| Author | Message | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
New member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2002 |
Okay, just to put things into perspective: According to Sports Car Market June 2002 Issue 1986 Ferrari Testarossa, red/black, 40,133kms, condition 1- (scale of 1-6, 1 being the best) sold at Bonhams Auction in Geneva Switzerland on March 11, 2002 for, get this, $24,753 INCLUDING BUYER'S PREMIUM. Of course, the market in Europe is a little softer than in the States. Still, I think that what people are asking for their cars in the Ferrari Market Letter and other ads has little to do with what the cars are really selling for. Cavallino lists the value of '84-'91 TR's as $40K-$90K and SCM states $40K-$60K. Since most of these cars have very little miles on them, you can assume that an '88 with high miles (for a Ferrari) is going to be somewhere on the low end of those estimates. Sell it now for $35K, keep on driving it and sell it later for $25K, what's the difference? | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 389 Registered: 1-2001 |
A 328 should sell on ebay for at least 30 K. Probably more. Why don't you try it? I don't think many people will come by and test drive. Just don't allow them. Give them a ride. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 137 Registered: 8-2001 |
Terrance: without telling you "I told you so" I am not surprised at the dealer's offer. Remember, I got $35K for an 88TR, with similar mileage!!!!!!! My recomendation: Drive the 328 and buy your TR. Your 328 can't go much lower than $25K, regardless of miles. That way, you won't put too many miles on the TR. In the long run, you can drive the 328 weekly, and the TR monthly, without putting a lot of miles on it!!!!!! If you can't afford to have both, then, drive the 328, since it can't go much lower than $25K. Remember, if you sell the 328, and buy the TR, you will be putting miles on it, rather than the 328, hence, you will even loose more money when it comes time to sell the TR. Am I right?........At $25K, your car will NEVER be lower!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T sell on consignment, since the dealer will nickel-and-dime you to get your car acording to their "standards".......that will cost you another $5K. Good luck | ||
| terrence edwards (4re4t)
New member Username: 4re4t Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2002 |
Well everyone here's the 1st verdict... I got a trade offer of 25k for my 328 (71k). That was from an independent dealer in Dallas. I dont know...for some silly reason I still believe my car to be worth more than a new Camry! They did say Id probably do better putting it on consignment. I dont even know if I feel like going thru the hassle of trying to sell it myself...people coming around wanting to joy ride in the car. Next thing you know Ive got 5k more miles that I didnt even get the pleasure of racking up. Id rather keep it. I still may check out a couple of other dealers but I doubt the offers will be different. Im waking up from my TR dream.  | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
New member Username: Donv Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2002 |
Henry, I saw your car in FML. It was the cheapest TR in there. That's probably why you get a lot of dealers responding. Unfortunately, it's also the highest mileage TR in that issue, maybe the highest mileage car in the whole issue (excluding the ones with no mileage listed at all, which are probably also high mile cars). I've been looking through each issue at the mileage in the ads, and it's really amazing. Everyone claims their Ferrari has 15k or fewer miles. I suspect that the mileage is the problem. Personally, I'm partial to high mile cars, I'd prefer to have a car which has been used regularly to one which has been sitting. But, I'm not looking for a TR, either... Maybe you should take the mileage out of your ad ;-) | ||
| j scott leonard (Jscott)
Junior Member Username: Jscott Post Number: 146 Registered: 1-2002 |
I put a reconditioned 328 front air dam on Ferrariads.com and had a sale in one day. Pretty pleased, it just ads up to what you are selling and who is buying. | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 385 Registered: 1-2001 |
Just a note from my side. Where did u try selling the car? Ferrariads.com doesn't work in my opinion. The layout is just too bulky. Just last week I put a USD model 328/308 QV exhaust system on it for 100 USD and did not get one reply to it. Not even one guy asked for a picture of it. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 184 Registered: 4-2002 |
Would you take 42k for it? Sounds like a good deal on a 30% daily driver. How is the car cosmetically? If you TRULY want to get 49k for you car, might I recommend reconditioning the leather in the interior. http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/28107.html I think this small amount of money could yield lots in the selling price. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 131 Registered: 5-2002 |
Henry you may also want to take into account where you are advertising the car. From your description of the car it sounds like you just need to find someone who is genuinly looking for a TR and not just looking to buy a TR to flip. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member Username: Ross Post Number: 224 Registered: 3-2002 |
even in europe the tr market is not that bad. i would say that for quality cars its probably equivalent to the states. henryk, if you ever decide to just lose the car, i might be willing to pay something halfway between your ask and the dealer's bid. as you say, there is a lot to be said for a well maintained car with miles - shows me that it can handle useage. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2565 Registered: 5-2001 |
I believe the TRs have pretty much bottomed out at this point. You might as well keep it and stick to your price. No need to hurry in selling it not to lose more money. As far as prie I think you are close to what you should be getting. So asking $50K for your car is pretty much right on. Selling at $ 45-48K should be possible. Remember it takes a qualified buyer to purchase this car. Also one that is looking for a Testarossa. Keep on working it. It takes a few months till you get the right buyer on ANY Ferrari. Martin Cavallino Motors www.4Ferrari.com | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 191 Registered: 7-2001 |
I think part of the problem with prices is the exposure we get to the european market via SportsCarMarket etc. They always highlight auctions and the Testarossa series car in europe are being sold in the 30's. Folks read that here and assume you will take that kind of $$ for your car. They fail to realize the Fcar market here is different. We are not in Europe. JMHO | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Junior Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2002 |
Henryk: I tried to sell the car for over four months with no takers. Keep in mind that i just had the major service done so i was in the car for another $6K-$7K. I realy don't know what is going on with the TR market. The dealer had the car on his website for $71K and honestly don't know what he sold it for. For $35K just keep the car and enjoy it. | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 384 Registered: 1-2001 |
You should keep the Tr as your daily driver then. Can't loose much more. If you sell it now and put the mileage on the BBi, you are in double sh....... | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 134 Registered: 8-2001 |
Argyle: I agree with you, and I believe that there is NO current Ferrari that one can enjoy, and NOT loose money on. The question is how much? I believe that the economy has a LOT to do with the Ferrari prices at this time........and, as always, the economy turns around. Therefore, for those high mileage car owners out there, my advice is to enjoy them!!!!!!!!!! It would seem that high mileage Ferrari cars, in decent condition, are a real bargain......how much lower can they go? I doubt that my 88TR will EVER be only worth $20K.....regardless of miles. Terrance: Keep your 328......drive it into the ground......and have FUN!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 133 Registered: 8-2001 |
Christian: You are wrong in regards to me being a "Ferrari owner, but not a Ferrari driver". I have had 8 Ferraris, and have always put 5-10K miles on them per year......as I will continue to do. I can't just LOOK at them, as many owners do. It is obvious that there is a HUGE beating to take on a high mileage car......which has been known for a long time now......that is why I feel that a good share of them are driven with the speedometer disconnected.......it is just TOO EASY to NOT do!!!!!!!!!! If my car is worth only $40K, then, if I drive it into the ground, it has to be still worth $30K. Think about it.....it will only cost me $10K to drive it another 50K miles.......now, which other car can you do that in?..and I am driving a FERRARI!!!!!! That way, I don't have to drive the Boxer that much!!!!!!! In the long run I will save more by driving the TR, and having a lot of fun, than it would be if I sold it, and had to put all those miles on the Boxer!!! This is a REAL incentive to keeping the TR. Maybe I will then only put 500 miles a year on the Boxer, and keep it's value up. Therefore, it makes sense to keep the TR. ELI: When you sold your TR to the dealer, for $58,000, what did he list it at afterwards?...and what did he eventually sell it for?...remember, he HAS to make a decent profit!!!!!!! Why didn't you try and sell it yourself for $65,000? I agree that $58,000 is a lot of money......but $35,000....that is the price of an average decent NEW car. You drive that car 10,000 miles and you will loose more than $10,000. So, I think that I will keep my TR, drive the HELL out of it, and save the Boxer for future resale. If the economy gets better, then, I make even make money on the Boxer, while still putting 5-10K miles per year on the TR. | ||
| Argyle Co (Argyleco)
Junior Member Username: Argyleco Post Number: 78 Registered: 3-2001 |
Henryk, Here are my experiences: 1. I had a 91 TR Red/Tan, 15k miles with the 30k miles service completed, Borla exhaust. I bought the car for $72k with the 30k service done from FOSA. I put another $7k into the car to get it perfect (including a Borla exhauset). I had it for 1.5 years and traded it for a 96 993TT. An auto broker completed the transaction by getting me a 96 993TT and getting a buyer for my TR. The whole deal cost me $3k. I was able to keep my updated 512TR wheels, which I just sold (Rims and tires had less than 300 miles). This was on 6/02 2. I purchased a 93 348 Speciale, White/Tan, 5k miles from FOH for $72k (including shipping). I kept had the car for 2 years and traded it in to FOSA for a brand new 02 XKR, the difference was $9.5k. This was back in 10/01 So the moral of this story is buy the car enjoy it, because when it's time to sell it you will loose money. | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Junior Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 99 Registered: 4-2002 |
Henryk: To give you an idea i sold my TR two years ago, 89 black/tan with 17K miles for $58,000 to a local dealer and yes it was a very hard sale. for some reason the bottom has fallen on the TR and the 355. | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 382 Registered: 1-2001 |
Henryk: Sounds like a good deal you did on the BBi. Of course they can't give you what the TR is worth. They are having the same problem selling high mileage cars. I disagree with most people saying that the odometers are not showing the right mileage. You can't just drive those cars like a Porsche, neverending nightmare when it comes to maintenance. Henryk I guess you are now a Ferrari owner but not a Ferrari driver :-). I sold my Mondial and the guy who bought it already thinks I screwed him because it is not shifting as a Honda Civic (probably only the floor mat under the clutch pedal). Christian | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 132 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thanks Bruno for the info: That confirms to me that the 88TR is really only worth $35K to almost $40K, which I believe.....but that is to a DEALER......and he has to make a profit, without taking a chance on the car. I don't think that ANY dealer would take a Ferrari on trade, if he couldn't make at least $5-10K profit. And, considering the repair costs, he would add another, at least $5-7K, to that as a safety buffer. Therefore, I am priced right at $49,900. I wouldn't be surprised if the dealer, after giving me 35-40 for the car, would have it detailed and list it for $54,900. Let's face it.....Who in the world would sell a perfect running 88TR for $35K-$40K? At these prices I am wondering if the car would be worth more parted out? Remember, It is only worth that little if someone actually sells it for that......I had the chance with my dealer at $35K and refused. I believe there is a psychological effect in one wanting a certain car, and willing to take less for his trade-in.......dealers take advantage of that. When did you EVER hear of a dealer paying a fair price for a car......there ONLY motive is PROFIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....and NOTHING else....they have NO attachment to the cars that they take in on trade......whereas, the buyer/user does. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 326 Registered: 5-2002 |
I described your TR to a Ferrari dealer I know. he said if you bought the boxer from him he would have offered 35k for the TR. Maybe more but not 40k. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 131 Registered: 8-2001 |
Christian: I paid $75,000......17500 miles......Pebble Beach quality!!!!!!! | ||
| terrence edwards (4re4t)
New member Username: 4re4t Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2002 |
I, like Henryk, will keep my car if the price isnt right. Ill buy that Tubi exhaust and keep on truckin. Unfortunately Im not a big enough player to keep it and get my TR. I live about 10 min from Exotic Car World. I think I will drop in for a visit. Ill keep yall posted. T | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 379 Registered: 1-2001 |
Henryk: I would be interested in how much you paid for your BBi? Mileage, condition etc. Thanks, Christian | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 607 Registered: 7-2001 |
Terrence, I'd be floored if FOD offers you anywhere near $38k for your car. I'd guess closer to $30k is what they'd offer. What are you trying to trade it on? You might take a look at Exotic Car world and let them sell it for you on consignment. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 129 Registered: 8-2001 |
Terrance, I wish you luck in selling your 87 328. The Ferrari dealer wanted to give $35K for my car in trade on an 83 BBi. I would be curious to see what your dealer offers you......but, as usual in the car trade market, there are two prices to play with......so figures could be manipulated by the dealer. Remember: "Figures don't lie...... but liars Figure". In my actual experience I have found that, while the major service is of concern, it is GREATLY outweighed by the mileage, to the buyers. It is almost impossible to convince them that the car is in great condition.......I certainly must be hiding something!!!!!!! Yet the LOW mileage (often disconnected speedometer) Ferrari must be in great condition, etc., etc. It must be a psychological thing. Several, who have called on my car just want to steal it (must be due to the economy)......I don't object......I would like to get a steal myself....yet to happen on a Ferari!!!!!!!! I ended up buying the Boxer outright......did get a GOOD deal that way.....it was on consignment. Luckily I am prepared to keep both. If I keep the TR and get 150K miles on it, I will have figured that I got ALL my money's worth out of it........could then even throw it over a cliff, and watch it REALLY smoke!!!!!! | ||
| billy zissis (89tr)
Junior Member Username: 89tr Post Number: 206 Registered: 4-2001 |
My TR also does not smoke on start up. Not a single puff of smoke. Doe to the design of the flat twelve oil that is left on the cylinder wall when the engine is shut down will seep past the piston rings and be present in the combustion chamber. When started it will burn and that is why you get smoke. My car has 35,000 miles on her and she will not smoke at all even when left for two weeks. Christian that is not true about the heads or the tranny. They are very robust and if the car has been properly driven will last in the the 100,000 miles. There is a car in California where the guy uses it everysingle day and it has about 147,000 miles with no engine or tranny work done except for services. And he says it still runs as strong as the day he got it. Christian I might be interested in those heads | ||
| terrence edwards (4re4t)
New member Username: 4re4t Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hey everyone. Im relatively new to the list and Im very close to posting my 87 328 for sale. I personally feel that the more a Ferrari has been driven, the better. My Grigio/Nero 328 has 71k ultra reliable miles!!! Im waiting for a local dealer (in Dallas) to make me a trade offer. Id LIKE to get $38k for the car.(cosmetically and mechanically about as good as they get, and Im about to get the 75k service done) Does this seem fair?? (Ive never sold a Ferrari before. If I can get what I need, Henryk Id be damned interested in talking to you regarding your TR. BTW--Ive been studying TRs for quite a while, from my studies, they all smoke alittle on start up. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 126 Registered: 8-2001 |
OK, I concede to engine smoke on a TR as being normal. I usually look in the rear view mirror, when I start my TR, and see no smoke.......however, after sitting for a month, and having someone stand behind the car....it DID produce a puff of blue smoke....not seen from the rear view mirror. I stand corrected!!!!!! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 573 Registered: 6-2001 |
My plane which has horizontal 6 cylinder engines smokes when just started. Those are 85 in cylinders however, but my Porsche did the same thing. I think that when you have an aircooled engine, the clearances are bigger, and the chance of smoke increases. Art | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 66 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ed - I agree with everyone's observation about smoke at startup. My 86 TR does exhibit blue oil smoke when I start it after several weeks of well deserved rest. However, after the initial 500 turns of the crankshaft, the smoke is gone. As I suggested in my previous post, I attribute this to the horizontal nature of the cylinders, not withstanding your Corvair experience. I, too, enjoyed a Corvair, and I do remember smoke at start up that cleared rapidly. It was definitely there with my old Porsche. Finally, I have read of this phenomenon with horizontal cylinders in many trade journals. Now that I think of it, I experience the same with my BMW R90/6 motorcycle. Jim Selevan | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 615 Registered: 4-2001 |
I'll add a little on the smoke of the TR. Every so often, I would get some blue smoke at start up (especially after I come back from vacation and its been siting a couple weeks.) Gone completely in 3 minutes. The car itself burns a quart every 1200 - 1300 miles and I drive it hard (live in the 4500 - 6800 range) and leaks no oil. Based on performance and oil burn, I figure it will smoke a little when it wants to smoke. My prognosis is ignore it until the engine behaves differently. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 887 Registered: 1-2001 |
Henry -- Please let us know how round 2 goes (always interesting to know the details of a real deal). | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 125 Registered: 8-2001 |
Steve: The major was done at 48,000 miles, together with replacement of the differential, with a stronger, 512TR, type. The car is a 5-lug US version. I would tend to lightly agree with your assesment of 90/150, but only if the car NEEDS it done.....who knows, it could go longer.....I have read about TR's with 170K and over 200K miles, with no engine rebuild. Now THAT is bullet-proof! Chris: I don't think the dealer wanted my car in trade. They offered me $35K, plus I would have to pay for a complete inspection, etc.....add another $5K! I respectfully disagee with your blanket statement that the trans, and engine heads, will need rebuilding at 80K miles......these items are extremely variable in regards to miles put on before needing a rebuild. Ken: The big deal is: When the dealer is selling a Ferrari that smokes.....that is normal.....I have seen this numerous times. They are trying to get buyers to believe that this is a common situation, without being a problem....I disagree. Both, my car, and Jim's non-smoking TR prove this. Jim: I am prepared to keep the car, if I can't get what I am asking. The TR is wild looking, and the Boxer is classy....best of both worlds. This thread was started, not to try and sell my car.....The last 6 Ferraris I sold have always been to someone from Chicago....I live in the Green Bay area. I just thought that readers would be interested in seeing how a Ferrari sells, in this post ENRON market. Thanks for the responses. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1704 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have a customer that has an 87 TR and it was purchased with 15,000 miles showing but due to the ammount of oil residue and road grime under the car I seriously doubt the exact reading. Anyway, this car smokes on startup at times. Sometimes none at all and sometimes a pretty good cloud comes out. I do not know how much oil consumption the car has but this is just an observation. It has always run well but has an appointment for week after next due to the fact it stalled on the Interstate last week and will not restart. I will post my findings when I get it in for surgery. By the way, My old Corvair has a flat cylinder layout similar to the TR and does not smoke at all when started. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 65 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ken - I second your question. I have seen discussions on Ferrarichat suggesting that TRs have a tendency to smoke. I have had mine for 14 years without a hint of smoke (30,000 miles). If there is a tendency to smoke, it likely stems from the horizontal design. While resting, oil may tend to seep from the head into the cylinder and stay there (unlike a relatively vertical cylinder of a V design). When starting, this oil will create smoke for a few moments. This was a notorious problem with my old 356 Porsche. My understanding is that the bottom is bulletproof - that is, driven "appropriately", one should expect many (150K plus) miles without failure. Perhaps top end work might be required prior to that. My experience with three Ferraris, and shared experience with many Ferrari owners is that most work done on engines results from the owner's wanting to "tinker", or make the car better, or bring it back to factory condition, or they do not like that sound, or it leaks a little oil, or it's winter and I have nothing to do. It would be interesting to do a survey on Ferrarichat to see how many engines have been rebuilt, and for what reason (necessity versus desire). If you are unable to fetch $49,000 for your TR, depending upon finances, you might choose to keep it. Twelve cylinder Ferraris are never easy to come buy (pun intended), and you can distribute future miles between the two cars. My thoughts. Jim Selevan | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 375 Registered: 1-2001 |
By the way, I have two US model cylinder heads from a 89 TR for sale. The heads have been rebuild fresh, new valve guides and seals, new valve adjustments, valve job etc etc., zero (0) miles on the heads after overhaul. Including camshafts of course. Make me an offer. | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Junior Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 100 Registered: 2-2002 |
Henry: Why do you keep stating that the engine does not smoke? Do TR's have a habit of emitting smoke? I have never heard of this as being a concern. | ||
| Christian (Christiank)
Member Username: Christiank Post Number: 374 Registered: 1-2001 |
Don't understand why you bought another Ferrari from the dealer and did not trade your TR in. The TR is not bulletproof. At 80 K you need a transmission and/or differential work. Your engine is also ready for an overhaul at that time (both heads). Of course your car is good for CA, as far as I know all Ferrari (except BB/BBi - no joke) are CA legal. I had my Euro TR tested for emissions (smog test in Vancouver) and it would pass easily, even without cat. Good luck. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 886 Registered: 1-2001 |
Where's the car with respect to it's next major service? If it's relatively fresh, I say stick to your guns (especially if your's is a 5-lug '88) -- if not, you might cave a $K or 2 with no regrets IMO. US version TRs are the same for all 50 states (I think) -- you can check the emission label on the underside of the rear engine bonnet to confirm -- so, if yours is an unaltered US version, it's no different than a "CA" TR (but whether any particular US TR would pass the CA test limits is a valid concern). "Bullet Proof" to me implies a ruggedness -- in the sense that you can extract most of what the powertrain can deliver, quite often, without too much risk of blowing it up -- rather than an especially long service life (although I'd concede the two are not unrelated). I think it's fair to put an average 90K mile life on the top end and an average 150K mile life on the bottom end so I'd use 63/90 and 63/150 factors to guesstimate the $price reduction from "zero miles" -- JMO. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 124 Registered: 8-2001 |
I thought that I would share my experience in selling an 88 TR.....those with TR's may benefit. The TR has 63,000 miles on it...in excellent condition (considering mileage), black with tan interior. I am asking $49,900. The Ferrari dealer told me I am priced right. I just bought an 83 BBi from them. Caller #1: From CA (I live in WI): Was interested in the condition of the paint. By his questions he wanted Pebbles Beach quality. Then he asked if the car would pass CA emissions. The car is a US model bought from IL. I told him I wasn't sure, and recommended that he look for a CA car......he agreed. Caller #2: From Chicago area: Was more interested in the price. I told him, any less, and that would be in 308 territory......he disageed, and stated that he had my number. Caller #3: From Chicago area: Was most concerned about the mileage. I stated that the engine did NOT smoke, but that went nowhere....he was ONLY concerned about mileage. I have seen TR's with LESS miles, and they smoked.....even the dealer stated that this is normal for a TR.......my car has to prove them wrong........am I missing something? The prospect asked that I call him, when I am in the Chicago area......I said I would, but never did ask for his number. What does it mean when people say that the TR engine is "bullet proof"? Will it stop a bullet? To me, it means that the car can go many miles without a rebuild. Again, am I wrong? |