| Author | Message | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 273 Registered: 11-2001 |
alright, First correction: I line bored the crank shaft bore, not the cylinder liners. This is to bring the crank bore to true spec. They do this by cutting the caps and boring it back to size. Second, I only honed the liners to get back a crosshatch patterns. They were all within specs and were fine, as were the pistons that go into them, except for one piston where some PO did a very strange thing of enlarging the ring groove. So I had to replace that. And then, balance the pistons back to less than 2 grams like the WSM says. Did use new circlips, but kept the old wrist-pins as they showed no sign of any wear. Third, the WSM only suggested replacing the rod nuts which I did, but did not replace the rod bolts, which the book did not call for. Fourth, I did use boring gauges and micrometers to size up all the crank specs, liner specs, bore specs and made sure everything was within specifications. Fifth, changed all bearings inside the engine like you said, Mitch_Alsup. Sixth, I am happy for the learning experience, and the way my engine came back together. I guess how long it lasts, only time will tell. Finally, it's your car, do what you like. If you want to replace everything inside the engine whether or not the parts were within specs, it is your right. Peace of mind costs money, I drew my own line at replacing the parts that are only out of specs per the WSM. In the context of this original message where if a belt broke and the engine had to be repaired, I would seriously doubt that the dealer would automatically rebuild the engine from scratch and replace all wearable items. But, if you have the money to pay for it, I am sure they would oblige. Peace. No need to debate further. | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 134 Registered: 10-2001 |
I did the things Mitch mentioned regarding the crank, cleaning oil galleys, thrust clearance etc. I was stupid and reused the rod bolts - but I assume they aren't torque to yield and can be reused (at least once anyway) without any problems. I've only got 13k on the engine now but another 20k or so and I'll be itching to tear it down again anyway and next time do a more complete job. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 104 Registered: 4-2002 |
How can you bore the block and not end up using new pistons? <shaking> Pistons are supposed to be matched to the size of the bore to a few thousandths (like 6 thou), unless you just cleaned up the bore (which can be done with a hone) by a couple of thousandths. Any more and you end up with a lot of piston slap. Also (as long as you have good access to the block) you should have removed the crank, used a micrometer on all the throws and shafts, run a wire brush up all the oiling tunnels, installed new bearings, and setup the thrust clearance. While inside you need to go through the oil pump, and galleys. At least magnifluxed the rods, and used new piston pins and clips, and new rod bolts. You are comparing an american engine rebuild to a factory engine rebuild. The cost structures are different, because a different amount of work is performed, and the longevity of the engine is different. Many times the performance is also different. The factory wants to return the engine to a state where it has just as many miles left in it as it had when it left the factory the first time. | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 267 Registered: 11-2001 |
Good point. I did everything except for the new pistons, new head studs, new rod bolts. Those were all in decent shape and so were left alone. I really don't believe that every time one rebuilds an engine, one has to change all the pistons. You only do that when you are trying to accomplish higher compression, or larger pistons (due to boring the liners) or they were cracked. Otherwise, rebalance them, and reuse them is perfect for many engine rebuilds. Just my humble opinions. | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 133 Registered: 10-2001 |
I don't think most of us would consider that an engine "rebuild". I think a rebuild (not just the heads) requires: new pistons - all (i paid $200 each for forged high comp) new valves - all valve springs valve seals head bolts rod bolts cam chains or belts All bearings of any type and while you are in there, might as well change clutch, pressure plate, and throwout bearing. Many would rebuild oil and water pumps at the same time (probably not necessary unless engine has many miles on it). | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 266 Registered: 11-2001 |
I am just about finished with a total engine rebuild of a GT4 308, down to the crank shaft. This is what I have into it. $1500 for machine shop which includes valve job, grind heads, grind decks of blocks, install stud inserts, bore block, grind crankshaft, polished cams. Actually, I think this is a very good price. $400 for new valves (belt broke, 8 valves bent) $150 for new valve guides $200 for Total seal rings $750 for gasket set plus $200 for an extra head gasket set (my fault) $300 Tools I had to buy for this job (I started with a very healthy set up of tools though) $200 Misc chemicals, lubricants, etc. $500 misc stuff that is just going to happen because you have the engine out and ... Did not touch the clutch, or the transmission. They were OK. I bought new tires, painted the wheels, and rebuilt the suspension, but these had nothing to do with the engine rebuild so they are not added to the engine costs. Total for an engine rebuild from scratch: $4000. So if you screwed up a few things like I did, you'll be looking at inside of $5K. Or, you can use the $1000 to pay for more machining cost. That was my actual costs. Sure beats guessing at it. If you do pay someone to do it all for you, then, oh well, $12-$15K is what you'll be looking at. Anymore than that and you are paying for someone to learn how to do it on your car. | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2001 |
I think Mitchell's estimates are a bit low. Perhaps by "do it yourself" he includes machining? Or assumes no machining is necessary? It cost me $1500 for machine work on a dino V6 that had dropped a valve. Parts cost (from superformance - not ferrari dealer) was another $3000 (valves, guides, springs, pistons, bearings, gaskets, chains, etc.). That means if you do all the wrenching yourself the cheapest you can properly do a V6 for is about $4500. For V8, V10, or V12 I suspect you should be up in the $7-12k range for the extra parts needed and the fact that the newer stuff often costs more anyway! If you are paying for labor? I can say that it took about a day to remove the engine, take it all apart, wash stuff up, and drop off at the machine shop. It took another day to assemble engine and another day to install and get it going (3 hours alone just trying to get a wrench to the stupid header bolts!) So labor for a V6 rebuild is going to be about 24 hours (machining extra). I suspect the shops budget something like 50 hours of labor for a newer Ferrari engine rebuild. I wouldn't let them get away with anything more than that though. It may take them more man hours than that because they aren't familiar with rebuilding newer engines (how many could they have done, you know?) but you aren't paying them to learn how to do it. So $5k tops for labor. It's just nuts and bolts, you know. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 101 Registered: 4-2002 |
I wasn't trying to scare him, but to give him a realistic cost structure for returning abused and neglected Ferraris back to factory condition. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 83 Registered: 8-2002 |
 | ||
| Mitchell Minh Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 264 Registered: 11-2001 |
Wow, Let's not scare the fellow to death. An engine out service with a reputable competent shop is $3000. If you do it yourself, it is $1000. An engine rebuild should be around $10-12K. If you do it yourself, it is in the $4-5K range. All in US$ | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2002 |
Its easy enough to look at the belts and feel the belts with a lift from the bottom of the car (pannel off), but there is no guarentee that the you can see any internal damage to a belt or belts. Service records would be required, or at least an invoice with replacement belts. You might be faced with 2 difficult possibilities: 1) there has not been a belt change service, or 2) there has not been a 30K service. And you have two options 1) ignore the issue, and 2) do preventive maintenance. It will cost at least $5K to do a 30K engine out service (more than likely more, as the $5K is to pull and replace the engine and the obvious stuff--belts, tappet adjustments). On the other hand, it would cost on-the-order of $20K if you have to rebuild an engine where a belt lets go. So, the best option is to find out if the 30K service has been performed within the last 3 years. If not, then value the car according to how much it will cost to set it right. | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 133 Registered: 4-2002 |
Peter, Short of seeing the service records, there is no sure fire way of knowing (even by looking at) the internal condition of the timing belts... David | ||
| Peter K. (Bubba)
Junior Member Username: Bubba Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2002 |
I am looking at this 95 F355 and would like to know if pre-purchase vehicle inspection can reveal the status of the cam and timing belts? Or do you have to take the engine out to do that? Thanks! |