| Author | Message | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 131 Registered: 4-2002 |
OK, I'm going out on a limb here, but this is my understanding of the early Corvette fiberglass situation. The '63 to '67 cars would almost universally crack around the front clip in the area of the hood corners. Some '68 and '69 cars (different body style) share the same fate. I *was told* that these cars all used 'polyester' as the base resin. Around 1970, they *supposedly* changed to an epoxy resin, and cracks quit happening. I'm not going to guaranty the accuracy of the above, but that is what I was told. As to F-car relavency, well, I don't have a clue as to what resins Ferrari used. My ancient 'Dino'saur seems to have 'glass parts in reasonable condition. | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
New member Username: Miked Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2001 |
Exposed polyester resin can break down over time due to the ultra violet rays in sunlight. Gelcoat usually protects the resin pretty well, witness the millons of FG boats out there. Paint works well too. ISO, Vinylester, epoxy resins offer improvements in this area. There were thousands of E-type bonnet (front half of the car) FG replicas sold in the 60�s and 70�s as a relatively cheap way to repair wrecked cars. Most were poorly made. From looking at the FG parts in my 308 GT4 I'd say that they are pretty well made basic polyester/glass moldings. The problem with glass strands coming to the surface of exterior body panels usually starts with how the part was made. There needs to be a barrier between the mold and the glass reinforcement so that it is not exposed at the outer surface of the finished product. A resin rich layer or gelcoat will do just that. Even if the part is made correctly, as were the glass GTBs, at some time the resin rich layer may be sanded away during a re-paint or body repair exposing the glass strands. Once exposed they are almost impossible to work with without recovering them and they do wick water rather well. It is the same as sanding drywall and scuffing the paper enough to raise that pesky paper lint, you can never get rid of them. Kevlar is far worse than glass to deal with in the same situation, don�t ask me how I know. I recently removed the interior of my car and found a lot of FG parts. Besides the fender liners, front valance and floorpan, I found that the interior door and side panels, the entire rear seat, much of the trim panels on the A & B pillars and around the headliner as well as the dashboard are FG moldings covered with leather or vinyl glued over a thin foam backing. For low volume auto manufacturing it is a very good application. Sometime in the future I would like to make FG bumpers for my car for both aesthetics and weight savings. Unlike the 308 GTB/S, the GT4�s front and rear sheet metal is different between the Euro and US cars so a Euro retrofit won�t work. I�d like to make them much closer to the body and shaped to fill the big cut-outs in the fenders (crash bumper retraction space currently covered by big ugly rubber pads). A foam filling would strenghen them enough for slight tap protection. Those of us that are greybeards will remember the Lotus Elan (60�s version) had foam filled FG bumpers. If they got crunched you just patched them up. A high school friend�s father bought one new and was promptly issued a ticket by the local cop for driving a car with out a front bumper, if it wasn�t chrome & steel it wasn�t a bumper! | ||
| Joel Ames (James)
New member Username: James Post Number: 50 Registered: 4-2001 |
Verrel a nice 66 e-type roadster was sold at one of the major auctions a couple of weeks ago for $ 87.500. It was in the auction section in auto week. Your 150's would be worth $$$$$. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 287 Registered: 5-2001 |
re: XK-150s (NFC, not technical either - apologies...) --------------------------------------------------------------- Mike, I sometime wish I'd kept my 2 XK-150s also. My 1st sports car was a '58 XK-150 fixed head coupe. Bought it while I was in college in '67 for $750. Rebuilt the engine myself (with the help of my room mate & a friendly sports car shop in Dallas.)Had it repainted for about $1K. Then foolishly turned down $3500 for it. When I graduated in Dec '69 I bought a '58 XK-150 convertable that had had a frame-off restoration by a friend. Was hired by Digital in Maynard, MA 2 weeks later. You should have seen the look on the personnel rep's face when I asked him to relocate 2 Jag s from TX along with about a dorm room's worth of misc. belongings. Disposed of them along the way... Today that convertable would bring almost enough for a TR 512, or a 412 + lots of parts & tools today(sigh). | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2002 |
Wills covers some of the problems in his book...biggest problem years ago was the fibre strands comming to the surface...from the resins shrinking or the strands absorbing water...I have seen on a yellow 76 GTB where you could see the strands through the paint on the bonnet. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 117 Registered: 4-2002 |
Being a former Corvette guy, but *most definitely* not a 'glass expert, I know that there is a difference in the resins used. Modern stuff is probably no problem, but ask anyone with an early '60s Corvette. If it hasn't been repaired/replaced it's cracked!! Newer models, from early/mid '70s, don't have this problem. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 256 Registered: 4-2002 |
If the fiberglass breaks down with age, were screwed anyhow. All 308's have the entire center tub section comprising the cockpit made from fiberglass and bonded to the chassis. If it were to fall apart, I believe the car would be almost impossible to fix. I think if this were a serious fiberglass problem the Corvette community would have been very loud about it for a very long time now. Im not gonna lose any sleep ! | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 396 Registered: 12-2001 |
If fibreglass resin breaks down over time like on that jag, Im sure glad I didnt buy a fibreglass 308. | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 78 Registered: 7-2002 |
I'd also recommend John Wills' book Glass Fiber Auto body construction Simplified....great resource for fibreglass work...heck...while your at it just make up the whole car...it's not that difficult. | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
New member Username: Miked Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2001 |
Joel, it sounds as if we think alike. Good luck on your project. I see in your profile that you have an E-type. I had a '57 XK-140 DHC and a '55 roadster, one of the first 140's built. I wish I still had them today. | ||
| Joel Ames (James)
New member Username: James Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2001 |
Mike, In my life of 50 yrs I have never paid any one to do my electrical, plumbing, mechanical, service my X wife ( how ever sombody was), or anything else. Thanks for your info. I'll do it myself. Your thoughts are so real. When one of my cars has a problem I just go look in the mechanic bays at the nearest pep boys store and say to myself, If that guy picking his nose over there is going to work on my car I just think I'll do it myself. Thank you so much for your thoughts. Joel | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
New member Username: Miked Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2001 |
Joel, I agree with Verell, they are easy to make. Then again I have 30 years of composites experience. Before you spend BIG $$$ to replace the fenderliners try your hand at fiberglass work. Most fiberglass products are made by people who worked at McDonalds last week which shows how easy it is with a little practice. You can purchase a qt. of resin and a package of fiberglass cloth or mat at any marine, auto parts store or even WalMart. Find a plasic tub like butter or other foodstuff comes in to use as a practice mold. Research the internet or library for basic "how to fiberglass 101". Here is an example of the general composites' terminalogy. http://www.fibreglast.com/gettingstarted.php?session=a546f740b240c26a728c924d79918ab2 Mix a small batch of resin and use it to wet out some fiberglass material in the bottom of the tub. After it cures just flex the tub to "pop" the finished product out, it won't stick to that type of plastic. You'll be amazed at what you can build and how easy it is. Before long you will be making a new Kevlar body for your car! Rules of Fiberglassing: 1) Have everything ready before mixing in the catalst. 2) Wear disposable gloves, your fingers WILL become a sticky mess. 3) Don't touch anything or anyone with forementioned stick fingers. 4) Work quickly. Once you get comfortable with the material you can fix your old fenderliners fairly easily. If they are cracked or have small pieces missing you can grind out the bad spots and fill them in with new material. I built a couple of small parts in an afternoon recently just using particle board and a piece of PVC sewer pipe for a quick and dirty mold. Here are a few pictures.      Nice hoodscoop isn't it? | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 278 Registered: 5-2001 |
Joel, Since the wheel well liner dimensions & finish aren't super critical, why don't you try making new ones yourself. MAKE MOLDS FROM YOUR OLD PARTS: Spray your old ones with a release agent, then mold 2-3 layers of Fibreglass onto the inside of them and let it extend an inch or so beyond the edges. Once you've separated the mold from your old wells, spray the mold with release agent, lay 3-4 layers of fibreglass mat (I think F* used non-woven mat) on the molds. Once it's cured, drill the mounting holes & spray it w/SEM trim black paint. For details get a couple of books on using Fibreglass from the library or bookstore. Almost any local Corvette, Avanti, or boat repair shop should be able to do it for you. | ||
| Joel Ames (James)
New member Username: James Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2001 |
Verell, Brittle and limp, are you trying to describe me? Thoes two words describe my wheel wells to a tee. I guess nobody has ever bought them so I believe I'll take your advice and patch. Thanks for your help. Joel | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 277 Registered: 5-2001 |
Joel has a point, epoxy resin breaks down over time. I recently read about the only fiberglass bodied Jag E-type ever built being re-bodied in Au because the fibreglass had broken down beyond restorability. The re-bodied car was up for sale with the fibreglass body thrown in as a companion piece to preserve authenticity. Don't have any data as to how 1980 resins compare to 1960s resins. I'd guess it's a lot more stable. My 308 QV's wheel wells are still quite strong. I'd say that as long as they're holding up in general, just repair any cracks as they appear. If they've become brittle and/or limp in places with lots of layer delamination then it's time to think about replacing them. Just my $0.02 | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 248 Registered: 4-2002 |
They are just fiberglass. Restoring them to as new condition would be a pretty simple project that anyone could do. You will need some sanding tools and a compressor would be a big help... but I certainly would not pay real money for replacements. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 252 Registered: 4-2001 |
It would be great if we could get a batch of carbon fiber ones made at a low cost. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3079 Registered: 2-2001 |
Joel, Check with Italian Design and Racing. Butch Hooper. He parts out cars at times. He may have it. Worth a try. 480-968-0421 | ||
| Joel Ames (James)
New member Username: James Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2001 |
Mine are over 20 yrs old and show it. Just want them replaced. Thanks | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 383 Registered: 12-2001 |
Are yours cracked or missing? When I had my car appraised by a ferrar specialist, one of the checks was to verify wheel well presence and condition. Is their a common problem with these I dont know about? | ||
| Joel Ames (James)
New member Username: James Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2001 |
Anybody ever bought new wheel wells for their cars. Where and (this is scary) How much. Thanks. |