| Author | Message | ||
| Stewart Chung (Navygakman)
Junior Member Username: Navygakman Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2002 |
This thread was extremely helpful to me when I had to fix my slow windows on my 308. So I thought to contribute my little bit to it. This has to do with putting everything back together with AFTER you regrease the winch per Ed and Verell's post below. 1. Keeping tension on the spool - I am not sure if this is absolutely necessary to keep the cable wind up nicely while you install the motor back on the door, but should you want to do that, you can use a couple of paper clamps like in this picture. That keeps enough pressure on the cable to keep it wind while you put it back behind the door. Then you run the cable through the pulleys BEFORE you reach behind and remove the clamps. Also, note that I put a sticker to mark where the cables come out of the housing in relation to the 3 screws. They have to come out the right places.  2. Tension of cable - For reasons unknown, I found that the cable tension changes with the window positions (up or down). There is a pulley you can adjust to take up the slack. But if you tighten it too much, your window will stop due to too much resistence. Too loose and the cable may come off the pulley(s). So I put in a little spring to give it a "spring tension". It seems to work. First picture is in its relaxed position:  Second picture is when the tension is high:  See how much the spring stretched? Hope this helps somebody.... | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 282 Registered: 5-2001 |
FERRARI 308 POWER WINDOW SERVICE PROCEDURE(LONG) ----------------------------------------------- Sorry, I thought this was in the archives. It isn't! I then looked for it in all the usuall places (Ferrari FAQ, Ferrari 308 FAQ, Expensive Car, FerrariList archives, & the 308 GTB Register's Technicl Tips. It wasn't there either!!! I finally found it in my personal FerrariList archives where someone had sent it to me shortly after I got my 308. Ferrari 308 Power Window Service Procedure ------------------------------------------ CAVEAT/APOLOGIES: 30-AUG-2002 Revised by [email protected]. I've re-formatted this some. and added some additional comments/suggestions. I've prefixed most of my comments with 'VB>'. I apologise in advance for any errors as they are most likely mine and not Ed's. I'm greatly appreciative of Ed's taking the time to write this down for all of us 308 owners. - Verell From: Ed Schreyer <[email protected]> Subject: [Ferrari] Slow Power Window Fix (LONG) To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]> Symptom: Power windows on 308s moving sluggishly, getting stuck in mid operation, etc. Gets worse as the temperature drops. Causes: 1)OEM lubricant in the worm gear/spool drive mechanism hardens over time to consistency of cosmolene/semi-cured epoxy, causing dramatic increase in friction for drive motor to overcome. 2)Secondary cause is suspected voltage drop through Ferrari electrical harness, causing drive motor to develop less than rated power VB> Not addressed by this procedure. Service Overview: Remove power window drive mechanism, clean out hardened stuff, relubricate and reinstall. Supplies needed: solvent(Citrus Solvent, Parts Cleaner, or Mineral Spirits Paint Thinner), Silicon spray, White lithium grease, Wide (1-1/2" or 2") masking tape, 10mm combination wrench, 8mm wrench or socket. toothbrush/small stiff bristled brush, small brass bristled brush(toothbrush shaped), very small screwdriver/dental pick, large (#2) and small(#1) phillips screwdriver, large standard screwdriver, "stubby" short standard screwdriver (or equivalent), good worklight. slim-head small crescent wrench. VB>I didn't need the following, you'll see why. One metric hex-key (sorry, don't remember size off hand - you'll need it for 2 bolts at the top front of the door - open the door and look at the top front of it - you'll see two bolts about 2" apart; one above the other the hex key fits them.) Service Procedure: ------------------ 0. If serviceing driver's side, Carefully remove the electric mirror switch/cable from the arm rest. The mirror switch can be easily removed by prying the forward end of the switch out of the armrest, then carefully sliding the assembly out and to the front. Carefully disconnect the edge connector at the aft end of the assembly. VB>The edge connector breaks off real easily, luckily it happened to the defective switch I was replacing. 1. Remove arm rest: - 2 phillips head screws under the aft portion, - 1 10mm acorn nut in the middle of the armrest - 1 10mm nut in front of the door latch. VB>Caution, the back of the arm rest has staples in it that will scratch your leather door panel. Also, if you leave a philips screw in the handle, it will make a really deep gouge. To protect your door panel, have a cloth ready to slide behind the handle as soon as you've got the philips screws out. You'll have to tilt/wiggle the arm rest slightly to work it off of the door latch. This is when the risk of scratching the leather is greatest. 2. Remove door panel: - 2 small phillips head screws holding leather covered trim piece under door latch mechanism. - 3 small black phillips head screws buried in the carpet: lower front and top back of speaker grill area, and in the bottom edge of panel about mid-door. - 2 phillips head screws w/ countersunk-type washer on back edge of door panel top and bottom. - Remove door lock button (screws on). - Panel should be free if not, you've missed a screw. - carefully pull bottom edge away from door and lift up and slightly outwards to free top edge from window channel. NOTE: Now is a good time to clean/treat the leather on the panel. 3. Remove speaker - some # of screws holding the speaker, Unclip 2 or 4 leads to speaker unless the wires are long enough to get the speaker well out of the way. 4. Remove fully/partially dust/water cover (plastic sheet) to get to inside of door. VB> At this point my procedure varies from the original. Mine saves a lot of usually unnecessary disassembly/re-assembly & re-alignment of the window. I've posted both varients as 5A & 5B as below. 5A. Fasten window in up position with two strips of masking tape on outside of window: A strip along & overlapping the front edge of the window and the black upright it slides in. A 2nd slip overlapping the bottom of the window and the top of the door. I didn't, but if you're a belt & suspenders person, you could add a 3rd strip inside the window along the front edge. The tape will hold the window in place until the cable is re-attached to it near the end of the service procedure. ----------------------------------------- VB>Ed's original procedure (aka 5B) is: 5B. Remove Window & tracks: a. Remove rear window track (window will have to be at least partially up to do this - full up worked ok for me). - One standard-head machine screw (bolt) at top/rear of door (back of exterior door latch assembly). - One bolt at bottom of track - 10mm nut on standard-head bolt with washer/lockwasher. - Remove track by carefully pulling up and out the top. b. Remove window - loosen 10mm bolts pinching cable at rear and at front of window lower edge (this is where the thin small crescent wrench comes in handy - fits between the spacer and the flat edge of the pinching surface). You may need to move the window up/down to get access to the front cable attach point. I marked the cable for the first window and subsequently found it wasn't really necessary. c. Remove window front track - one bolt at bottom, one at top rear of track - 2 bolts you'll need a hex key for at the top front edge of the door. VB> End of 5B - Ed's original procedure ----------------------------------------- 6. Make a sketch of the cable routing - it goes from the upper part of the drive spool to the top front pulley, bottom front pulley, rear top pulley, rear bottom pulley, tensioner pulley and back to the bottom part of the drive spool. VB>Note how the cable goes into/out of the drive mechanism on each side of a post and which pulleys these two cable sections are routed to/from. It's not clear in the manual, and probably harder to remember if you don't have a manual & don't draw them now. If you can see in well enough, note which side of the spool in the mechanism the cable goes to(I can't remember if you can see this-Verell). VB> There's a pretty good cable routing drawing in the 308 GTV/GTS parts manual. 7. Remove the cable from the window & pulleys: (It will still be attached to the drive mechanism) - loosen 10mm bolts pinching cable at front and rear of the window's lower edge (this is where the thin small crescent wrench comes in handy. It fits between the spacer and the flat edge of the pinching surface). You may have to put a 2nd wrench on the nut on the other end of the bolt. VB> If you did Ed's procedure in step 5B. you've already done this. - Loosen tensioner pulley (you'll need the shorty standard screwdriver to keep the thing from turning as you try to loosen the 10mm nut (I didn't have a shorty screwdriver and found that a thin washer clamped in a vise grips worked ok as a short screwdriver). - When tensioner pulley is loose, carefully free the cable from the pulley arrangement. 8. Disconnect electrical leads to motor (if you reverse them upon reassembly, the window moves opposite to the switch, no big deal to fix). VB> My leads were long enough that I was able to leave them connected.) 9. Remove motor assembly: 3 8mm nylock nuts/washers hold the motor assembly to the door. Motor comes out toward rear of door. VB> I took the assembly out thru the speaker hole, & then removed the motor from the gear drive. 10. Make sketch of cable supply/return to spool, noting the following: - How the cable straddles one of the cover attach posts and goes onto/off of the spool. - How many turns each side of the cable makes on the spool. VB> NOTE: Pull the cable tight while doing this. There are cable grooves on the spool, make sure it's lying in them & not across a groove when you count. (Yes, this is a PITA, but if you don't you'll end up installing the mechanism in the door, trying to tension the cable & taking the mechanism out again a couple of times to get it wrapped right. - Ask me how I know). - The position/orientation of the holes where the ends of the cable go into the spool relative to the mechanism's posts & worm gear. 11. Dis-assemble the mechanism on clean worksurface: - remove 3 standard screws holding drive mechanism cover on. - Carefully remove cover, exposing worm gear and spool - if lots of hardened lubricant is found, you've hit the problem. - Carefully remove the worm gear with bushing supports, & bushings. They pull out & away from the motor. VB> Note that the bushing supports are easy to overlook & loose(Don't Ask). They're small (~1/4" square, ~1/16" thick pieces of black metal, flat on one side & curved to fit the bushing on the other side. They're probably buried in the hardened goop and stuck in the housing or stuck to the bushings. -The spool and metal backing plate pull off the motor/base. VB> The cable stays attached to the spool. 12. Soak everything in solvent overnight, or at least several hours to soften the hardened goop. Be sure to test your solvent to verify it doesn't melt the plastic. The worm gear/bushings are metal, so solvent isn't a risk. VB> I used my citrus based parts cleaner: Elgene Solve All from: www.elgene.com) it's pre-diluted to a reasonable strength. Diluted citrus solvent seems to be safe for plastics. Finish Line citrus solvent (available in most bicycle shops as a concentrate for about $10. When diluted 2:1 or 3:1 it's essentially the same as solve all, but will strip paint when full strength. Mineral spirits are safe, and I'm pretty sure GUNK parts cleaner is safe, but test it to be sure. 13. Carefully clean off any hardened goop that the soaking didn't remove. - brushing with the small brass brush or toothbrush,scraping, picking & sparingly using solvent (don't melt the plastic). VB> I could have saved myself an hour of scrubbing if I'd had time to soak things overnite. However, the small brass brush frequently dipped in citrus solvent did clean all the stuff off. VB> When everything is clean, rinse the solvent off & thoroughly dry the pieces. Citrus solvent washes off with water. However, I've found that when it's full of dissolved grease, Fantastic or 409 rinses it off better than just plain water. 12. Re-lubricate the clean mechanism - I used white lithium grease; I'm sure there's something even better. VB> Stick with the white lithium grease. Don't use wheel bearing/cv joint grease.While it works, it's far too viscous. It's enough of a drag that it noticabely slows the mechanism.(DUH). 13. Here's the tricky part - rewind the cable back on the drive spool. If you get too many/too few turns on the spool, you will have the wrong length of cable to route around the pulleys. I found that by following the grooves on the spool and turning the cable to use all of them without overlapping worked fine. NOTE: IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DON'T GET THE CABLE WOUND ON THE SPOOL JUST AS IT CAME OFF, AS LONG AS THE SAME AMOUNT OF CABLE IS WOUND ON THE SPOOL. VB> & wound in the original direction(Don't Ask). 14. Replace the worm gear/bushings and cover.- the cable will try to jump off the spool and you might find it convenient to have a second pair of hands help keep some tension on the cable to prevent this. VB> I stuck a strip of masking tape around the spool to hold the cable in the grooves until I had everything together. Think I did this before I lubed things up which would prevent the tape from sticking. VB>Remember to orient the spool's cable hole in the same position and route the cable on each side of the cover mounting post per your drawings. When everything's together, you can remove the masking tape. It's ok if the cable becomes slack AFTER you've got everything together. 15. Reattach the motor to the drive mechanism. 16. Re-install the drive assembly in the door. 17. Re-string the cable around the pulleys and then reposition the tensioner pulley to provide what seems like the same tension the cable had before (not super critical). IMPORTANT: THE CABLE RUNNING FROM THE BOTTOM REAR OF THE DOOR, OVER THE TENSIONER AND BACK TO THE SPOOL MUST BE CLOSER TO THE INSIDE OF THE CAR THAN THE CABLE RUNNING FROM BOTTOM FRONT TO TOP REAR. (otherwise you'll find the window will go halfway down and get stuck on the other length of cable and you'll have to restring the cable. Bet you're wondering how I figured this out...) 15. Re-connect the motor leads and carefully operate the motor up and down. You should have full up/down travel and be able to determine the normal limit of the cable (not the point where it will not go any farther, but a couple of inches before this - look at the inner door panel - mine deflects a bit when you go to far). You may decide to tweak the tension a bit. Then, leave the cable at normal window travel upper limit. (If you did 5B (Ed's procedure), Leave the cable at it's normal window travel LOWER limit.) VB> The cable may bind up somewhere. If this happens, stop immediately. Check to see if it's slipped off of a pulley and is binding between the back of the pulley & the pulley mounting surface. If thisn't the problem, it may be binding because it has overlapped itself on the spool. If this happens, try running the motor all the way in the opposite direction. This will generally remove the overlap. Then when the motor is reversed, the cable will lay itself in the grooves in the spool. It may take a couple of repetitions to get things operating smoothly. Now would be a good time to use Silicon spray in the track as was suggested in the FCA article. -------------------------------------- VB>5A continuation, If you did 5B (Ed's procedure), skip to 16B below. 16A. Carefully attach the cable to the window with the front and rear clamps. (remember the cable should also be in the up position). 17A. Re-attach the cable to the bottom of the window using the front & rear clamps. Don't crush the cable, just make sure it can't slip. VB>If you did 5A, skip to step 20. -------------------------------------- VB> Only If you did 5B: NOTE: Leave cable at normal LOWER limit of travel if you did 5B. 16B. Reinstall front window and track. 17B. Reinstall window. 18B. Reinstall rear track - remember window goes into track. You may need to have a helper hold, or set some items in the door to block the window partially up to get access to the lower track bolt. Test proper position of rear track by allowing window to slide up and down - remember, the less effort it takes, the better chance the motor has of doing the job. 19B. Reattach cable to window using the clamps: - Reattach the rear clamp with the window in the full down position (remember the cable should also be in the full down position). - Carefully operate the motor and assist the window to a partially up position where you can access the forward clamp and reattach. -------------------------------------- 20. Carefully test run the window up and down until you are satisfied with the alignment. Remember to properly tighten the clamps and the tensioner pulley when things are the way you want. 20. Replace the inner liner, speaker, inner door panel and armrest. Congratulations - you've solved your window problem!! Total time to complete - probably about 4 hours, including 1 hour just cleaning the gunk off the mechanism. The second one may go faster. Hope this is helpful and not a waste of bandwidth. VB>Took me about 3 hours, would have been more like 2 hours on the job if I'd soaked the mechanism overnite. -Ed Schreyer '83 308 GTSi QV (now capable of going through the drive-through) Edward Schreyer (408) 436-4604 Vice President, Operations (408) 436-4699 fax One Touch Systems, Inc. [email protected] 40 Airport Parkway www.onetouch.com San Jose, CA, 95117 | ||
| Tim Hogan (Tojo)
Junior Member Username: Tojo Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2002 |
No need to apologise Eamon, I'm going to find this info very useful | ||
| Eamon A Blaney (Eamon)
New member Username: Eamon Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2002 |
My apoligies. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2002 |
Any details of the "Schreyer Window fix"? I tried the archives, but nothing specific to "Schreyer". Generic "Window Fix" searches give a bewildering number of matches - seems someone else has had this problem. <g> | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 210 Registered: 2-2002 |
While this is the same circuit I've used to solve this problem, be aware that it has one small negative side-effect. When this system is used, and no window operation is selected, the window motors see "ground-ground". This has the effect of "locking" a DC motor, making it virtually impossible to deploy (or raise) the window with the supplied manual lift tool. Not a huge negative, but something to be aware of. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 276 Registered: 5-2001 |
Eamon, Good try, pls check the archives 1st next time tho. This is Mike Tarrant's FerrariChat post from 4-AUG-2001: http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/606.html#POST11594 & his repost on 11-AUG-2001 which included a detailed HOW-TO procedure. http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/2175.html Guess it's making the rounds... Don't try this unless you do, or know know that your window lift mechanisms have had, Ed Schreyer's Slow Power Window Fix (cleaning/relube service) first. When the lubricant has turned to cosmoline, The high wiring resistance may be all that's keeping the motors from smoking themselves instead of just creeping & stalling. If the lift service hasn't been performed, the greaty reduced wiring resistance may be able to let enough current flow thru the severely mechanicly overloaded motors fry them fairly quickly. | ||
| Eamon A Blaney (Eamon)
New member Username: Eamon Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2002 |
Here is a fix for slow windows on 308/328/Mondial that was posted in another ferrari NG I finally go fed up with the slow lift on my Mondial QV windows so decided to track down the cause. As I suspected, the window lift switches introduce high resistance to the lift circuit and result in only 8 volts reaching the motors. As power is proportional to the square of the voltage, this means the poor motors operates at less than 1/2 power. No wonder they struggle. The solution is shown in the attached diagram, which requires the addition of 4 relays to the window lift circuit. Those interested can check if the solution will work by removing the door trim, disconnecting both wires to the lift motor (Push in connectors), and run jumper leads direct from the battery to the motor. Note the motor will go up with the polarity one way and down with the other. If this cures the slow lift them the relay scheme will work. If not, you have some mechanical drag. Anyone deciding to attempt this fix can contact me at [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> for additional detail.  |