| Author |
Message |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1150
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 8:43 am: | |
ken
if you are interested there is a guy in Ny with an 84 red tan - goo driver condition but need service with similar pricing - email me. |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1149
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 8:42 am: | |
have not seen the car, it is an 82 which is the first year of injected. Generally the early years price for less - ie 89 328 versus 86 328 etc etc. anyway looks in decent shape , says nothing about majors or recent service. a major plus sorting things out on this low milage car will prob run you 10k. so a 55k car becomes 65k. |
Ken Ross (Kdross)
Junior Member
Username: Kdross
Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 8:26 am: | |
What does everyone thing of the Boxer BBi for sale at Forza in Ct.? It appears to be priced much lower than other BBi cars. Does anyone know of this particular car?
www.forza.weblobby.com
Ken |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1142
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 6:42 am: | |
Bill
I was looking at the silver 84 that he had. He sent dozens and dozens of pics of all the work being done and while I trusted him doing it the pics could have been of any boxer engine having work done. His website said it was a late 84 boxer while I felt the vin indicated mid 84. In the end with him being on the other side of the country I never got into serious discussions with him on price. When I got my mondial I did not see the car before it arrived at my home - thankfully everything worked out. I would like to see my next car in person before I purchase so I can really scrutinize it in the negoitating process |
David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member
Username: Fastradio2
Post Number: 118
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 5:44 am: | |
Henry,
To answer your questions about my 365BB...
On a 95 degree day, the BB sits in the garage for two reasons. The cooling system, despite having done all the factory upgrades available though the bb512i, is a bit inadequate if I happen to get stuck in traffic...and the AC is a joke. I prefer to drive it when the temp is below 75 degrees.
As to carb tuning...without changing the jets, the only mixture adjustment is for the idle circuit...which does have some effect on the low speed running. Typically I'll adjust the mixture for the cooler temps.
Driving this beast?
The first 10 years, or so of ownership, I used to take her on trips (600-1000km) from Upstate, NY to Boston and parts of New England...Oh what fun!!! As part of my younger days, I put a real nice stereo in her, but found that the motor was better entertainment (and you really couldn't hear the tunes, anyhow)...I would say during those 10 years, I averaged about 1,500 trouble-free kms a year.
As my life/career changed, I drove her less and less, and sad to say put on only 3,000 kms in the last 9 years....
This lack of driving has caused more problems than I care to admit too, though my bank balance is surely a reality check. I am very particular as to how she runs, and a strong believer in PM...so this time, when the engine was out I decided to fix "everything", as well as replace that 10 year old, new, but rusty ugly Ansa exhaust with a shiney new Tubi!
And...pull the heads and replace all the OE exhaust valves and guides...and rebuild the waterpump to new, revised specs to get higher water flow...and to go through the gearbox, as the thrid gear synchro was toasted...Just because I like to do things once (very tough with a Ferrari), I replace all the syncros and bearings while I was in there...and all the water hoses..and on and on...
Long and short, and many thousands of dollars and countless hours later, I hope to be putting the engine back in the car next week.
I've documented with photos the entire process, and will post some of the later.
Regards,
David |
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member
Username: Wsawyer
Post Number: 370
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 3:32 pm: | |
TomD:
What did you think of Sheehan's Boxers? |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 295
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 1:38 pm: | |
I hope they go up in value like a daytona too but just after i get one. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1161
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 12:23 pm: | |
I like the 512BB much better than the 512BBi. It has the sounds of the carbs with the other improvements of the i. IMHO the BB series is way underpriced now and will likely be the next classic Ferrari to go up in price like the Daytona did in the late 80s early 90s. |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1139
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 12:11 pm: | |
there are a few. There was a car on ebay a few weeks ago 83 Red black with two tone paint - I have not seen it but it appears to be in great condition with tubi and recent services - that said the guy is asking 89k, he started the bidding at 80k and did not get one bid. IMHO the car should sell in the mid 70s maybe at low 80s at best. Prob with boxers is people tend to like TRS better and at 80-90k you can get a really nice later model TR which is 10 years newer |
David White (Dwhite)
New member
Username: Dwhite
Post Number: 42
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 8:32 am: | |
Tom - just a quick question. Are they still hard to find in the right condition for fair money 75-85K? When I looked there seemed to be more problem cars than nice examples regardless of money. |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1124
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 7:20 am: | |
oh yeah - price wise here are my views on selling prices-
For the best 84 BBI red tan with service I think the selling price will be in the low 80s ( on a good day) - that said there are a lot of owners looking for 90s some without service - just don't think it will happen and for the most part these cars have not moved - 83s are little less
for an 83 or 84 driver quality I would say the cars with sell anywhere from mid to high 50s (without service and some issues) to high 60s, maybe 70s ( for complete service and great driver condition)
Carbed cars - (later model) I would think would sell at a slight discount to the injected.
David has a great 365 BB which is highly sought after as it have very limited numbers, fast as hell and has a good link to racing. they sell if you can find them at levels similar to an 84 injected |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1123
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 7:13 am: | |
here I am - David I think the info everyone has given is spot on - Here is what I know about the California emmission question and it is based on a few discussions I have had in my search (I am not a california resident) - Any Boxer that is going to be registered in california needs to have the California plate/sticker (in the door jam) - this means the car has been converted to meet california standards and was done by a california shop. You are correct very few carbed boxers have met this standard - there are some ( I think sheenan had one). If the sticker has been tampered with or removed the recertification has to be done again - and that means pulling all the emissions equiptment off and putting new back on - again by and approved shop in CA. This happens even if the car passes the appropriate emmission tests. Same for a non CA car. Even if it has all the proper equipment to pass the test it still must be removed and redone by a CA authorized converter - its as if CA does not recognize the EPA or DOT. Isn't CA a great state. Please feel free to correct me if I have mistated anything. As far as my search goes I am still looking but am enjoying my mondial so much this summer I may keep it too |
David White (Dwhite)
New member
Username: Dwhite
Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 1:52 pm: | |
I also looked at boxers for a very short time. I just wanted to add one thing to all the perspective buyers, which I'm sure you all know already. These cars can be the biggest abortions on the planet, as they were all grey market cars and needed to be federalized. Buyer beveryware!
|
David White (Dwhite)
New member
Username: Dwhite
Post Number: 38
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 1:44 pm: | |
Where is TomD on this. He has been looking for a BB for a while. There was a guy looking to sell his, it has like 17K needs some dash work. Black w/ peach interior. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 62
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 10:55 am: | |
And the "Thank You" continues. Great input. I checked out the Boxer on www.forza.weblobby.com (have to add the "dot"). Nice car. Price is right. More to come.
Jim Selevan |
Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member
Username: Rrm
Post Number: 128
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 11:23 pm: | |
I noticed that Peter Sweeney has a 512bbi added to his inventory this week. His site is www.forzaweblobby.com. I took a couple of pics of a beautiful 512 bbi which was in the parking lot outside the greenwich concours this year. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 111
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 10:26 pm: | |
David,
I was told by the Ferrari mechanic that the carbs are very tricky. They stated that temperature changes affect the settings. If one goes from 95 degrees to 10 degrees, would one not have the mixture affected?....also on a very humid day vs. a very dry day?
Is your Boxer used for "fair" weather driving?.....in which case the mixture may not be affected that much? How many miles a year do you put on the BB?
BTW, it seems that you have just rebuilt the engine, trans, etc. Do you have it running?
Henryk |
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart
Post Number: 418
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 10:23 pm: | |
Had an injected boxer; was probably the most fun to drive of the six ferraris i had; sits low, and requires you to drive italian style; impressive torque, loved the fact that it did not have power steering, but once beyond a parking crawl, steering is just right; air conditioning was no match for the combo of raked windshield and coolant pipes running thru the cabin, but, when you got done with a drive, you knew you had been doing something physical; as to the metric tire thing, though, i am puzzled. I had wheels with 3 ear knockoffs on a late 83:high 48000 serial no. The only tire that fit those wheels was a michelin "x" type tire which had the characteristics of a snow tire. That seemed to be the weakest point of the car, other than the relatively high, rear center of gravity. Thought that those wheels were "metric" and that, to use a more modern tire, it required a complete change of wheels, and possibly, tweaking of suspension. Please correct me if i am hallucinating(again). |
David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member
Username: Fastradio2
Post Number: 113
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 9:54 pm: | |
Jim,
I spent countless hours with the 365BB on an exhaust gas analyzer...In terms of meeting CA emissions, or any state for that matter, I doubt it would pass without the addition of converters or air injection. Despite several conversations with the Technical Director at FNA at to what was the correct specs, these cars in full Euro trim run just a bit "fat". If memory serves me right, the best I was able to acheive at idle was 2.5% CO and 320 ppm HC. I suspect that CA emission levels for that vintage may be a bit "cleaner."
To clarify a point I made earlier...Although the carbs do not require frequent tuning, the idle jets are easily blocked with debris that sneaks past the ill-fitting OE air filters on the carb cars. Hence, just when you think you've got her dialed in, you'll suck in a leaf...and the mixture goes out the window. At least on the injected cars...they're not prone to this annoyance, and hold their tuning settings better.
David |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 61
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 7:30 pm: | |
Everyone's input is greatly appreciated. The other consideration is carb. versus injected with respect to California emissions. I understand that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible (read great sums of money) to achieve California emissions standards in a carbureted car. The range of opinion vis-a-vis air conditioning is interesting.
The price range bottoms at $55-60k for a well driven early model (60,000 mile) car to $90k for a "time capsule" (1984). I guess it depends on whether you wish to drive it or look at it, or both (and your pocket book).
Thanks a great deal for your input. More to come.
Jim Selevan |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 108
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 7:10 pm: | |
Jim,
I have now had my 83 BBi for about a month. At first, I thought that I wanted a carb version, however, the Ferrari mechanics at Continental Auto, and sales person (Lonny) recommended the injected version, due to the "constant" (according to them) tinkering with the carbs......but according to David, this doesn't seem to be a problem.
They had one of each, at the time, for sale.....the 83 looked brand new, and was a better color combination.....all red/tan vs. silver/red, with black bottom. The silver one was very nice.
They know that I drive my Ferraris about 5-10K miles per year.......and yes, I do take them out in Winter......10 degrees, 6 foot snow banks, but the roads are clear. Maybe that is why the injected version was suggested for me.
I am very happy with the car. The A/C works great......drove from Chicago to Green Bay in 95 degree heat, with the air on, and I was cool.
I have it put away for now, since I have to sell my 88TR first.......I promised myself that I will NOT buy the next Ferrari without selling the one I have first.......I was impulsive, but what the heck?
The tires are European, new, and not hard to get according to the dealer. I have Tubi headers and exhaust. The sound is fantastic. I was very surprised by it, also thinking that the carb sound was better........until I heard the Tubis.
Good luck!
|
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 290
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 6:45 pm: | |
I would also like a 512BB, what is the going price range for such a car with records and up to date service compared to one needing servicing? Are they on the rise? Have they bottomed out in price? Im looking at 1 years time for my purchase though. Are the 365gt4bb's more expensive? I would consider either but must be carbed. |
David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member
Username: Fastradio2
Post Number: 112
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 6:40 pm: | |
Jim,
My comments pretty much mirror David Haney's, except I've owned my 365BB for 20 years now...
The car is fully sorted, and all components including the transaxle have be gone through. Parts availability is simmilar for both carb and injected models....and, for the most part, pretty good.
The carb cars, starting with the 365 are the lightest...hence the strongest acceleration and brute power, though the injected car are easier to drive as the powerband is more linear. The injection system is the most basic K-jetronic...and very similar to what's used on the TR. Carb tuning and synrochnising is not a frequent issue, once they are set properly. The injected cars do start easier and run better, if you will, when cold and at low speeds. Also, from a performance point of view, the latest BBi is almost 600 lbs heavier than the 365 or early 512 carb cars...
Tires: Not metric...15"
Driving: I'd describe the steering as light, but a bit numb at low speeds...Kind of reminds me of the steering feel on my 97 BMW M3. The clutch effort (non-hydraulic on the 365)is heavy. Once moving, the car is really quiet sweet. Shifter feel is superb...Visiblity rearward, who cares?
AC: Adequate?? I think that might be a bit optimistic...and will be my winter project to design a more efective system. The main coolant lines run up the center of the car...and the large windshield doesn't help matters any.
General thoughts: Incredibly wild ride and stunning looks. The sounds...well, words just can't describe...
Cost of ownership: High if you do your own service. And if you don't, well...Very high.
In the 20 years with the BB, I've owned 4 other Ferraris, 2 Porsches and a Ducati...The BB was the only one worth keeping, as the smiles just never seem to go away.
Regards,
David |
david a haney (David512bb)
New member
Username: David512bb
Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 5:04 pm: | |
Jim, I have owned my BB for 2 years and have dismantled and reassembled the car. In my opinion, the carb. Boxer is the best buy on the market, if you are looking for a 12 cylinder Ferrari with carbs. The AC is marginal at best, the handling is sluggish at low speeds, but these cars were designed to go fast, and they respond well with speed. They are simply beautiful to look at, and I spend hours in my garage doing just that! They are also pretty easy to work on if you have a lift. The BB doesn't have metric tires, but those are readily available through Coker Tire Co. I have never driven a BBi, but the complex fuel system would steer me toward a BB. |
Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 1:47 pm: | |
As for the metric tires, odds are you will have trouble finding replacements. |
Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member
Username: Tenney
Post Number: 191
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 1:41 pm: | |
1. Injected should be a bit easier maintenance-wise. Carb cars are supposedly quicker.
2. Later cars are more sorted.
3. Not sure re: metric tires.
4. My driving experience was with an injected car.
Feels lighter than other current/semi-recent Ferrari 12's, IMO. Great steering. Plenty of torque, also. A lot of fun.
5. A/C rumored to be better on later cars. Although the sloped windshield conspires with coolant running through the sidesills next to driver/passenger to make cooling the interior an uphill battle.
6.Undervalued. Best buy (w/550) in an F-Car 12 currently, IMO. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 60
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 1:24 pm: | |
I am considering the purchase of a Boxer. Questions are:
1 - injected or carbureted?
2 - Are later years better cars?
3 - Metric tires a problem?
4 - How do they drive - heavy?
5 - Is the original design of the air conditioning adequate to cool the car? I have heard that even when working according to specification, the AC is marginal at best.
6 - General thoughts on this car.
Thanks for your input.
Jim Selevan |