| Author |
Message |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 3:13 pm: | |
Dave, its not just a bad practice it is a felony here in the colonies. But, people still do it ALL THE TIME. |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 207
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 3:35 am: | |
Hmmm, dont like the thought of speedo's being disconnected at all (unless its to replace or repair of course) There's no reason to do this that isn't suspicious or deceiving. If its to 'save miles on the Odo' its very bad practice, I dont care if it is recorded, it doesnt make it good for me! This response does nothing for my view of vehicle traders practices! |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 4:47 pm: | |
Dave, you're correct that a trained eye can tell the difference between a 30k car and a 5k car without looking at the odometer. But, its a little more difficult to distinguish between a 10k and 20k car or a 15k and a 30k car, especially if the driver took care of the car even though he drove it a lot. The fact is, in the U.S.A. anyway, that a lot of Ferraris have the speedo disconnected from time to time to save miles on the odometer. My mechanic says he has Ferarris and other exotics in all the time with the speedo disconnected. He says he always notes it on the invoice and reconnects it telling the owner that it must have viberated loose. He says they first look a little scared and then pissed off after he tells them what he found and did. As for me, I'll just drive mine until it the odometer rolls over and then i'll have a low mileage Ferrari again. Right ? |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 202
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 4:29 pm: | |
Oh dear, not that old chestnut again, "its low mileage so the speedo MUST have been disconnected", spare us this please. If you guys can't tell roughly the mileage without looking at the speedo at all, you aren't too smart. Ultra low miles is really obvious, not just by pedal rubbers which could have been easily replaced, there are literally thousands of other not so easily achieved giveaways. Detailed finishes versus original immaculate finishes in engine bays are fairly distinctly different! Only Concours judges and those closely involved know where I'm coming from here.
Mathew, most of your second list sums it up, but that doesnt mean I have to drive it regularly! Regarding my car, it was certainly never bought as an investment by me (although it certainly WAS by its first owner...he got it very wrong). Self Esteem didnt come into the equation at all.
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Matthew Lemus (Mlemus)
New member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 50
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:34 am: | |
If your self esteem is that low where you need a high price car in your garage and not drive it, then you have some serious issues. These cars are designed and dare I say, built to be enjoyed and driven. Maybe every day is a bit much. But at least take her out once a week to warm her up and get her fluids hot. (I am still talking about a car.) Garage Queens are nice to show off after you open the garage door and I will admit that the rare cars from the 40's to the 60's should not be driven in to the ground. But the newer ones from say 78 to even the new Enzo should be driven. If you worry about losing money, don't buy a car at all. Buy heating oil futures or something. If you own a F-car and let it sit because of the following reasons then you should not have gotten it in the first place.
1. For an investment
2. Worried about the cost of repairs
3. Showing off
4. Care nothing about the love of the F-car.
5. Status at the country club
If you got one for the follwing reasons, then you made the right choice.
1. The love of Ferrrari
2. Driving
3. The rich history of Ferrari
4. Driving
5. The style of the car
6. Driving.
Enjoy them. Drive them. Give them frequent service and a nice wax job and they will reward you.
If you want a car to sit in your garage and leak oil....Get a used lotus for about $25,000. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1297
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:02 am: | |
Dave, I was not kidding. If you only want to drive a Ferrari a few hundred miles a year you will be better off renting. That way you can sample the many different models available and then buy the one you really like one day when you can afford the time to really drive and enjoy one to own. And David, the prior owner may have just known how easy it is to disconnect the speedo ! |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 300
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 8:32 am: | |
The last owner of my car put 4 thousand miles on it in 6 years time.... That's about 666 miles a year... Could the last owner have been....
Satan? |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 201
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 8:25 am: | |
Lots of 'self kiddin' going on out there. To rent a car when I have time to drive, Frank I thought you were smarter than that, I live in the UK not the 'get anything you want yesterday at your door' USA situation, how the hell am I supposed to know when I will be able to go out grab the keys and spin her up without work commmitments? you were of course kidding so I think I'll ignore that rediculous idea, and owning is a huge part of the joy...or is that also a frowned upon concept?
To say any one of you guys will pay a premium for higher miles, yep and I am the sultan of Brunei, when it comes to getting your wad out you will get em as cheap as you can, and youll use the mileage to assist in that operation/negotiation.
This subject shows incredible hippocracy in F car fraternity IMHO. I suggest like Phil, you guys stop knocking guys like me as its you who get the ebnefit in the end. I get a near new F car that I CAN afford to own and when I'm done its available to those who dont mind when the mileage gets a little more realistic....what the hells the problem? |
phil hooper (Wolftalk)
New member
Username: Wolftalk
Post Number: 35
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 2:47 am: | |
ok, I'm going go against the thread and say I really appreciate the garage queen mentality.
why? Because after my daily driver '89 328 is dinged beyond salvage and the interior has bleached out from 10K miles/year use, I know I can go find another one in great shape that some guy has been waxing instead of driving. I like to think of the garage queen guys as beauticians for the car I haven't bought yet :-)
seriously, though, I think preservation of value is a valid point for some people. If they get sufficient pleasure from driving less that 3K miles/year, looking at the car in the garage, or hoping the car will appreciate, I can't say they enjoy their car less than I do.
Plus, I'd suggest that replacing the interior, fixing the body rot and repainting the car costs quite a bit more than replacing some seals - assuming you turn the wrench yourself, which is what most of us are doing in the tech section of fchat. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 143
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:30 am: | |
Bought a garage queen, been there, done that! After maintaining and servicing this car, I'm TOTALLY convinced that the key is not mileage, but "TLC". A medium/high mileage car that has had fastidious maintence is just as good as a low mileage car. The problem: Many medium mileage cars haven't had load of TLC. They have been spiffed up for sale. Often hard to tell from an otherwise well maintained car.
Garage queens are often neglected. Put aside, not driven or maintained. I'll repeat: Maintenance is key. Did the P.O. fix every little goof that happens as time and miles go by? Does it have a switch not working, A/C not working exactly right, carbs that aren't sync'd? Has there been at least some attempt at plugging oil leaks? (snicker, snicker,... yeah, right) Do the high mile seats look good for the mileage, indicating owner's care and gallons of Leatherique? You get what I mean. If you're buying a car, and the seller can explain every square inch, every last seal, well.. maybe you've found a superior car regardless of mileage. |
Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member
Username: Cmparrf40
Post Number: 399
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 9:23 pm: | |
Frank, you are dead-on.
If you have to worry about how much your car is going down in value everytime you go for a drive, you can not afford a Ferrari (or a Corvette, or a Viper, or a Yugo).
I have such a strong dislike for "posers" those who claim they are tifosi. They sit in there garages, staring at their car (underneath a cover)dreaming about drives they have never taken, telling stories about driving on tracks they have never been to......
Sell your car, let a real driver enjoy a Ferrari.
These are same people with plastic covers on their couches, plastic covers on the lamp shades and make you leave your shoes on the front porch.
(Sorry guys, I hate garage queens) |
billy zissis (89tr)
Junior Member
Username: 89tr
Post Number: 215
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 3:46 pm: | |
both daves, right on. First of all, i have seen more than my share of Ferraris where each time i see them it has the same exact mileage as the last time. If you wanted a something to look at buy a model. I have put over 35,000 miles combined on both of my ferraris in the last 4 years. It would have been more if i didnt have other cars as well. I drive them everysingle day. The car is made for enjoyment. I bought my 355 in May of 2001 with 11,000 miles and now it has 20,000 miles. do I regreat putting that many miles on it? Hell no, it has been great. Am I going to lose money if i sell it? Sure, but who says I am going to sell it. My cars are for keeps. I still regret selling my 308 to this day. I will never let go of something that is so close to my heart again. Could I disconnect the speedo? Sure, all i have to do is unclip one wire, but do I want to? No. because I want to see how many miles i can actually get. I would love to see these cars reach 1,000,000 miles. I will do it I promise you. It might take some time but I will hit. |
Joseph Caretti (Pino)
Junior Member
Username: Pino
Post Number: 76
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 2:58 pm: | |
That a boy Dave! Shag, er drive the hell out of it! |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 291
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 1:33 pm: | |
Well I may be called stupid for how I go about picking my cars, and I'm sure to piss off a few folks, but here goes....
I never, ever, but a car new anymore...
I will always let someone else take the loss on a new car.
And I never worry about how much I will get when I resale a car.... Because I buy a car for what it is intended for, transportation, not resale...
I can't even count the number of F-Cars I have looked at over the years that haven't been driven to 30thousand miles because the owners didn't want to, or couldn't afford to spend the money for the service, or were afraid that they might not get as much money when they were to sell it if it had a few more miles on it....
Well boys, let me tell you, 40 thousand miles is nowhere near being high miles.... You guys that are saving your cars for the next guy are missing out....
And before you hammer me because I own an inexpensive 308, I could just as easily afford a 355 and the services that would be associated with it, I choose to own a 308 because it is one of my favorites...
Let the next guy worry about his own car....
I'm also not one of these guys that will only drive the Ferrari every other weekend, so it will be special when I do drive it...
I drive it every chance I get.... and it's still special each time I drive it!
I sure as hell wouldn't make love to my wife every other weekend so it will be special when I do.... Hell I might get divorced some day, should I save her for the next guy? |
David White (Dwhite)
Junior Member
Username: Dwhite
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:00 am: | |
I still don't know why anyone would buy one of these cars if they are afraid of driving it. If it's the cost why did you buy, so you can tell your buddies you have one? I like to look at it, give me a f---en break. Get the model or a picture. Sorry, but listening to these idiotic statements just gets me mad, you don't deserve to own one. High mileage vs low mileage get the one you want and drive it, enjoy it, sell it, take your loss(what am I saying, what loss, it's a blast). Vacations cost money. Money it to be enjoyed, not worried over. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 10:05 am: | |
Plus, the speedometers of all Ferraris are so easy to disconnect that you may pay a premium for what you think is a low mileage garage queen and it is really a high mileage driver that has been detailed, touched up, had its leather redyed and otherwise made to look like new. |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 128
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 10:06 am: | |
To the uninformed never-owned-one-before buyer, a garage queen may bring a useful premium in price.
However, to those of use who enjoy driving these works of art, and are fully informed about the cost structure of ownership (depreciation, maintanence, resale); these garage queens might eat a discount just to be sold (due to the required maintanance just to get them back into form (seals,...))
I bought a medium milage F355 one year ago (plus 7 days). When I bought it I went from a Corvette Grand Sport that I had only put 18,000 miles on in the 5 years of ownership. I really babied that car,....(yada). I though I would put 4,000-6,000 miles per year on the F355. It looks like I am going to be putting more like 8,000-9,000 along with 10 track events per year. And I don't even drive it daily! I just love this car, I don't care what it cost to maintain, and/or restore to perfection--its worth it!!!
In the future, I will be looking for medium to higher milage F-cars with service records, and will have them looked over by reputable F-car mechanics before buying. I might even consider paying a premium for higher milage over garage queens, just beacuse a car that is used regularly decomposes at a slower rate than one that sits in a garage--just ask the antique car museums, they like to give the cars a run at least once a week. |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 419
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 8:44 am: | |
hear hear, frank.
plus, even with miles on them, f-cars tend to depreciate at much more owner-beneficial rates than most other cars simply due to the rarity.
if the $5K or $10K difference on a six figure car really matters to you, you might be stretching too far.
doody. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 8:15 am: | |
Henryk and Dave, if you are that worried about losing money on a car then I suspect you can't afford the car. All but a rare few Ferraris are production cars and depreciate whether you drive them or not. The little extra depreciation for mileage is the cost of the enjoyment of driving them. Mayby you would be better off renting a Ferrari on the rare occasion you are able to drive one. That way you would get the best of both worlds. The only reason I have owned five Ferraris is to drive them. If I just wanted to look I would have bought photographs or models. |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 192
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 5:05 am: | |
It aint just the delta in 'resale values' at 5K v 30K miles, its the additional bucks that will have been outlayed on maintenance put into the 30K miler.
I'll pay the premium and take the low miler thanks and risk suffering the 'potential' of the odd seal failures and electrical gremlins, its small potatoes compared to 'definite' changeout items associated with high mileages!
In my case, with work travel commitments (the very thing that allows me to own an F car in the first place) I only get occasional chances to drive the car, which works out to be annually about the max I would want to put on the car in any case. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 211
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 11:05 pm: | |
Frank: Respectfully, I disagree with you. A 5K miles garage queen will sell for a lot more than one with 30K miles.
First; You will pay a premium for the garage queen, because of it's low miles.
Second; If you buy the 30K car, and put 10K miles on it, you will now have a very high mileage car!!!!!!
The value you place "on the enjoyment of driving it" is directly related to the money you are willing to loose. If one can afford that loss, then, do it.......but I really don't believe that most of us are in that position.
If that where true, then, you wouldn't see so many low mileage older Feraris advertised for sale....WHAT other logical reason would there be for NOT driving them, if it wasn't the mileage?????
If you could afford it......DO IT......but most can't!!!!!!! |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 210
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 10:02 pm: | |
Gene: You have confirmed my point...."you will loose your shirt"!!!!!!
You buy high mileage cars, with proper service, etc. (of course), only because it has depreciated down to it's lowest value.....SOMEONE has already paid for that big-time. And any additional mileage would mean minimal further loss!
I certainly don't blame you......financially, you are correct. But, it does prove my point.....that someone lost BIG.
How can one ignore the mileage issue?......I have YET to see a Ferrari for sale that doesn't advertise the mileage.....those few that don't obviously have high mileage.....now, if one can STEAL it, then that is great.
I have stated once before, and truly believe it.......that MILEAGE is EVERYTHING when it comes to pricing a Ferrari.......NOTHING else counts!!!!!!!!
Most owners DON'T have the money to ignore this VERY important issue.
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Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
New member
Username: Gagatep
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 2:05 pm: | |
go ahead and drive it
just maintain it and document
the enjoyment and appreciation you
get from driving it outweights
the loss value when you sell at a lower
price.... there are people like
me who will pick-up a high mileage F
with good maintenance at the right price. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 9:09 am: | |
Whether or not you will "lose your shirt" because you drive your car depends on what value you place on the enjoyment of driving it. If you look at the difference in value between a garage queen with 5,000 miles and a driver with 30,000 miles it is insignificate when you consider that the owner of the driver got 25,000 mile more of enjoyment out of the car. How much is more smiles per mile worth to you ? |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 185
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 5:54 pm: | |
oh the insecurities of the higher mileage men! Use it, enjoy it, take the losses, it was clearly all worth it....stop moaning, each to his/her own. I LOVE driving mine but I also kind of like mine just sat there mega clean, unmarked in the garage with the trickle charger on too.
I'm a great believer in the feeling not being so great if used as a daily driver.
I'm sure there are many things that we are all guilty of that would have pissed Enzo off, but like someone hinted, it ain't him taking the hit at resale time is it! |
David Lewis (Davidlewis)
New member
Username: Davidlewis
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 3:49 pm: | |
I am not a rich man so my commitment to buy and maintain an F car was and continues to be "challenging". Contrary to financial concern for hi miles, I cannot afford to let such a significant purchase sit there unused. But this really is NOT the point. Angelo said it best ->> "I can't stop driving this machine". After 10 years w/ the 308, the love affair still burns!
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Mike (Dollartaker)
Junior Member
Username: Dollartaker
Post Number: 65
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 11:28 am: | |
For those of you owning a Ferrari as an investment only, don't they depreciate each year? How can you have such a fine automobile in the stable and not drive it? |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 408
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 7:06 am: | |
"custodian" - stellar! hear hear!
that means that taking care of her is paramount. and sitting in a dark dusty room sure ain't "taking care of her"!
doody. |
Eamon A Blaney (Eamon)
New member
Username: Eamon
Post Number: 26
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 6:29 am: | |
Whats the problem with high milage ? Is it because the motorcar might require expensive servicing and the replacement of parts ? By the time any Ferrari, particulary 308/328Mondial's, reach big milages the chances are that every major componant whil have had to be changed already. And thats as part of the 'normal' ferrari servicing !!!!!!!
Lets see now, at 60K miles the motorcar will have had new distrutor caps, rotor arms, ignition coils, plug leads, water pump, clutch, belt tensioners, brake discs, rebuilt LSD, various switchs, wheel bearings, oil radiator etc. etc. In fact it will probably in better condition than a low milage motorcar that doesn't get used often.
My Mondial Cab RHD used to cover on average 2K p.a. before I bought it in May this year and in the first few months I had a lot of problems, all of which I have now resolved myself. She now runs like a Honey and and no more hassle than any daily driver but a helluva lot more fun.
Besides I consider myself a custodian of the Mondial and not an owner. Every petrol head has a little 'ownership' of every Ferrari, even if it is just passing in the street. We are family ! |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 406
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 6:14 am: | |
it's just a car. drive it. enjoy it.
if you bought it for investment purposes you made your error a priori. if your ferrari represents a meaningful part of your asset base whose value must be perserved, you made a mistake a priori.
there seem to be two types of f-car owners: drivers who enjoy their cars and guys who like to own one, but consider it more of a financial transaction than a driving transaction.
don't sweat it. ENJOY!
doody. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 197
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 12:19 am: | |
Enzo may be ticked off.......but YOU will be the one paying the price!!!!!!!!!!!! Just wait until it comes time to sell!!!!!! |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 196
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 12:11 am: | |
You may drive until the "wheels fall off", but, when it comes time to sell, of trade it in, you WILL loose your shirt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Matthew Lemus (Mlemus)
New member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 20
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 11:12 pm: | |
Drive until the wheels fall off. |
Angelo H. Oliva (Blicima_355)
New member
Username: Blicima_355
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 10:56 pm: | |
I could never understand why some ferrari owners are hesitatant to put mileage on these machines. It amazes me when I bring my car in for service and find another car that is 2-3 years older than mine with 2-3 thousand miles on the engine. WHY??? This would have pissed off Enzo... I have a 1997 355B with 31,000ish miles on it. I can't stop driving this machine. Is this considered to be high mileage for a high performance car? Should I consider backing off on the "Sunday Drives". What are your thoughts???
AHO |
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