| Author |
Message |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 2963
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 11:58 pm: | |
Personally I don't think the F1 needs defending. The car speaks for itself as the greatest name in sports car racing in the world. "FERRARI" |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred
Post Number: 534
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 11:42 pm: | |
I have to respectfully disagree about how exciting F1 racing is. I think that while it may not be action packed from start to finish there are moments during the race that they put those multi-million dollar cars so close together and sometimes bump that you can't question their desire to win. A few weeks ago the battle between JPM and Riekinen(sp) was great and MS and Riekinen (again sp)the week before was a good one. As far as the cars today, take all of the drivers from this era and put them in cars from other eras and I still think Shumi comes out on top. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1719
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 9:00 pm: | |
The wings and rear spoilers are killing motorsports. F-1, Nascar, Cart and IRL should remove them and put the car back into the drivers hands. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 183
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 8:42 pm: | |
Good points Bill. I think about Ickx at the Spa 1000km in 1970, where he won with an AVERAGE speed of 160mph in a Porsche 917 and it blows me away. You just dont get anything like that any more. Fangio at the Nurburgring in '57 where he broke the lap record on 6 consecutive laps to win, the final lap being 17 seconds under his own qualifying pole time. Simply amazing. These days a hot race is Schumacher getting a better pit stop to win or team orders dictating a boring finish. Oh well. |
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member
Username: Wsawyer
Post Number: 384
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 8:36 pm: | |
I've been attending races since 1971 and IMHO the reason that racing is not as interesting as it was then is that the cars are faster than the tracks that they run on. F1 at Watkins Glen and Mosport in the 70's was truly spectacular! The cars were twitchy and on the edge of control. Today it takes a practiced eye to understand that Schumacher is really working in the cockpit. Novices just don't get it. It looks too easy.
Back in the Sixties when new barriers were being broken on a regular basis it grabbed people's attention. When Parnelli Jones broke 150 mph (in the Sixties) at Indy we stood up and took notice. Today, technology makes new records almost impossible. If you took the pop off valves off of CART cars they might be capable of a 275 mph lap, but the cars, the tracks and most importantly the drivers won't be able to deal with the speeds and g forces.
Today's race cars are harnessed whereas yesterday's race cars were unleashed. There is a big difference between the two.
|
Horsefly (Arlie)
Junior Member
Username: Arlie
Post Number: 126
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 8:16 pm: | |
Terry, weren't the NHRA top fuel dragsters faced with the "techno" problem a few years ago also? The top fuel dragsters had evolved with so many electronic assist devices that the driver was basically a trained monkey going along for the ride. Seems like I remember reading that the NHRA was starting to outlaw alot of the computerized assistance and return the driving to the driver again. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 182
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 8:09 pm: | |
I have been an F1 fan since the late '70s. I agree that the direction F1 has taken over the past 10 years have been terrible. I look at Schumachers record and while respecting his accomplishments I dont put them in the same league with some earlier drivers. Not saying he does not posess the skill, its just that F1 cars these days do not demand the skill. Heck, a 20 year old kid with limited experience can jump in and be competitive within weeks.
Carbon brakes, crazy airodynamics, limited mechanical grip, no shifting, electronic tracksion control (sp), and all of the other "drivers aids" simply take too much skill out of the equation. It also ruins the racing. I find CART to be far more exciting racing and F1 to just mostly be a technical display. Just consider the difference between driving todays computer controlled cars and the cars from the Turbo era... 1000bhp with no traction control and manual shifting with steel brakes.... THAT took skill!
I wish they would outlaw carbon brakes, tracksion control, auto shifting, and any electronics associated with the steering, brakes or throttle. Then limit the cars to a single element front and rear wing with no rear diffusers, put fat sticky tires with no tread on them and let the drivers decide who wins. |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred
Post Number: 533
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 7:05 pm: | |
The CART cars at the michigan speedway were qualifying around 240mph which means they are doing faster then that in the straits. That is flying! I know an F1 car would smoke a CART car on a road course but I am sure it would be the other way around on a super speedway. They are just two different animals. |
Jack (Gilles27)
Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 523
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 3:05 pm: | |
Mitch, a couple of the big differences with CART are their Hanford devices, which create more drag on speedways, and steel brake rotors, which obviously increase braking distances over F1s carbon versions. CART stuck with steel for cost-reduction purposes. Also, their cars are wider and heavier, which increases overall drag and braking. |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 93
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 2:23 pm: | |
Why is it that an indy car (CART) takes two laps to get up to top speed at an oval like Michigan, and that top speed is only a couple of miles and hour faster than the top speed of an F1 car, that only gets to run 1/3rd a lap on the oval section (indy)?
Clearly, the performance envelop is higher on F1 than on CART/IRL cars.
Why is it that the F1 cars go from 220 MPH down to 50 MPH in 300 Ft, while no similar braking systems are capable/available for CART/IRL?
Clearly, the brakes/suspension/aerodynamics/grip of an F1 car are superior to CART/IRL.
Now if there were some passing.............. |
chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member
Username: Entelechy
Post Number: 110
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 12:34 pm: | |
Phew! |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 12:21 pm: | |
they still shift |
chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member
Username: Entelechy
Post Number: 107
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 11:57 am: | |
Dave,
Such a good point you bring up! The more I study and learn about F-1 (I've been picking up F-1 Racing for about a year now), that's what I've been surprised to learn - just how damn automated everything is. Haven't been able to verify, but a driver at Bondurant told me that they don't even shift anymore - that the track is pre-programmed!? I thought at least they still paddle shifted. Plenty of longtime fans have been bemoaning that F-1 has just turned into a pit battle these days. It's still exciting to me, as I still love the speed and control, but then I don't know what it was like in previous decades.
In fact, I've started watching GT Racing whenever I happen to catch it for more passing and excitement. Still, I'm a neophyte and have a lot to learn.
Chuck -
I hope the popularity of F-1 continues to increase in the US; I was speaking more to the fact that we're far behind the rest of the world in terms of the sheer numbers of fans and fanatics. Obviously, Nascar still heavily overshadows F-1 here. I'm not a big fan of oval track racing, but from what I've been reading, drivers say that oval tracks are more difficult and dangerous to drive.
Jack -
That's an excellent idea about Montreal!
~C |
ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 225
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 11:03 am: | |
if you want to be at an exciting venue for the uninitiated then monaco takes the cake. if you want to watch a usually great race, then spa rarely disappoints. silverstone is probably in that same category since the weather is always so unpredictable (read shite !). i have been an f1 nut since my father first took me to monaco in 1973, hung out with the drivers and mechanics and i got loads of autographs and had a great time. dave is right that it has gotten a lot less visceral and a lot more technical, but there is fascination with that as well.....my current dedication to the sport may also be colored (red) by the fact that my team is winning.... |
Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
New member
Username: Chuck_98_rt10
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 10:06 pm: | |
I gotta agree with Dave "automation taking the real drivers skills out of his hands."
I still enjoy F1, but for the venues and speeds rather than the competition (of which there is very little). Typical F1 outcome is determined by who gets through turn one first. I still enjoy it but I can�t watch it believing there is gonna be any significant position changes so I just marvel at how fast those cars go. Schumacher on the pole, Schumacher first into turn one, Schumacher wins.
As far as USA interest goes, I don�t see how anyone can say the US is any less interested than any other country. How many people went to the inaugural F1 race at Indy? If it wasn�t sold out it was close to it.
I also like NASCAR.
|
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 350
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 6:18 am: | |
mick - forza basically doesn't have a web site. they haven't for years.
here's their contact info.
Ross Periodicals Inc.
Circulation Dept
PO Box 1529
Ross, CA 94957
415/382-0580
415/382-0587
doody. |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 153
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 5:40 am: | |
From a brit, living in Britain who used to love the sport, its now extremely boring and has been progressing this way for several years now.
The only interest comes from pitting strategy, very little comes from the actual racing.
Why has it got this way, well there are many well documented and discussed reasons, one that seems to regularly surface is that of 'automation taking the real drivers skills out of his hands' (clutchless gearboxes) and the other seems to be the issue of aerodynamics that make passing very dangerous due to airflow disturbance when close enough to effect a pass.
If you get excited by F1 in its current form then it doesnt take much of a thrill to get you going! I watch Erosport coverage of Cart (or whatever they feel like calling it these days) and it far exceeds F1 for excitement/passing 'on the track' is a common occurrence, incidents are often, because they are actually trying to pass on track, rather than wait to do it in the pits!
Ecclestone has without doubt moved the sport forward in terms of TV coverage BUT I think its time he went. |
Mick (Devote)
New member
Username: Devote
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 3:31 am: | |
Does anyone know how to get a hold of FORZA magazine online? The address I have says "being built." The latest issue of the mag says that Rubens was able to finally "take his first win for Ferrari" at the Nurburgring this year. Doesn't anyone remember the man's tears on the podium at Hockenheim in 2000? The only true gentleman left in F1 deserves an accurate accounting of his accomplishments. |
Jack (Gilles27)
Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 515
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 3:00 am: | |
Mick, good point. Because of all the racing I watch, I have found myself tuning into other things like rally and motorcycles. I'm not really a fan of these, but I find myself getting into them when they're on. |
Mick (Devote)
New member
Username: Devote
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 2:48 am: | |
A passion for driving and for Ferraris being the bud that blossoms into an appreciation for the feats of Formula One drivers is interesting because it was the opposite for me. After watching M. Doohan dominate the world motorcycle championships, I happened to flip the channel one day in time to see some German named Schumi flog his Benneton around Hockenheim. From that moment I was hooked on F1. The next season, that same Schumi strapped himself into a red car and suddenly the Scuderia shield shone like a beacon of motor racing passion and heritage. I had to find out what exactly was being built in Maranello that so ignited the passion of the tifosi and Ferraristi alike. The rest is history, of course. I still lament the fact that if the new 575 will be sold with paddle shift over manual at a four to one ratio, is there a corresponding number of buyers who purchase because of price as opposed to passion? |
Jack (Gilles27)
Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 513
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 2:43 am: | |
Chris, I think about racing now compared to, oh, 25 years ago when I got into it, and it's definitely a different animal. My first GP was actually the '82 Long Beach race, although I had been to several Indy 500s by then. I think it's missing that "romantic" certain allure that sports have given up in general for the financial end. But I also believe that the best way to hook someone into racing is to drag them to an event. Long Beach, even though it's CART, is a good place to start. Indy is easy for me since I live in Chicago, but maybe plan a trip to Montreal next year. I've done it for over 10 years, and I can guarantee no one will be disappointed. It's a great city, it's relatively cheap, and the cars will make a fan of anyone. I've done this with several friends, none of whom were car or racing fans, and now they're lifers. Even guys that used to slam F1 have seen the light, so don't give up on your friends. |
chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member
Username: Entelechy
Post Number: 106
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 2:04 am: | |
I agree Jack, but it's not exactly "easy" to take them to an F-1 Grand Prix. About the closest thing locally is the Long Beach Grand Prix. In fact, I used to be one of those people who couldn't understand why people enjoyed watching racing events. Once I realized my dream of owning a Ferrari was getting within reach, I began heavily researching them. Upon reading driving reviews, I kept coming upon concepts I didn't understand; just basic stuff like "oversteering" and "understeering". Now that I've been through Kart
Racing School and Bob Bondurant's four day Grand Prix course, I have a whole new fascination, apprectiation and tremendous respect for the skills of those drivers. I've tried to teach these techniques to my friends, but they say it feels weird to them and they give up after a day. Oh well, it's nice to have a group online like this that shares my passions for Ferrari's and driving.
Best,
~Chris |
Jack (Gilles27)
Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 509
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 9:13 pm: | |
Chris, needing stats to prove F1's status to your friends is exactly why Americans are ignorant to the sport. It's not about stats. Take them to a race, and then see how that compares in their minds to a football, basketball or baseball game. It'll blow them away. I've done the same thing with a bunch of friends (typical neanderthal, stick and ball sport types) and they're all now huge F1 fans. I'm a strong believer that you need to bring people out to the track to sell them on racing. TV doesn't do it the proper justice. |
Al Johnson (Bigal)
New member
Username: Bigal
Post Number: 33
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 3:19 pm: | |
...and pretty much all oval racing. |
Al Johnson (Bigal)
New member
Username: Bigal
Post Number: 32
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 3:16 pm: | |
I love F1 and am SICK TO DEATH of NASCAR. |
chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member
Username: Entelechy
Post Number: 105
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 2:40 pm: | |
Big help - thanks again Doody! I've tracked down episodes through agency friends before - I'd love to get those episodes.
Best,
~Chris |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 348
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 11:54 am: | |
here's a transcript of the 60 minutes show. i don't recall whether this is complete or not.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/07/60II/main508224.shtml
they say:
* $80M / year for schumacher
* 300M people follow the sport
* ferrari employs 550 people for the F1 team
* and spends $170M to $285M per year on F1
can't find a link to the video anywhere though.
doody.
|
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 346
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 11:36 am: | |
the 60 minutes II piece that charlie rose did on m. schumacher included some stats. i found it on some site somewhere - you might try searching for that. the numbers are huge.
MS is the highest paid athlete in the world right now. $60M to $100M per year based on various estimates (nobody knows the exact number i believe, though $80M seems to be commonly thrown about.
according to a vodafone press release, some 360M people watch each race. according to an SAP press release from 2000, it's 450M.
i remember some stat that ferrari spends a quarter billion a year just on the F1 program and that program employs over 100 people (this might be from the 60 minutes ii piece).
here's an interesting stat from http://www.johann-sandra.com/popularindex.htm :
[[[Formula One Racing has the largest television viewing audience in the world with just the Formula One championship bringing in 40 billion viewers annually. Considering there are only 6 billion people in the world, less than half with television sets, and only a fraction of those caring about Formula One racing, that's quite a few... When questioned, the FIA did not respond.]]]
a compaq press release from 2000 on their F1 involvement used a 50B number for a similar statement.
doody. |
chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member
Username: Entelechy
Post Number: 101
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 11:22 am: | |
Hi Guys,
I've been trying to convince my friends of the immense worldwide popularity of Formula One, but because they live here in America where it's still largely "undiscovered" they want statistics to back up what I'm saying. I'm a relatively new fan to F-1, but even combing all the websites, I haven't been able to come up with any significant stats to back up my claims. I've heard everything from F-1 is second only to soccer (er, football to the rest of the world) in terms of being the world's most popular sport to Michael Schumacher being the highest paid athlete in the world. These guys want proof (yes, it's silly, but I'm getting sick of having to defend it all the time and want to silence their mocking, derisive laughter! OK, I'm prone to hyperbole, but you get my drift...)
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
~Chris
-- Hey, I finally broke 100! |
Anonymous
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