| Author | Message | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2002 |
speaking of fires... There is a black 85 mondial around my town. never had met the guy, but a buddy of mine that works at a state inspection station just inspected it this past weekend. he called me last night and told me the car caught fire and is now quite crispy... DOH! | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 548 Registered: 12-2001 |
Had the aircleaner off the other day to blast and repaint it. I decided to take a close look at all the lines and connections. I found the clamps on the lines at the carbs were less than tight. I guess the lines might shrink as the get drier with age, I just replaced them in april, causing the clamps to seem loose. Looked like a fire waiting to happen. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2716 Registered: 2-2001 |
I had a few electric wires light up in the jeep, luckily I caught it when it was still in the engine compartment and didn't yet get behind the firewall and into the dash (big headache). This was with the stock BBD Carter carb (read system designed by big Ahole), since I had to do some rewiring anyways, I swapped for the Weber and DUI distributor at this time, and rewired the fog, reverse lights, etc also. Now it would be tough for anything to catch fire in there since it is so simple and all new, I still carry a full size ABC extinguisher though. A little messier than Halon, but it's gonna put it out for sure. In the Ferrari I carry a like 3/4 size ABC. The jeep is very well designed (maybe simple is a better description) and caught fire. The Ferrari is an inferno waiting to happen, how it doesn't burn down everytime I drive is beyond me. There isn't a single feature of it that doesn't strike me as "ready to go up at any time". That may be a slight exaggeration, but with a little work though we'll have the Ferrari less fire prone for sure. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3212 Registered: 2-2001 |
Erik, That was a hell of a thing to happen. How did you come out on that deal with the Insurance co. Good I hope. | ||
| Erik R. Jonsson (Gamester)
Junior Member Username: Gamester Post Number: 62 Registered: 3-2002 |
And then there are some unlucky bastards like myself... buy a partially burned ferrari GTSi, restore it to near concours condition, drive it a dozen or so miles, then burn the shop down with it inside. I guess I shall make it into a track car now... it is alot lighter with all the undercoating gone! | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1889 Registered: 2-2001 |
As part of the OBD2 emission system, all manufacturers have a misfire monitor that will turn on the Check engine light if an emission altering misfire occures, and the beauty of it is that it also pinpoints the exact cylinder that causes the misfire with amazing accuracy. Also a catalyst efficiency 02 sensor is placed behind the converter to measure the 02 content after the cat has done it's thing. Some cars are equipped with temperature sensors in the converter to warn of an overheat condition but on the cars that I repair I have never seen one with such a failure. Most Catalytic converter failures are on older cars with open loop computer or carbs that are running too rich. Closed loop converter failures are rare on the average car. This is one reason you see so many failures on older Ferraris that the emission equipment was an afterthought, rather than the engine and it's controls being designed with it. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 320 Registered: 4-2001 |
Rule #2 of Ferrari ownership.... Never pickup beavis and butthead hitchhiking... Fire, Fire.... | ||
| Matthew Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2002 |
How about a three fold system that has sensors on the manifold, Cats' and spark plugs. Manifold for dead cylinders, Cats' (for obivious reasons)for out of range temps, (The idoit lights come on too slow0, and spark plugs for ignition problems. I think I can make the computer for it. I have a 78 carb 308 gts.I need to drill some holes and get a baseline reading for all the gauges, but I think it is possible. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 339 Registered: 5-2001 |
James, The device you are thinking of is called Colortune. It is a spark plug with a clear insulator. Unfortunately, it cannot be used as a standard spark plug in that it is limited to idle and off idle testing. When all is said and done, it is a useful device for setting idle and off idle mixtures. I believe measuring exhaust manifold temperature would be reasonably sensitive to detecting a non firing cylinder. I suspect it would detect a non firing cylinder within 10 seconds if it were monitered full time. When used strictly as a stand alone diagnostic tool, I feel pretty confident that it would easily detect a non firing cylinder during idle and off idle conditions. Bettery yet, would be thermocouples installed in perhaps the gas sampling ports, where one could directly measure exhaust gas temperature. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mathew and Bill - both good ideas. Exhaust manifold temperature is getting close, but would likely be insensitive to episodic ignition failure. If a fouled plug led to 1 of 5 failed cycles, the manifold temperature might not pick it up. As I think of it, I remember an old technology I used 30 years ago to tune my Dino Webers. It was a clear ceramic? sparkplug that allowed one to look down into the cylinder as it fired. I would adjust mixture to achieve a blue versus yellow flash in the cylinder. If one had standard sparkplugs that provided a visual port to the combustion chamber, and a photocell tuned to the "blue" spectrum, then ignition failure could be detected on a cycle-by-cycle basis. Now developing this is another issue. Jim S. | ||
| Matthew Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2002 |
I did read you post, I must not have worded it right. Most newer Ferrari's have computer access points now. I have a friend that connects his Esprit to his laptop on long drives and the gives real time data. I am sure something can be developed for the f-cars. I wonder if there is an aftermarket device for the non-computer equiped cars. Maybe we should develop one? The thing would be worth it's weight in gold if it keeps the f-cars from attending a car-b-q! | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 338 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lawrence, I think your idea of measuring temperatures is basically a good one, but instead of measuring spark plug temperatures, I'd suggest measuring the individual exhaust manifold runners, surface temperatures. These should be a little more easily accessible. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mathew - read my post again. I believe the "Slow Down" idiot light measures catalytic temperature. Thus, it will not give you a warning of one cylinder not firing until it is too late. I am interested in a method of examining each cylinder individually in real time. Jim S. | ||
| Matthew Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2002 |
I wonder if there is a way to connect the slow down lights to read a dead cylinder as well. Wouldn't a dead cylinder be cooler then the others? | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 120 Registered: 6-2002 |
There are many ways to determine whether a cylinder is firing with the hood open and you standing over it. Mathew's question, as I interpreted, related to the determination while you are driving. I believe that this is an interesting question without clear answer. If one makes the assumption that high voltage at the sparkplug ensures cylinder ignition, then a sensing lead crimped to the sparkplug lead at the sparkplug for each cylinder could be used for a "missing pulse detector." The sensing lead would have to be shielded and grounded, but the electronics for a missing pulse detector are relatively simple and straight forward. However, a fouled plug would foil this system. A thermistor in the sparkplug washer for each cylinder (with appropriate lead) would be a more reliable approach, but not instantaneous. It would likely take several minutes for the thermal mass of the cylinder head to reflect a change. Furthermore, the electronics would be more complicated, as one would need a comparator circuit, not simply an absolute temperature trigger. It would be the relative temperature change that is important, for different loads would lead to temperature change in all of the sparkplugs. Interesting engineering problem. More to think about. Jim S. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 241 Registered: 4-2002 |
I've never tried it but I'd imagine you could find a dead cylinder by pulling the plug wires off (one by one) and measuring the temperature at the top of the spark plug where the wire attaches with a contact thermometer. One that is not firing ought to be cooler. The one that is not firing ought to be the same temperature as the surrounding metal. Firing ones would have to be somewhat hotter. It might be hard to find the plug end way down in there. I suspect some sort of doughnut arrangement around the temperature probe might be good to use. Or maybe just one of those infrared, non-contact thermometers might do the trick. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 436 Registered: 12-2001 |
Matthew, on a 308, you can tell if you are down a cylinder when you rev it. Its hard to describe the sound but you can hear a drum roll like sound to the engine exhaust sound. If all is well, it revs clear and smooth like a motorcycle engine. I had this problem after the engine was back in and running, I had an open in the #3 ignition lead. | ||
| Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member Username: 350hpmondial Post Number: 154 Registered: 2-2002 |
Well, james as a V-12 owner,,,, ,,,, ,, // you know the effect of .25 to .1666666666666 . Firein order. Smoooooooooooooooooottttttttttttttthhhhhhhhhhh, | ||
| Matthew Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 63 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thank you James. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 117 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mathew - not a bad question at all. It would be an interesting "technology" for someone to develop. In a 6 cylinder Dino, it is easy to detect. Sixteen percent of your power is gone, and 1/6 of your crank "power" balance is disrupted. With an 8 cylinder, things are more subtle. Only 12.5% of your power is lost, and with it concomitant imbalance. Now with a 12, all bets are off. You would never feel it as only 8.3% of power is compromised. Thus, a little red light in your instrument cluster would be a healthy thing. Yes, yours is a good question. Jim S. | ||
| Matthew Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 61 Registered: 8-2002 |
Kinda stupid question.... Is there a sure fire way to tell of a cylinder has stopped firing or is dead... please be kind to me. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2002 |
I drove it about 8 miles to the next exit. That was a very bad idea. It turns out that even if your slowdown light is connected, it may not be fuctioning as intended, that was the case with mine. That was a couple year ago and everything is fixed better than before so it worked out fine. | ||
| Al Johnson (Bigal)
Junior Member Username: Bigal Post Number: 68 Registered: 3-2002 |
Good one Dave, LOL! | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 301 Registered: 4-2001 |
Rule #1 of Ferrari ownership.... Never pickup a hitchhiking Joan of arc. | ||
| Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Member Username: Eurocardoc Post Number: 368 Registered: 11-2001 |
Mark, would you agree that those infernal "slow down" lights are worth keeping connected? | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
New member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mark, How long were you driving the car with a bank out? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 271 Registered: 8-2002 |
Magoo is right. I keep hearing about 550 Maranello fires. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 99 Registered: 5-2002 |
A bad coil wire shut down the front 4 on my QV on the highway 6 weeks after I got the car. When I pulled over, the flames from the exhaust that had been blowing out the back went up and set the rubber bumper on fire, which set the paint, lights, and trunk on fire. The dealer estimate was $18k. 2 independent distributors and a cat are a disaster waiting to happen | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 481 Registered: 5-2002 |
Fires and ufo abductions.Reminds me of 1989,1990 1991.ouch! It swims with the fishes. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3090 Registered: 2-2001 |
With the state of the economy look for more Ferrari mysterious fires. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 76 Registered: 4-2002 |
Thanks James, I've been pouring over a parts book for an hour trying to find the fuel system coils. What a dumb ass! | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 103 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bill, I assume Brian is referring to the ignition high voltage coils. Should they fail, the sparkplugs won't fire, and petrol will follow the airflow through the intake valve and out the exhaust valve in its native form - highly volatile. When it gets to the catalytic converters, the heat will lead to combustion and a smoldering flame within the enclosed can. They get red hot. This, of course, assumes only one coil failed, because if both failed, you won't have a fire - the car won't start. Jim S. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 75 Registered: 4-2002 |
Brian Stewart, What are the coils that you refer to. I have replaced all my hoses etc. Still have a slight leak at the main fuel supply on top of the engine. The silver braided hose. Have replacement ordered but not arrived yet. Where are the coils you talk about, I don't want to miss anything! | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 479 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hey Caruso any pics of the system???????? | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 478 Registered: 5-2002 |
Carry an extinguiser. You got to remember that a lot of these cars are 20 years old and older now and s**t will happen. I dont think they are anymore susceptible to fire than other cars.The carbed 308 is a fuel line nightmare.but wear and dry rot etc. are due to age. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1288 Registered: 9-2001 |
The fog light switch on my 1986 TR caught fire one time. Had to replace the entire overhead console. | ||
| Frank Bussi- Sottile (Caruso348)
New member Username: Caruso348 Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2002 |
Installed Automatic Halon Fire Suppression system. The bottle is mounted in front luggage compartment. Aluminum tubing is routed through the shift cable trough and back to the engine compartment. There the tubing is terminated into two spray nozzles for maximum coverage. A 12 volt switch assembly is mounted in the shift console. Just depress the switch and exit. It's instantaneous. Cost me about $800, parts and labor. | ||
| Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Member Username: Eurocardoc Post Number: 362 Registered: 11-2001 |
We always recommend replacing all fuel lines on carb 308, I have had three insurance jobs through the shop in past two years. Don't forget the crossover hoses between the tanks. On later cars, especially QVs, the coils can fail and push raw fuel through the cats, they get RED hot igniting the surrounding area (two this year) and with the rear bumper being figlass on 328 they go up too! (one) No fires yet on TR but have replaced plenty of coils/cats. Also a built in automatic extinquisher is not expensive. works much faster and safer than the one under your seat. IMHO | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
Member Username: 4re308 Post Number: 649 Registered: 6-2001 |
Oh God, why did I just look at that site? | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 220 Registered: 1-2002 |
It is my understanding that the 2 main causes are faulty carb floats and overheated cats. The cat problem is supposed to be more prevalent on 12 cylinder cars since the owners are less likely to notice a dead or misfiring cylinder. It's certainly a great idea with any carb car, all of which are now 20+ years old, to check all the lines frequently, especially afte the car has been sitting a while. Dave | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 285 Registered: 5-2001 |
When I pulled the A/C to do a belt change on my '83 308 GTS QV, I had my head in the wheel well & happened to look up in the area the compressor normally occupies. One of the metal crimps on an A/C hose had worn almost thru a fuel line! Needless to say this got fixed in a hurry & the fuel line tied out of the way. A few weeks later a F*lister reported that his car had caught fire on the freeway because his A/C hose had worn thru the fuel line, the fuel hit the hot manifold, & the engine compartment was toast. There was a recall for this problem, but apparently it missed a lot of cars. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 110 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ah, yes. Peter the Paranoid. <jk> I have one in my car also. Put it there when I did a minor carb rebuild. No confidence in my repair abilities. | ||
| Al Johnson (Bigal)
Junior Member Username: Bigal Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2002 |
I had a fire once in my Pantera, no real damage, but scared the hell out of me. A completely helpless feeling. Ever since then I carry fire extinguishers in ALL of my vehicles. I even carry one with each motorcycle. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1983 Registered: 12-2000 |
I've replaced ALL of my hoses (as I did have a hose blow out on me before). But, even after replacing my hoses, I still carry one of these (you just never know...)  | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 650 Registered: 4-2001 |
Paul, you must be destined for something great as God saved your bacon..  | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 390 Registered: 12-2001 |
I had a fuel smell from my carb 308 a few weeks ago. I looked under the aircleaner from the side with the key on and could see fuel pouring down the head to the top of the block and down to the cam drives. I s h i t my pants because I just got off the highway from an hour long drive when I noticed. One of the carb fuel filter nuts came loose and I checked the rest and they too were coming loose, just from using the car. Now I always check that and the lines to prevent an inferno. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2015 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hey, plastic saves weight! <joking> I'm sure mine came close to candling when I lost my front bank spark because of oil in the distributor cap and I drove about 5 miles on 4 cylinders while dumping fuel in the other 4. When I did pull over my exhaust was orange hot. | ||
| Allen Cook (Alcook62)
New member Username: Alcook62 Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2002 |
I had a major service done at 30K on my '78 308GT4 and Guy (his name is "Guy") at The Sportscar Shop in Monterey pointed out that my oem fuel lines were brittle and that the fittings were made of plastic! You can imagine what plastic fittings would become after 24 years! He replaced all the hoses and installed nice brass fittings in place of the plastic ones. Come on Ferrari, plastic fittings!!! Thats a disaster in the making. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 274 Registered: 4-2001 |
A fire extinguisher is great to have as long as it is within reach, and of the right type.... A good Halon unit is great... Some insurance companies will not pay if you use the wrong type extinguisher that will do damage to your engine.... And some folks would rather just let it burn, and let the insurance company total the car rather than rebuilding a burnup... | ||
| Matthew Lemus (Mlemus)
New member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2002 |
Leaking Carb can do the trick. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 269 Registered: 4-2001 |
Most common cause that I know of is in older cars.... Check your fuel lines and fittings, and the large line that goes from the point where you put gas in, to your gas tank... It will crack and get brittle over the years. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
New member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2002 |
After regretably visiting a site wreckedexotics.com I noticed a lot of fire damaged Ferraris What is the typical reason a Ferrari engine would catch fire and what kind of preventive maintenance can you do ? Do the fires start and heat up so fast a fire extinguisher cannot control them? Thanks in advance |