| Author | Message | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 147 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dave: Ooops. Yeah, forgot that letter said to exchange them, not throw them out. I use Baldwin, so I wasn't involved. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Junior Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 186 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hans, the bad UFI's were in a very limited production period(about one year, check archives for dates), not all of them are bad. Don't throw them away! The dealer will exchange them if they have the horsy on them...The problem was BOTH the d-ring and a design change in the mounting plate groove that supports the d-ring. They subsequently changed both. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 145 Registered: 4-2002 |
Uh, Peter B.: There was a *VERY* well publicized batch of UFI's that were defective, hence throwing them away. Ferrari even sent out a letter to owners to that effect. Had nothing to do with the shape of O-ring, etc. Just plain bad engineering/manufacture for a particular batch. If you have one of the affected filters, THROW IT OUT!!! Official FNA recommendation. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 419 Registered: 12-2001 |
I agree on the 2 stroke example but they have needle bearings not babbit. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1873 Registered: 2-2001 |
There is an old race car in the Henry Ford Museum that carries the 666 number that actually has no oil pan and no crankcase. The crankshaft is EXPOSED. A mechanic rode along and occasionally they stopped and oiled the bearings with a squirt can. I do not believe we need pre oilers on our cars. If you think about it, most 2 cycle engines do not have a crankcase with a pressurized oiling system but rely on the mist of oil mixed with the gasoline for it's lubrication. These engines undergo some extremely heavy loading with DILUTED oil. | ||
| Peter B. (Gts308qv)
Junior Member Username: Gts308qv Post Number: 228 Registered: 5-2001 |
There is no such thing as a UFI filter you throw out!While they used the soft "D" ring seal, it was important being a little more careful when tightening down the filter. The problems occured mainly when the filters were overtightened and the soft "D" ring seal would bind and distort leading to the seal blowing out under pressure and all your new oil ending up everywhere except in the sump! Not a pleasant sight. Never had problems myself and have about 5 of the old UFI filters left and I will use every one of them. Just a matter of putting a little grease/oil on the mating surfaces and tightening down carefully by hand. I did use a Fram once and found they did not hold the oil in the filter for more than a couple of hours. The UFI seems to hang in there for a couple of days. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 128 Registered: 4-2002 |
I was hoping we were special. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1986 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hans, the reason I got from A-G why they always have them is because it's also used on an Ingersol-Rand portable compressor/generator!!! But yes, they do fit Ford F-250's as well... | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 118 Registered: 4-2002 |
James: Good point about "only qualifier is the absence of load". I probably didn't emphasize that enough. My car club buddies that drained the oil and bet how long it would last were running the engine with no load. Engine w/o oil pressure under racing conditions: all bets are off!! | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 94 Registered: 6-2002 |
Please refer to Hans' comments earlier in this thread. Hans, I agree with you. A multi-molecular layer of oil will remain on metal for years. When starting a cold engine, there is sufficient oil between load bearing surfaces to protect them for minutes. A warm engine is a "no brainer." The only qualifier is the absence of load. For those who have dismantled engines several weeks after their last gasp, did you find oil on the crank or cam or gears? I suspect that you did. That said, Ferrari did attempt to minimize this issue by specifying a filter that has a center tube (Fram PH 2804-1). This prevents oil from emptying out of the filter, thereby avoiding the filling time. Jim S. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'm not positive, but I believe the B253 is for older Ford V8 pickups. I was surprised that a local filter store had a whole shelf of "Ferrari" Baldwin filters, until I was told that. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1982 Registered: 12-2000 |
Paul, try Acklands-Grainger (industrial supplies) for the Baldwins. The store out here ALWAYS has a B253 on the shelf... For under $15 Cdn  | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 392 Registered: 12-2001 |
I called the ferrari dealer in my area and they said they use the ferrari filters unless they are out of stock and will us a fram only in an emergency. They told me $49.00 for the proper ferrari one for my 308. I dont know where to get a baldwin or UFI filter in canada. I may go with the dealer one. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1008 Registered: 1-2001 |
Peter -- It's not the highest priority thing on my list, but I was hoping to ask Dan Schulte (the Baldwin Eng. who graciously provided the B253 drawings) if I could send him a TR oil filter to see if they had something near equivalent. Since I'm only planning on keeping my TR for a couple/few more years I probably wouldn't do anything more involved, and I'll just live with the UFI if Dan has no other option. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1981 Registered: 12-2000 |
Steve, have you thought of machining a take-off plate to fit the filter mount and routing oil lines to a remote filter(s) (one that would use the Baldwins)? Here's the website for those Accusumps (manufactured by Canton Mecca): http://www.accusump.com/ | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1005 Registered: 1-2001 |
Dave H. -- Glad to hear that UFI improved it's seal-ring/groove design on the small filter, I haven't seen one yet. I hope they do the same thing on the oddball TR filter (I kind of wish the TRs still used the 2 small filter set-up so I'd have other options). | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 224 Registered: 4-2002 |
Some racers use Accusump. It is a pressurized system that forces oil through the system as soon as you turn the ignition key. You wait until it exhausts it oil (2 quarts or so) then start the engine. The thing is actually sold to prevent oil starvation during hard cornering in wet sump engines. | ||
| Ian Parnwell (Ianp)
New member Username: Ianp Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hello all I am intersted in the talk of low oil press. on start up as my 400i does exactly the same thing. I used to work for a company who restored 2nd WW aircraft,and we used to fit a pre-oil pump to the RR Merlins & Griffons to stop the cams and cam fingers wearing prematurely, it worked really well so I dont see any reason not to develop the same thing for my/our cars. when I got the car it had crossland filters and I didnt have a problem the fram ones did the same as everyone elses but the UFI seerm to hold the oil for longer. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 253 Registered: 5-2001 |
What was the # of the UFI filter that we should toss out? There was a thread a short while back that mentioned a manufacture defect. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 221 Registered: 4-2002 |
I have never had a Fram hold its oil. One upside down filter that holds its oil (on my cars) is the Mahle I use on another vehicle. There is also one other filter whose name I cannot recall that always holds it oil as well. Ah, I know, it is a Hangst, Hecht (sp?- begins with an H). | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 220 Registered: 4-2002 |
Would not put molybdenum derivative in my crankcase. If it gets too hot, it forms harmful compounds. Believe they were talking about molybdenum disulfide as the additive. It is a friction reducer that can create phosphoric acid if it gets too hot. Phosphoric acid is a bad actor. Perhaps, I should have stipulated German premium cars. Play with snake oil, get bitten by the snake. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 387 Registered: 12-2001 |
What filters do the ferrari dealers use? Im sure they cost $1000 no matter what brand though. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Junior Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 168 Registered: 5-2001 |
Steve, though I now use Baldwins, I have used the new UFI as well, and UFI HAS eliminated the "D-ring" seal and uses a standard type rubber seal, just like the Baldwin, or any other oil filter. | ||
| Dan Tosi (Dan308)
New member Username: Dan308 Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2002 |
We are having the same thread on Ferrari forum, seems the Frams (and others) are leaking down in a matter of hours. The parts Mangr. at the ferrari store is contacting Fram to see what they have to say on the issue. I was told most all of them leak down after 24 hours or so. Dan | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 104 Registered: 4-2002 |
Uh, Lawrence, not true. My Ferrari owners manual specifically calls for a Moly additive for the engine oil. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 218 Registered: 4-2002 |
Try it in your lawnmower first.... Why is it that premium car manufacturers only recommend motor oil in their crankcases? Do you think they know something? Oil additives are snake oil. Water Wetter works. Put it in your coolant reservoir. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 250 Registered: 4-2002 |
I was at Road Atlanta one day when the Slick 50 crew were doing a demo. They had a 350 V8 running on a test stand. The oil pan was removed from the car, you would watch the crank rotate ect. Of coarse there was no oil in it. It was hooked up to a stock radiator with an electric fan. They ran it all day, at times revving it to over 5K and other times leaving it at 3-4K for extended periods. It never siezed or appeared to run hot. Of coarse this engine was just running on a test stand under minimal load. It was a pretty impressive demo though. I dont run Slick 50 in my 308 however... Hmmmmmmmmm come to think of it I dont know why not. | ||
| Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member Username: Rueschenberg Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2002 |
For what its worth, I have been using the "chemical equivalent" of a pre-luber in my cars during winter storage. Apparently this product combines with engine oil to form a somewhat more resilient surface film, that provides additional wear protection at the time of startup. I have been using it for 3 years now. It's called No-Rosion Lube System Passivator, info at: www.No-Rosion.com | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 100 Registered: 4-2002 |
Everyone seems to freak out over a pressure delay on startup. Unless Ferrari engines are drastically different from other engines, you shouldn't worry. I have seen speedy-lube type places that forgot to fill the crankcase after draining and replacing the filter. Owner drives anywhere from 10 to 30 miles (OK, these owners must be morons, because the idiot light should be on) before anything happens. Fill crankcase, drive to nearest dealer. (Which in the case of Chevrolet, is me.) Take pan off, inspect. Minimal or no damage. Also, you may remember TV ads for some oil company that would drain the crankcase of running engines to prove how good their oil is. Engine runs for a long time. A friend belonged to a car club, that for entertainment at their picnics, would fire up a total junker car with no oil in it. Crank the revs up a bit, and sell raffle tickets on how long before the engine seizes/blows. Usually 1/2 hour or more. The danger of no/low oil pressure is only in a) extended running, b) high stress running (e.g. full throttle or high rpm), or c) high heat. A few seconds idling should have virtually no effect. Modern oils will coat the parts sufficiently for several seconds of little or no metal-to-metal wear. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 999 Registered: 1-2001 |
I don't want to imply that every Fram is bad (nor every Baldwin or UFI is perfect), but for quality/design reasons (at about the same price) I think the Baldwin is a better value than the Fram, and for price reasons (if not some design reasons -- i.e., the quad-ring seal and groove on the Baldwin sure seems more rugged to me than the squishy D-ring seal and shallow groove on the UFI), the Baldwin is also a better value than a UFI. JMOs. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 385 Registered: 12-2001 |
Thats just great Steve. I guess Ill be tossing the fram. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 998 Registered: 1-2001 |
Paul -- The important "check valve" is in the oil filter itself (the anti-drain back valve). I took more than 1 "empty" Fram PH2804-1 off my ex-308. Here's a photo from Alan Ing (IIRC) showing a poorly closing ADV on the Fram:  To be fair, the Baldwin and UFI ADVs are not significantly different (just simple rubber flaps), but so many "empty" Frams prompted me to try the Baldwin B253. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 382 Registered: 12-2001 |
Just wondered if anyone is using a preoiler on their car? I find a 3-4 second delay in oil pressure on cold starts. I have a fram oil filter that is specific for being inverted. I believe the reason for running the engine, shutting it down and checking the oil level is because the oil cooler drains back to the pan causing a high reading. If this is the case, you will always have a dry start regardless of oil filters used. I think the delay in pressure is the cooler filling back up which brings the oil level to the proper reading hence the special procedure for checking it. Maybe a check valve should be installed in the cooler to prevent drain back. Perhaps a pre oiler is the answer? |