| Author | Message | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 485 Registered: 10-2001 |
Terry expalined much better than I can. In most mid engined cars you want to go slow in and fast out of turns, with "slow" being a relative term. Great drivers go in fast but not as fast as an amature might. Throttle steer through and accelerate earlier than the 'fast in slow out' crowd. You'll have a faster turn that way and be faster on exit. My Europa is easy to learn throttle steer with. It is tight going in and too much throttle lift will not induce a snap spin (usually!). You will get the nose to turn in in a predictable way; as soon as it's loose enough you hit the throttle and the car is pointed at your exit point. If you do it right! Wonderful practice for stepping up in HP where a mistake could kill you. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1103 Registered: 9-2001 |
Try a lifting the throttle on a TR in a sharp curve on the street or track for a little thrill. | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 71 Registered: 2-2002 |
Thanks for all the great comments. Looks like my 996TT gentle behavior saved me a few times on the track. Probably because I wasn't way too hot in corners anyway. I did ease the steering and applied more power several times while experiencing some understeer. That worked pretty well for me, maybe because I did lift while turning the wheel without realizing it... Thanks ACW | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member Username: Boozy Post Number: 192 Registered: 11-2001 |
Michael: True. I would rather see him walk before he can run though!  You've got to have a lot of grunt and a lot of balls to hit the throttle hard enough to break the rear loose and control it to fix some bad understeer. | ||
| joe saldana (Ironjoe)
Junior Member Username: Ironjoe Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2001 |
sounds crazy but the easiest way to drive a high powered 911,30 is like a high powered dirt bike,Terry you are so right about throttling.I truly love them cars,takes me back to my free n wild motocross racin days..... | ||
| Michael Fennell (Mfennell70)
Junior Member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2001 |
"At Bondurant they asked us trick questions like if you have a front wheel drive car and are on a snowy surface and you get understeer what do you do?" That's not such a great trick question, IMHO. It's possible to get a FWD car into an understeering situation where a little *more* throttle will help. High rpm, lower gear, off the throttle, hard corning. A little throttle will remove the engine braking from the front wheels and understeering will diminish. 99th percentile situation, granted. "Do not get on the throttle if you are having understeer. You would remove weight from the wheels that need it." My Lotus has enough power in 2nd gear (and even 3rd, depending on the situation) to turn a mild understeering situation into an oversteering one. Sure, the weight transfers off the front wheels initially but that can't compare with the effect of the engine at full boost. This is just a different means to the same end. Once the wheels start spinning, weight transfers to the front for less understeer. EDIT: With the rear engine giving much better traction for acceleration, I can see where this is much less likely to work in an understeering 911. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
New member Username: Artherd Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2002 |
ACW: Easy, you don't go into corners too hot with an early 911 :D) No, seriously, it's saveable if you're not in way too hot. As mentioned earlier, you may put a wheel off, stay focused. What you'll want to do is, take about 30-50hp out of the throttle (this is a TINY lift keep in mind) and back off the steering a bit. if you want, you can rest your foot on the brake pedal too to setup a tripple-threat to combine and bring some weight transfer back onto the front tires so they'll bit a bit, *all with movements so little in themselves so as not to upset the car* It's not easy, and driving an older 911 especially is a balancing act. Entertaining though. Basically, most of it is similar to driving a mid-engine Ferrari at 10/10ths (or 11/10ths if you're coming in TOO hot :P) With the p-car being only a little less forgiving of error/inbalance. Best! Ben. | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member Username: Boozy Post Number: 190 Registered: 11-2001 |
Also, keep in mind that while different cars surely handle differently, the basic vehicle dynamics are always the same. At Bondurant they asked us trick questions like if you have a front wheel drive car and are on a snowy surface and you get understeer what do you do? The answer is the same as if you have a rear wheel drive car or a 4 wheel drive car, mid or front engine, race car or Weinermobile. It helps to just think of the weight transfer. | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member Username: Boozy Post Number: 189 Registered: 11-2001 |
ACW: Do not get on the throttle if you are having understeer. You would remove weight from the wheels that need it. Depending on how bad the understeer is, you need to at least unwind the wheel and lift off the throttle. You may even need to brake without making the front wheels slide more. You may cause the car to get loose but if you do it smoothly it should be controllable and you can use it to turn the car. Then you get back on the throttle once your front end regains control. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 147 Registered: 4-2002 |
In a 911 if you go into the corner too hot and you get understeer or poor turn-in, you can lift the throttle just a tiny bit. The rear will then step out and you catch it by giving it more throttle. You may actually do this many times going through the corner and in effect you are steering the car with the throttle. You may also end up lifting a bit too much at times and when you give it more throttle to correct you will need to put on some opposite lock. Often, I have found a good way to manage this is to simply let go of the wheel at the apex if your getting a bit too much oversteer and are already full on the throttle. The steering will self correct to opposite lock faster than you can turn it, then you grab it and go from there. Its a balance: lifting and applying throttle coupled with applying opposite lock through the steering in order to get the car around the corner. You can trail brake in a 911, but im not convinced its the fastest way around. My lap times at Road Atlanta never showed any improvement when trail braking into turn 1 or turn 6. Better to brake earlier but carry more speed through the corner and exit faster. The issue with lift throttle oversteer really biting you is in lifting too much. Most novices dont lift the throttle just a tiny bit with the intention of rapidly getting back on it when they get oversteer. They get off of it completely. This not only takes traction away from the rear tires but the sudden weight transfer unsettles the car. Snap oversteer is a frequent result, thus the bad 911 reputation. If it really was the car and not the driver, why is the 911 the most successful production based racecar of all time? The cornering techniques above really apply more to the earlier 911's. The later cars with much fatter and stickier tires plus better airodynamics dont exhibit the same handling and are very hard to get the oversteer unless your really rough. My 993 would only oversteer at the absolute ragged edge and when it did go it happened so fast it was almost impossible to catch. This was on racing tires. This is one reason I sold it. It was incredibly fast but actually not as rewarding to drive fast as an earlier car. This is why im building a '69 911S track car with a 2.7 RS engine. Nothing like a 1900lb 911 with 220hp riding on 16x7 wheels with 205 series vintage racing tires! I expect this car to lap in similar times to the 993, but with a completely different driving style. (of coarse it wont have A/C, leather, sunroof, power options, etc etc) | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1273 Registered: 6-2001 |
I sort of want one (early 911) not only because of the fact that they are affordable, but also because of the aura surrounding them that they are dangerous beasts and that they are rewarding to a skilled pilot. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Junior Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 240 Registered: 11-2001 |
If you are in the middle of a turn and you are already carrying too much speed for a 911, you are toast. With the 911, you want to brake early and then get on the throttle before the apex smoothly and progressively. | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 67 Registered: 2-2002 |
So let's assume you are going too hot in a corner with your friend's 911. You will feel that you are going too hot because of some understeer. (the car does not turn as much as you want it to). As you know if you lift the throttle, even a little bit, you will spin like a top since most of the weight is transfered to the front wheels, reducing the rear wheels traction. If you add more throttle, you'll get more understeer. I think the best way to proceed is to reduce steering while adding more throttle, even if this means missing the apex. You may end up with a wheel off track but that's better than a spin. Adding more throttle is not really necessary, but that will prevent you from lifting, which is very hard to resist. By the way, I think this is true for our mid engine ferraris as well. ACW | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
New member Username: Artherd Post Number: 25 Registered: 6-2002 |
Almost anything mid- or rear engine will oversteer if you back all the way off in a corner at more than 9/10ths. I'd probally say any ground-effects type racecar, you can take corners at 100+ that you CANNOT take at 60 due to downforce increaseing faster than static cornering abilitry decreases. Take it too easy, and suddenly you're in the reeds. Best! Ben. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 79 Registered: 4-2002 |
OK, stupid driving question: Suppose you are going just a little too fast into a corner in your 911 (early model, for sake of argument). How do you scrub off speed? Or are you toast? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2002 |
Terry: Your 100% right, the early 911's are not beasts, but you do have to keep tabs and feel the car out, the whole time. The car I drove was 100% stock, and on less than optimum tires, but none the less, once learn to use the throttle, and get comfortable w/ drifting/sliding the car just enough, it's very, very fun. But, the best ride ever in a Porsche was in a 911TT cup car, awesome! http://www.imbecilicracing.com/TuxSeto/Joes%20Stuff/images/DSCN0066.jpg | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 146 Registered: 4-2002 |
Having owned both early and late model 911's that have been prepared for the track, and stock models... I think that most of the bad rap the 911 gets is due to bad drivers. Its true that the cars demand attention and skill on the very edge, but they are not the demons that some magazines and such have made them out to be. All it takes is a couple of lame brained journalist to get it squirrely, slam the brakes and find themselves going backwards before they can even THINK snap oversteer to give it a bad reputation. The skilled driver will quickly learn to balance the car on the throttle. A 911 on the ragged edge is steered with the throttle just as much as the steering wheel... an experience that is totally addictive. Its not horrible hard but the novice has to learn to ignore the urge to lift. I have heard PCA track day newby's instructed to repeat "dont lift" over and over! | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 152 Registered: 1-2002 |
From personal experience I would have to say that the early 911's are pretty difficult. In stock trim they tend to understeer and get very light in the front, and coincidentally correction of the understeer leads to the risk of snap oversteer. However, sorted out 911'a are amazing! | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1266 Registered: 6-2001 |
I was thinking more alonf the lines of F40's, vipers and other really fast cars that can be very rewarding. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Junior Member Username: Dave Post Number: 171 Registered: 4-2001 |
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| Horsefly (Arlie)
Junior Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2002 |
The original Weinermobile was underpowered at Bonneville. So they installed a surplus F-104 Starfighter jet engine into the Weinermobile. Unfortunately, at the end of a high speed test run, the thrust reversers locked on, causing the entire Weinermobile to get roasted. The Smoky-Linkwagon, the Sausage Express, and the Burger Bus were other drawing board prototypes that were canceled after the Weinermobile tragedy. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Junior Member Username: Dave Post Number: 170 Registered: 4-2001 |
I think a car most of us would wrap around a pole, but a skilled driver could handle impressively fast would be the Oscar Meyer Wienermobile... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Junior Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2002 |
Two local guys were running from the cops in a later model Corvette a few years ago. They tried to take a quick side road that angled off the main road about 45 degrees. They lost it and the car wrapped around a street light pole on the drivers side. The ground hog is delivering their mail these days. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 505 Registered: 2-2001 |
My Supra with 743rwhp has to be the most dangerous street cars I have driven. If not driven right it will definitely get wrapped around a tree. The rush of acceleration is simply amazing though! Before I was running zero compound tires on the street, the tires would easily break loose in fourth gear causing the car to get a little sideways at over 100mph! Ernesto | ||
| Domenic T. (Fattony)
New member Username: Fattony Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2002 |
I've driven a lot of different car's, and this thing takes the cake. It makes well over 600 hp. and tourque as well at the wheels, and with a weight of 2800 lbs. makes it a ride you'll never forget.(street bikes are nothing but a spot in your mirror) | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1265 Registered: 6-2001 |
was that your first try posting pics? prety good, it usually takes a few tries (at least it took me a few tries.) What are your impressions of the car? | ||
| Domenic T. (Fattony)
New member Username: Fattony Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2002 |
 Here ya go.Tough to drive,,, But man, what a rush!! | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1264 Registered: 6-2001 |
I was just curious to see your input as to the cars that i would wrap around a pole in 10 minutes, but that one skilled in driving them can be impressively fast. I can think of the early 911 turbos, but then again, im no expert. What are your thoughts? |