurement units address only visible light, about 380 -750 nanometers.
Finally, you make a good point about cheap HID lamps. A cheap, poorly designed system can be worse than the halogens it replaces. I've seen kits that retrofit the halogen base with the HID lamp and still use the halogen's reflector. If this meets the DOT beam pattern, it is simply by luck! Furthermore, they sometimes eliminate the high beams. These kits are just a waste of money.
Good luck with your HID business. HID is a much better alternative than 80/100 W halogens for those who want more light. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 254
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 3:18 pm: | |
I have Bellof's on my 348 and they are great, in fact all my cars have HID's in them and it would be mandatory for all my cars to have them. They draw LESS current than stock bulbs - only 35 watts and are 300% better in night time viewing. Jason, how much did you pay for your Bellof's? I sell HID kits from many makes. Stay away from cheap HID kits, you get what you pay for. And for Chris, how is it that HID's are not brighter than halogens? HID's burn at a higher temperature and with a meter I used it showed a much higher output including showing UV output. Hey, I have to go by what I see and lumens only tell so much from a meter and a comparison must have been with a cheap set of HID's so I must disagree with you on that part. |
Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Junior Member
Username: Jfraser
Post Number: 124
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 2:30 pm: | |
Frank,
try this website regarding xenons etc....I bought the Bellof system for my 360 (Bellof xenons are beautifully made kits)
http://www.hitechimportlighting.com/bellofhid.htm |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred
Post Number: 520
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 9:47 pm: | |
You REALLY have to dig those headlights if you can say you adore them. |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 391
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 5:42 pm: | |
I have HIDs on my 308 QV and love them. I don't see very well at night and they light up the road. On the 78' 308 I can barely see at night because the stock lights aren't very good IMO. I don't like them in SUVs as they blind you completely. I can take some pics of them if anyone likes. |
David Jones (Dave)
Junior Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 174
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 5:38 pm: | |
Dito on what Barry & Ric said.... |
Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Junior Member
Username: 308gtb
Post Number: 187
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 5:35 pm: | |
Frank,
I agree with Ric. My car had the OEM sealed beams still in. I replaced them with period European Carello H4s with 55/60W bulbs. It was a dramatic improvement. There's plenty of light now, even with the 60W high beam. It is indeed the quality of the lens and reflector that matters.
Barry |
Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member
Username: Ricrain
Post Number: 192
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 4:58 pm: | |
The difference between "Standard" halogens and a well-designed halogen lamp assembly is all in the lens and reflector. Hella and Cibie produce excellent units that are clearly better than stock 348 lights. I suggest you try a set of the Hellas ($100-ish for the pair) before undertaking the significant task (in both effort and cost) of properly upgrading to HID lights. |
BobD (Bobd)
Member
Username: Bobd
Post Number: 520
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 3:36 pm: | |
Super informative, Chris.... thx! |
Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member
Username: Mrpc12
Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 3:20 pm: | |
I bought a kit from Ferrari of Los Gatos for my 550 and then had my stereo installer run new wiring with a seperate fuse off the battery. I wouldn't try to upgrade to Xenon lights without new wiring. They draw more current than stock lights. |
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
New member
Username: Euro308guy
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 8:08 am: | |
Good post, Chris |
Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member
Username: Bahiaau
Post Number: 333
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 5:57 am: | |
Thanks for the info Chris, I didn't know the halogen lamp degraded over time like that. Do HID lamps degrade over time as well? |
Chris Tanner (Ctanner)
New member
Username: Ctanner
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 1:08 am: | |
As an engineer for a high intensity lighting company, I have studied the automotive lighting options currently available on the market. Marketing and misinformation seem to go hand in hand here.
The current rage of blue-white colored lights started with the introduction of HID lights in the high end cars like Mercedes. These lights, refered to as Xenon by the car makers, are arc lamps that have a xenon gas fill. In addition to the Xenon gas, the lamp has metal halides added to the bulb to improve efficiency. As mentioned before, these lamps need an ignition pulse of about 20KV from a ballast to strike an arc for operation.
To capitalize on the "coolness" of the blue-white color light that is a natural color for the metal halide lamp, lamp manufacturers started to produce copies based on the halogen lamp, which is only a small fraction of the cost of HID. A halogen lamp is a filament lamp similar to the ordinary light bulbs through your house. The halogen lamp is naturally a yellow-red-white. Many people install halogens in their houses because the halogen color makes food look better, and girls look prettier. To make a halogen look blue-white, you need to reduce the red and yellow wavelengths to a lower level than the blue and green wavelengths put out by the lamp. This, of course, lowers the lamps output, measured in lumens. So after the filter is put on, the power needs to be increased so the lumen output goes back up to where it was.
Should you put a 80/100 W bulb in a 55/60W socket? No. These lamps run 12 Vdc, so the current is going from 5 amp to 8 amps. I seriously doubt Ferrari has oversized/overdesigned their wire to accomodate this change. Nothing in my 348's electrical system is overdesigned!!
Should you get new lamps? Yes. Lamp output degrades with use. It's gradual, and not noticably in daily use, but it does degrade.
Should the lamps be Blue-white halogens? If you like them, sure! But only at the same power as the ones you replace. But they won't be brighter than ordinary halogens. The Department of Transportation specs the lumen output of headlights. If I remember right, its something like 900 lumens +/- 15%. That 15% tolerance is a big gap, and it is how the blue-white halogen makers achieve what they're doing. Take a lamp that runs bright, filter the red and yellow, finish with a lamp in spec, although probably on the low side of nominal. Down side of bright halogens is shorter life, but they'll operate for years, so who cares.
Are HID lights brighter than halogens? No, they're 900 lumens too. The eye just perceives the blue wavelengths brighter at night, so they look brighter to the eye, but not the a light meter.
I have HID lights on my BMW X5 and halogens on my other cars. I like them. The arc of the HID light is smaller than the filament of the halogen, which give optical designers the ability to put more light where you need it, on the road. Optics with halogen lamps is sloppy in comparison, which is another reason they may appear dimmmer.
A HID replacement kit for the 348 probably costs $1000+ and adds a 20 KV ballast to the car's electrics. You think adding an alarm plays tricks with the car, you haven't seen anything yet. This option would not be my first choice
My recommendation is to buy new halogen light bulbs if you want more light. The most light will be coming from halogens without the filter, but for $15, I would try the Osram Sylvannia blue-white lamps to see if you like them. If not bright enough, go with the regular halogens. If still not bright enough, you can then consider the HID, but since reflector design is so crucial to these lights working well, only by from a reputable company. Anyone, and I mean anyone, can assemble HID lights in a reflector and sell a ballast with it. Not everyone can do it well. Finally, Do not put in higher power bulbs. |
Ben Cannon (Artherd)
New member
Username: Artherd
Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 1:07 am: | |
I've retrofitted true HID lighting to my car (used A4 Audi projectors, so the light isn't all messed up.)
I simply adore xenon lighting. It looks great, so much more is reflected back, and the daylight colour-temp is great (it's WHITE, not blue, the yellow halogen of everyone else makes them look blue, but this too will pass :D)
Beam dispersal is better, and they're no more blinding than conventional halogens. Often less-so, the HID projectors have very tightly controled beam patterns.
They're just 'different' so they get noticed. I like this as a safety factor, anyone going 'woah, look at those weird lights' has SEEN MY CAR... and thus aware it's there.
Best!
Ben. |
SteveF (Stevef)
New member
Username: Stevef
Post Number: 42
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 12:59 am: | |
I think one problem that contributes to xenon's bad rap are people driving around with dirty lenses which scatter the light and cause glare. This is why headlight washers are mandatory with xenons in europe. But in the US they're not.... |
Randy (Schatten)
Member
Username: Schatten
Post Number: 336
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 12:39 am: | |
also...
Explaination of HID Headlamps and how they work found here:
http://www.s2ki.com/article/articleview/114/1/29/ |
Randy (Schatten)
Member
Username: Schatten
Post Number: 335
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 12:38 am: | |
Unfortunately, I have a car equipped with "the most annoying HID's ever put on a car", mainly because they bobble up and down due to the suspension from the factory and the preciseness of the lights in the S2000. They are great for some things, but at night, on twisty roads, they are absolutely horrible. They cast strange shadows in front of you and the lights do NOT dissipate into the field of vision. Instead, it is cut off and that's it. So if a deer is standing six inches away from the cut off point of the light, you can't see the deer at all. Its that binary!
Otherwise, I dig them. I prefer the blue light and driving around town. But sorry for those of you on the road that I'm blinding. Heck, many of my friends have been to court, only to bring the manual with them showing the judge that it came that way from the factory! |
Jack (Gilles27)
Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 472
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 10:32 pm: | |
That's an interesting article. It's hard to argue with opinions like WHart's. In reality though, his seems to be the exception and the primary appeal seems to be the aesthetics. So what's next--aircraft landing lights? Oh well, guess they're here to stay. |
j Buffa (Jbuffa)
New member
Username: Jbuffa
Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:57 pm: | |
This was in the USA Today about Xenon lights.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/covers/2001-06-07-bcovthu.htm |
Jack (Gilles27)
Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 469
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:18 pm: | |
Based on what type of study do they say that "people look at them longer"? If I were to do that, I would either go blind or wreck. All I know is what I see, and they are much more penetrating. |
Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member
Username: Bahiaau
Post Number: 331
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:06 pm: | |
Xenon lights are wonderful. I wouldn't put the bulbs in though as they are not the real thing. As Dennis qouted, they are not any more blinding than other lights, it's just that because they appear different, people tend to look at them more often and for longer periods of time. |
Dennis Walsh (Wheel_kinetics)
New member
Username: Wheel_kinetics
Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 8:01 pm: | |
It's interesting that the exact same objections were rasied when hallogen bulbs were introduced. The DOT has concluded that Xenon bulbs are no more "blinding" than a hallogen-- people simply tend to look at them more. We may see out-leveling lights being a requirement, but I would think that would be the extent.
For the record, there is no such thing as a "Xenon replacement bulb." A Xenon bulb requires a 20kV amplifing ballast and looks nothing like a hallogen. If the "Xenon bulb" looks like a regular bulb, it's simply a colored hallogen.
I for one love the increased safety and visibility of the Xenon lights. Well worth it in my opinion.
Dennis Walsh
[email protected] |
SteveF (Stevef)
New member
Username: Stevef
Post Number: 41
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 7:58 pm: | |
Isn't alot of the backlash towards xenons simply because of instances where they're not setup or maintained correctly ? I love xenons. I just hate them on trucks.... |
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 541
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 7:44 pm: | |
jack
i agree with you, i had a punk young spoiled brat driving his daddys benz, following me right on my arse for 10 miles the other day, damn lights blinded me, one lane road, so i went off the road to finally let him pass( my wife yelling at me im driving like a lunatic) and boy if looks could kill, he would be dead.. |
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart
Post Number: 404
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 7:44 pm: | |
I have always found my night vision to be substantially degraded, even when i was in my early 20's. The xenons are a vast improvement and it irks me that ferrari is only now getting into these as factory equipment. I've always been sceptical of aftermarket upgrades, and indeed, it is my understanding that, without all the additional apparatus, buying the bulbs alone is almost worthless. The xenons on the bmw 74oiSport are virtual retina burners, and almost ensure that anyone who would not normally respond to a "euro" -style flash to permit passing will do so when i keep them on, only so they don't go blind. I am a strong supporter of these lights for both reasons, having nothing to do with "looks." |
Jack (Gilles27)
Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 467
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 7:33 pm: | |
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason to do this other than looks? I personally don't like the new style head lights, and wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see some restrictions placed on them. While they may look cool, they damn near blind you on the road! Wow, I sound like a grumpy old man. |
Dennis Walsh (Wheel_kinetics)
New member
Username: Wheel_kinetics
Post Number: 22
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 7:10 pm: | |
My recommendation is to upgrade to real Xenon lights, with ballasts. There is no replacement for Xenon lights. (There's no such thing as Xenon bulbs without the 20kV amplifier)
When you wire it, use two Bosch 30A relays with fuses and good power wire. This will avoid any taxing of the electrical system. You can also buy pins which will plug into the factory harness to be used with the relays so nothing has to be cut.
Dennis Walsh
[email protected] |
Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 2424
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:36 am: | |
Frank,
I did that on my BMW and my 348 and burned the cables to the lights in the BMW: They aged in one month equivalent of 20 years. Had to replace the whole cable connectors for that side. Major pain in the ass. The BMW tech said, that happens to most people that put the high Watt lights in.
I immidately took them out of BOTH cars. Just think of what the cable is going to cost you for the Ferrari...
|
David Jones (Dave)
Junior Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 156
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 8:32 am: | |
I changed my lights to the H-4 Euro style pattern, and have been very pleased. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1089
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 8:26 am: | |
I have seen advertisements for Xenon replacement bulbs for a 348 in Super White and Super Green. They offer increased wattage from the stock 55w/60w to 80w/100w. Have any one on FC replaced their bulbs with these ? Do you think the increased wattage will tax the expensive to replace electrical system of the 348 ? I would like to have more light but don't want to stress the electrical system. |