| Author | Message | ||
| Simon Campbell (Simonc)
Junior Member Username: Simonc Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2002 |
Thanks for all the hard work Verell. I hope you really are enjoying doing this. Certainly fascinating to read about it as you progess. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 428 Registered: 5-2001 |
PROGRESS UPDATE: 3 FWD, 1 BACK... The mold I've been working with has had one too many rework iterations. It's sufficiently fragile that I need to set it aside & make a production quality mold from scratch. It's served it's purpose, and at this point actually produces a pretty good part. Just some surface blemishes from too much rework. I guess this really isn't a setback after all. Pressure casting works very well. I'll be using it to make the production bezels. When I make the production mold, I'll either cure the mold under pressure, or pull a vacuum on the mold material to eliminate all bubbles. I'm leaning toward the vacuum approach, but I now know enough to make either way work. I just received a brand NEW 308 choke lever ass'y still in the Ferrari stock bag that was on eBAY. I got it for less than $100!! There isn't a mark on the lever bezel!! The lever bezel's chrome plated surface has to be absolutely perfect. Every tiny flaw is highly visible. I'm planning on using the new lever bezel as the master part for making my production mold this weekend. The alternative was to make a final bezel from my experimental mold, touch it up and polish it. Experience has shown me it takes me most of a weekend to make a highly finished part from a slightly flawed one. After I'd made one, I would then spend another weekend using it to make the production mold. The new bezel saves me a weekend that I badly need to prep my 308 for storage during New England's salt season. For such a simple part, the lever bezel turned out to require me to do a fair amount of R&D work to develop some fairly serious mold making & casting technology/expertise!! I've also got a column switch coming. It should get here about the time I'm making my 1st production bezels. Pretty good timing!! Hmm, I think that makes 4 fwd steps! I'm considering taking vacation time from hp the week before Thanksgiving & working on Unobtanium. That's probably when I'll work with the switch. Making molds from the switch stalks will go a lot faster now that I've got the overall process technology worked out. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 419 Registered: 5-2001 |
PRESSURE CASTING MAY BE THE WAY TO GO I've been flat out with my 8 to 7 job & haven't had much progress to report. I've remade part of the molds & hope to make some test parts this weekend. I've also been experimenting with 'pressure casting' the material. It After I've poured the plastic in the mold I immediately put it into a a container, seal it & keep it under 40psi of air pressure until it's fully cured & ready to demold. Any tiny bubbles in the casting material are shrunk to negligable size by the pressure. When it's removed from the pressure vessel, the plastic is too rigid for them to expand. The result is a much denser piece that seems to not have the brittleness I was encountering earlier. It seems to be producing much stronger parts. Oh, yes, the pressure vessel is an old pressurized paint reservior. Just had to re-plumb it a bit for this application. Have to work very fast tho, as the pour starts to set up within less than a minuite! | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 417 Registered: 5-2001 |
LEVER BEZEL PROGRESS: 1 FWD, 3-4 BACK I thought I'd be able to send a sample test part out after this weekend. However, there were a few 'technical difficulties'... I attempted to trim the mold where the flat tab with the pivot hole joins the round bosses for the mounting screws. Intent was to replace the acute angle with a bevel that can handle the stress better. Also tried trimming the side of the tab area in the mold to thicken the tab slightly to strengthen it. BOTTOM IINE: TRIMMING A RTV MOLD IS GENERALLY NOT A GOOD IDEA! The RTV the mold is made with is just about impossible to rework with an X-acto knife, even when it's been honed razor sharp. The material is both tough & flexible that you can't make a smooth cut. It wiggles around on you & the result looks like you've been chopping at it with an axe. I finally gave up, cut out the whole tab area, & re-poured it. I Just separated the mold sections & it looks like I've recovered. POLISHING A TEST PART DID WORK: I did end up filling/sanding/polishing a test part. Then I re-poured the top 1/2 of the mold using it instead of the original. The polishing looks like it worked. The polished bezel area came out looking pretty good.With 1 exception: MURPHY STRIKES: Unfortunately, somehow I overlooked a couple of not very small flakes of unknown 'crud' that came from nowhere to lodge on the bezel's rim some time before the mold was re-poured. The mold's new top section reproduces them faithfully, There are a couple of very visable 'warts' right in the middle of a polished side(sigh). Also the new top section had some RTV 'flash' at the bezel's edges where the RTV had flowed under the bezel's edge. When I removed it, I managed to over-trim the edgs, resulting in the bezel gaining a small irregular skirt. I should have just lived with the flash as It didn't affect a visable area. I've got to get some more RTV before I can re-pour the top half of the mold to eliminate the unwanted 'skirts' & the warts the 'crud' left. All in all I've gained 'experience - which is what you have when things don't work out the way you intended... Stay Tuned.. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 412 Registered: 5-2001 |
LEVER BEZEL STATUS: I molded the 1st test lever bezel last night. It faithfully reproduced the repaired part, including the polished surface of the visible rim. When I applied the chrome foil, I had an exact reproduction of the repaired part. Unfortunately, as I expected, it was very exact. Every tiny scratch & ding was reproduced! The chrome foil is like paint. Every blemish in the original is made visable when it's applied. So I've got a newly made part showing ~20 years of wear! I've filled in the rim's surface, and have begun the process of sanding & polishing it. Then I'll use the touched-up reproduction to remake the top section of the mold. There's definitely an art to using the chrome foil. It's very fragile and wants to kink up in the rim's 4 corners. When it's applied to a polished surface & polished with a very fine auto polish, it does look like chrome! I'm encouraged so far. I think I'll call the mfg. & see what application tips they might have for dealing with the corners. Needless to say I'm having a lot of fun!! Terry, my address is coming your way. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 296 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ive had my head stuck in work for several weeks now. Biz is nuts right now, sorry for not having the part out yet. Verell, Im not sure I still have the email with your address. If you can fire it again, I will get the part out to you. I will definitely be working in the garage this weekend as I sold my 911S project and have to get it ready for shipping. | ||
| Simon Campbell (Simonc)
New member Username: Simonc Post Number: 48 Registered: 2-2002 |
Excellent. It's a bit like waiting for Christmas morning :-)))) | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 409 Registered: 5-2001 |
Subject: 400 LEVER BEZEL PROGRESS REPORT #1 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:19:59 -0400 From: Verell Boaen <[email protected]> To: Simon <[email protected]> Simon, Just a quick progress update. I've just made the final pour of an initial mold. I'm going to make a couple of 'test' parts, primarily to check out the mold's quality. I will send you one of them in a few days. I'm going to apply 'chrome' bare metal foil to the one I send you. Tell me what you think when you receive the test part. If it looks good, feel free to show it around. If not, give me a chance to correct it's problems. Since your 'good' part had several noticable blisters & peeling in the visible chrome area, I repaired the broken part. It's visable area only has one small blister, and several nicks. I'm hoping that the blister can be sanded/polished off, and that the nicks won't show thru the foil. At worst, I'll have to fill/sand/polish a test part until the visible area is perfect, then re-pour that section of the mold. The test part will not have the planned metal reinforcing insert, so it won't be anywhere near as strong as the final part. I've made a minor design mod to the part, I think you'll like it when you see it. In conjunction with the metal insert I believe it will make the reproduced part significantly stronger than the original part. I'll be surprised if the new design can be broken w/o using enough force to damag the lever also. Appraisingly, Verell | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3196 Registered: 2-2001 |
Simon,The Co. is Gateman and Son.12732 S.W. 297th way Vashon Wa 98070. Tele. 206-463-5502. Ask for Sean. This is a family run business and they are great to work with. Remind him of the plates he did on my 308 GTS and he will remember the job. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 399 Registered: 5-2001 |
Correction to my post of Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 2:04 pm: Simon's control levers have arrived. Haven't heard from Terry, assume he hasn't sent his yet. | ||
| Simon Campbell (Simonc)
New member Username: Simonc Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2002 |
Magoo Can you let me have the silk screen guys details. Verell is making me some new lever controls and I would like to get new graphics also. Simon 1977 400 in London | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3177 Registered: 2-2001 |
Verell, I had mine done and also the Borletti A/C switch plate. The guy does excellent work. Since he has the pics of my plates he should be able to do yours with no problem. Let me know if you want to do it and I will look up the guy to contact. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 398 Registered: 5-2001 |
Terry, The levers arrived in good shape. The lever bezels were what I expected. Should be able to reproduce them & the disk shaped switch knobs. Will keep U posted. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 278 Registered: 4-2002 |
The sheet metal insert on mine is fine, as is the little knob. Im not sure if my part is like the one in the pics, I wont know until I remove the rest of it probably this weekend. Fire me an email with your address so I can send this thing to you. [email protected] | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 353 Registered: 5-2001 |
Terry, We're not sure whether the 400 lever control plastic pieces are the same as the ones for the 308 controls. It would be best if You can send me the entire broken lever ass'y, including any broken bitsNpieces. That way I can use your lever ass'y to verify the new parts. Hopefully the 400 used the same parts & I'll then know that we've got a verified solution for both models. As an additional bonus, I'll also be able to make a mold to reproduce the lever's black plastic knob. I'll return the repaired ass'y to you. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing. At this time I'm planning on reproducing the plastic housing(s) for 400 & 308s that mounts the lever as depicted in Simon'd previous post: http://www.400register.com/xmlondon It'll be a while before I tackle the sheet metal inserts with the graphics on them. Meanwhile, the original ones from broken lever ass'ys will have to be reused. (However, I think I saw a post where someine may have had silk-screens made up & his redone. He may be able to help out.) | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 277 Registered: 4-2002 |
Verell, I want one. Do you need my broken one? Let me know how much $$$ for the new one and if you need my broken lever switch. This sounds great! Terry | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 352 Registered: 5-2001 |
Simon, I know your car is apart. If you can get your broken parts to me ASAP, I'll try to speed up delivery by squeezing time to reproduce them out of my weekly schedule. At worst, it will ensure I sort out the reproduct ion process in time to get them to you in December as I proposed. At best, I might be able to get them to you sometime in October or November. BTW, It would really help if you could post a few photos of a complete lever ass'y & the mounting hole for it. That way I'll know where I have clearance to beef the part up. | ||
| Simon Campbell (Simonc)
New member Username: Simonc Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2002 |
Just so you all know, after speaking with Verell I have decided to cancel the order with Chris Meachan and to send the parts to Verell and let him make some replacements. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
New member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2002 |
Been there with this issue on my 308. Plastic tends to weken with age and eventually disintegrate. PO had repaired with glue. Broke again. It is not helped that the leverage required to operate the switches is quite high. I recall that Dennis McCann (allferrariparts.com) has some too and his were a bit more reasonably priced than ICP. I did look at gettting some machined, but couldn't generate the interest for a group buy quickly enough. Brian Keegan at FPE is also a useful source for these parts. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 243 Registered: 2-2002 |
Italian Car Parts prices are not always bargains. Here is the current FNA *list* prices (USD; discounts are obtainable): P/N 60548100 Def Lever $100.17 P/N 60548200 Heater Lever? $63.66 (I may have gotten the quote for the Choke lever by mistake) P/N 50017201 Lever Knob $17.13 FYI | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 347 Registered: 5-2001 |
Very Interesting, Did he say how he's going to form the pieces? & what kind of plastic he's going to use? MY REPRODUCTION PLANS: As the basic design of this part is fairly weak, I propose to cast urethane plastic around an L-shaped steel steel reinforcing piece. The mounting screw holes would be in one leg of the L. The other leg of the L would be a tab with a round hole slightly larger than the square hole. Some portion of the square hole side of reinforcing piece might be somewhat visable in the bottom half as it's hard to align it in the center of such a thin section. However as you mention, this part of the piece is never seen anyway. The chrome would be an adhesive backed chromium foil (Bare-Metal Foil) that the auto modelers use to chrome the bumpers & trim on their models. I've been assured it's quite substantial & holds up to extensive handling. If I get the pieces by then, I'll have a go at reproducing the part during my Thanksgiving vacation week (Nov. 25 thru 29). | ||
| Simon Campbell (Simonc)
New member Username: Simonc Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2002 |
I have at last spoken to Chris Meachan who says that he can manufacture the vent control chrome surrounds for �45 each (just under $70). These will be in plastic and chrome plated, which is the same as the originals. He says he may have to chrome plate the whole piece but as the bottom half will be inside the centre consoel this will not show - I will paint this hidden area matt black anyway on my ones. I have to order ten of these to get this price and I need four so I will have six spare. If anyone is interested please let me know. Please remember that I am in the UK and shipping will be extra. Verell, as soon as I get my old pieces back I will send them to you. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 311 Registered: 5-2001 |
Terry, I'm now confident that I can reproduce the control piece. I've just reproduced something much more complex with a lot of fine detail. Take a look at my column wiper stalk repair thread's original vs reproduction photos: http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/107784.html?1031320783 I've learned how to reproduce the chrome finish on the visable part of the defrost control piece & am looking forward at having a go at it. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 260 Registered: 4-2002 |
I tell ya, between all of us coming up with ways to generate parts and make new/better stuff we may actually end up keepings these heaps running and looking pretty good without turning us all into bank robbers  | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3096 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yeah Terry, I would have been surprised when you said they had the "sliders" chrome bezels, because I had the red and blue silk screening coming off one of the chrome bezels and Rutlands or anybody else did not sell the bezel seperate. You had to buy the entire lever assembly. Which was expensive. I removed the plate inside the chrome bezel and sent it away to be re-silk screened. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 298 Registered: 5-2001 |
Terry, Italian Car Parts lists the levers. From the prices they're made of F* Unobtanium: Lever Defroster, center console, 308, 1976-83: #308DL $139.95*exchange Lever Temperature, center console, 308, 1976-83: #308TL $129.50*exchange Lever Knob, black plastic, for lever's listed above: # FR7201 $22.50 ea Hmm, they want a core back. If they're rebuilding them & using low-volume prototyping tooling like I'm doing for the wiper arm, the prices may not be that much out of line. I've got 8 hours work in the 1st half of a 2-part mold for the wiper switch, and will have 14-16 hrs in by the time I'm ready to attempt the 1st part. This should improve w/experience or a simpler part. Still, it takes a lot of time. This work is exacting to say the least. | ||
| Simon Campbell (Simonc)
New member Username: Simonc Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2002 |
Verell - Happy to send my broken peice over to you as well as the good one. Let me see how Chris gets on first and then you can have the pieces and we can see if they are the same as the 308 ones. I have looked at 308s and they appear to be the same (but have they do have different part numbers). The Dino & Daytona ones also look the same. Steve - It is the flat plane around the square hole that breaks usually. It is only this one part that is cracked around the pillars. Obviously a weak spot so thanks for the advice. I will also contact Superformance once I have some answers, thats a good idea. If it turns out well with Chris or Verell (which I am sure it will) I may make a batch of these for the list. Let me know if anyone is interested by email please at [email protected] but do remember I am in London. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 293 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanx Terry, If I'm successful(and I expect to be), I'll be happy to give you the first good pieces I produce. Don't know if you've been following my 'combination switch' (aka column switch) thread or not. If you haven't, take a look at the thread for my current plastic molding project: http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/107784.html?1030808903 My windshield wiper switch stalk broke off of at the base & I just discovered the hard way that the best of the available plastic cements doesn't bite into the plastic used to make the switch! Compared to the broken switch part, the pieces for the defrost control are pretty simple. I'm sure reproducing the switch piece is going to give me lots of experience casting plastic parts. I think it was Mark Twain who said,"Experience is what you get when things don't turn out the way you intended." | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 258 Registered: 4-2002 |
Verell, Turns out T Rutlands does not have the right part. I will be taking the broken one out this weekend to see exactly what failed and if there is any chance of repairing it. If not, I will find a new one and have no problem sending you the old one to try an replicate. If you are successful... just make me a couple too! I will let you know. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 291 Registered: 5-2001 |
Simon, Independantly of Chris's success, I'd like to have a go at the part. Would you mind asking Chris to return the broken pieces so you could send them to me afterwards? Requestingly, | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 290 Registered: 5-2001 |
Simon, Very interesting... I'd really like a try at it. The piece looks like it'd readily lend itself to a silicone pour mold. That means it could easilly be cast in either polyurethane plastic or white metal. The screw holes would have to be drilled & tapped afterwards. In either case, the chrome plating would best be done by a commercial shop. Hmm, Alternatively, Eastwood makes a chrome refinishing spray paint for plastic pieces. It might be that a coat of it plus a their Diamond clear would give an acceptable finish. To cast in brass or aluminum, a wax piece could be made in a silicone mold, then a plaster mold cast around it & the metal cast into the plaster mold melting the wax away in the process. If cast in Al, it could be polished, however, it would best to then anodize it to harden the surface and prevent corrosion. Otherwise it could need occasional polishing. I tend to agree w/Steve about the need to reinforce the screw boss. I think this could be done simply by building up the 'master' piece prior to making the mold. The build-up could be just molding clay so the master piece could be cleaned up. It looks like 400 dash vent control piece is the same as the 308s console control. Are we talking about the same piece as Terry, or a different piece? (I've never pulled my 308's controls apart). | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1012 Registered: 1-2001 |
Simon -- If you do go plastic, one thing to consider is adding more material at the sharp internal intersections of the cylinder-shaped screw bosses and the flat plane of material (with the square hole) to reduce the stress concentration factor (you can see that's where the cracking originates in your photos). Although plastics have improved a lot (and the stock material was never the greatest IMO), sharp (<90 deg) internal intesections are best avoided in design (seems the vendor erred by making the cheapest possible cavity shape for the die). If you go the machined metal route, it'll be less of an issue either way (but the cutting tool could easily be exploited to leave a small radius there). I know it's easy for me to give advice since you're doing the work, but I just wanted to let you know that FEM always shows sharp acute internal intersections are problematic. Have you considered getting Superformance involved? For your legwork maybe they'd help offset the costs of your set if they can add it to their catalog -- just a thought (it's worked for me in the past)... | ||
| Simon Campbell (Simonc)
New member Username: Simonc Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hi Verell Three of the four ventilation levers are broken on my 400. I am in London and asked in a few local news groups. I put the following message: 'What I need to do is to re-make some plastic dashboard controls for my classic car.They are all the same but not a very good design and have all broken over the years. The piece is grey plastic but has then been chrome plated. I need the polished finish but the material could be aluminium. My question is how do I do this or where do I go to have someone else do it for me?' I had a model train maker, called Chris Meachan, reply and offer to make me some replacemenst. I am sending him the peices on Monday. He will then tell me what he can do. If he cannot do this I could send my peices to you, or I could have him make some extra ones for you or other listers. No prices yet though, he wants to see the peices first and decide what material to re-make these in - plastic, brass, aluminium. Pictures of the one unbroken part I have are at http://www.400register.com/xmlondon | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 284 Registered: 5-2001 |
Terry, I'm starting to experiment with molding plastic replacement parts. Would you be willing to give/loan me as much as possible of your old control lever, and as many of the broken plastic pieces as possible? I'd like to try reproducing the broken plastic piece & see if I can use it to repair the lever. Also,One of the things that's no longer available are switch levers with the disc shaped knob on the end. Usually it's the disc that breaks off. If I can reproduce the disc, then a lot of switches can be restored. If you're willing, please send me eMAIL at: [email protected], Subject: Broken 308 Defrost Lever Please don't put Ferrari in the subject or the eMAIL will get buried indefinitely with incoming stuff from the FerrariList. Inquiringly, Verell | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 272 Registered: 4-2001 |
Terry, the slider assembly from T. Rutlands is a little different from the stock one.... If I remember right, the stock unit has a lower wire attachment pressed on, the replacement part has none... | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 254 Registered: 4-2002 |
No such luck on the screws coming loose. The plastic crumbled to pieces as it fell apart. At least it does not sound difficult to replace. I ordered 2 new slider assemblies complete from T Rutlands. $45 each... Ill replace the broken one and have a spare for when one of the others does the same thing. Ahhhhhhhhh the joys of an old car | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3081 Registered: 2-2001 |
Terry, John is correct. I have a 79GTS and have had the lever controls out of the console top plate. What has happened probably is the screws have come loose under the plate. The chrome bezel is what the control is screwed to and it is plastic. Hopefully the threads aren't stripped or the plastic bezel posts are not broken off. | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Junior Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 242 Registered: 2-2002 |
Terry, If you don't have the 308 Parts Manual, go to this site where you can download it in pdf format. You'll see an exploded parts view of the mechanism and references to part numbers should you need replacement parts. http://ferrari.stevejenkins.com/ Barry | ||
| JPM (John_308qv)
Junior Member Username: John_308qv Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2001 |
Terry, if your console is like mine the top come off easily. Two screws under the ashtray releases the front, then slide the panel foreward to release the retainer shelf in the back. All the controls will be open for inspection and repair. As I remember, the defrost sliders are held down to the console plate with two screws. Good luck! John | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 253 Registered: 4-2002 |
I apparently made a huge mistake and was messing with the defrost controls on my '77 GTB to see if I could figure out what they all do. I was moving the levers for the defrost back and forth. When I moved the lever on the control closest to the drivers seat, it fell to pieces. The little black knob came off, the trim piece that the lever fits through and that connects to the central tunnel fell apart and the lever and switch fell into the tunnel itself. Ooops. It looks like the raised trim piece attached to the tunnel and perhaps the lever housing and/or switch attached to it from below. Im really not sure how this thing goes together. It appears the plastic has given way. Any ideas on the best route to take to fix this? Im assuming the center console will need to come out and that I will probably need a new part. What part im not sure... Thanks for the help! |