| Author |
Message |
Ronald A. Bernstein, M.D. (Benkc)
New member
Username: Benkc
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 12:21 pm: | |
A word on alternators: rebuild
Had rad whine and dimly flashing red warning lights with failure of gps and other added electronics. Porsche repair noted failed diode (test took 1 minute to diagnose) and replaced same day within hours at under $200 total (gave him little holiday bonus!). It's NOT difficult to remove from 328 Mondial cab and Bosch parts are fairly standard. |
Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member
Username: Asianbond
Post Number: 51
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 9:29 pm: | |
I agree with Jim on the point that an alternator is an alternator. If they're both matching voltage specs then there's no harm in replacing it with a non-genuine ferari part. Also found out my 348's air con compressor is a japanese unit. My ideal f-car would have a ferrari drivetrain with Japanese ancillary componenents (air con, starter, alternator, electronics, etc.) |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 113
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 8:25 pm: | |
As mentioned - it was not a Honda, but an American car. Daytona - 365 GTB4 - The Prancing Horse variety.
Edward - I agree that different alternators and manufacturers call for different voltage regulators. However, fundamentally they are all functioning in the same way. They sense battery voltage, and through a voltage divider apply a feedback voltage to the field of the alternator. Thus, for short-term (5 minutes) testing purposes, any handy voltage regulator will suffice. The danger of using the wrong one long-term is over charging (or undercharging) the battery with obvious consequences. Sorry if I overstated the issue.
Jim S. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1874
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 4:25 pm: | |
All Voltage regulators on modern Honda cars are built inside the alternators and really cannot be seen fronm the exterior. I do not know what kind of Daytona you are speaking of, Ferrari or Dodge. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 306
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 3:25 pm: | |
The BOSCH voltage regulators have the rotor brushes integrated into the package. They are pre-set for various output voltages to allow for alternator-battery voltage drops. Note also that they are pre-curved to match up with different slip ring diameters. See the pictures in the following cross-reference.
http://www.usi.com.tw/capabilites_products/usi_b1_3a_4.htm
As I mentioned earlier, for more detail, read the following thread in the archives:
http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/64196.html
Then search the archives for 'Alternator', there's a lot of info already been said... |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 111
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:33 pm: | |
One correction - it was not a Honda regulator placed in the Daytona, but an off the shelf "American" car regulator. I do not know which one.
Jim S. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1298
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:21 am: | |
Also, check the ground strap from the alternator to the engine or frame. On my 348 I thought the alternator was going bad and it turned out to be just a loose ground strap. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 110
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:03 am: | |
Edward - just curious. Are you referring to the mechanical dimensions / fit, or to the electrical characteristics, or both? I have seen a Honda voltage regulator inserted into the red case of a Daytona regulator to make it look authentic.
Jim S. |
Eamon A Blaney (Eamon)
New member
Username: Eamon
Post Number: 37
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 6:23 am: | |
Report them to your local Trading Standards Authority or equivalent Government office. After all that is what we pay taxes for, isn't it ???
Eamon
Ireland |
Peter (Bubba)
Junior Member
Username: Bubba
Post Number: 199
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 5:55 am: | |
Thanks to Chris' advice, I am taking the Mondial to another mechanic who can rebuild the alternator (if it is indeed broken) for about 45% cheaper. FYI, the refurb shop wants to charge me US$460 for the rebuild and about US$1400 for a new one! Hmmm.... |
Chris A. (Asianbond)
New member
Username: Asianbond
Post Number: 50
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 4:03 am: | |
Guys, my guess is that the repair shop refinishing Peter's rims deliberately loosened the alternator connection just to get back at Peter for the wheel matter and another way to make some bucks. It sounds way too coincidental to me for the alternator to just go like that. Or shops can deliberate fried your alternator by using your car to jump start another car with a higher voltage starter.
Bottom line, with a Ferrari you must find a mechanic you can trust, because the local wrenches see you as walking moneybags and yes, there are unscrupulous shops out there. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1872
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 8:51 pm: | |
All voltage regulators are not the same nor interchangeable. A Bosch regulator will only fit a Bosch and a Delco will only fit a Delco. Most all Bosch alternators on older cars such as the 308 use the same regulator but if you try to install one from a Hitachi or Nippondenso or Delco you will be busy for a long time. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 108
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 7:25 pm: | |
Peter - I have had 3 alternators fail over the 25 years of Ferrari ownership. I concur with most of the comments. However, diode failure is as likely, albeit academic.
Before starting down the slippery slope of pulling your alternator, I would test the voltage regulator by "borrowing" one from a local garage or from another car. Despite advice from several mechanics, and comments on this thread, a voltage regulator is a voltage regulator - once you seen one, you have seen them all. They should maintain charging voltage around 13.8 volts. Even if the borrowed one is a little off (too high or low), for purposes of testing, you won't hurt anything. If you have access to a voltmeter, start the engine and check battery terminal voltage. If 13.5 or greater, the problem is not your alternator or regulator. If less than 12 volts, then you are uncertain as to the cause. This is when you plug in the 3 wires of the borrowed regulator. Simply swap the known good one for the unknown original. Recheck the battery terminal voltage at 2000 RPM. If the voltage is 13.5 or greater, then your problem is the voltage regulator, (go find an inexpensive one from Fiat or Honda). If the voltage is still low, then your alternator is the culprit.
My most recent alternator failure was a result of oil over many years and several thousand miles (from the cam cover not sealing). REBUILD YOUR ALTERNATOR, do not purchase a new or used one. Too much money. A rebuild should cost less than $100 U.S., and is as good as new (if not better). They will check and replace diodes as part of the rebuild.
As a rule, in Ferraris, getting the alternator out is a real pain in the rosey red rectum (I like alliteration). Thus, it is worth swapping the voltage regulator as a test.
One final observation, in those F-cars with the battery in front and alternator in rear, the long field voltage circuit frequently leads to a voltage drop and low field voltage at the alternator, which looks all the world like a failing armature. It is worth a few minutes to examine and clean (with sand paper) the plug connectors at the main fuse to the alternator typically located on the fire wall. There are two connectors, one for the field voltage, the other for the main charging conduit to the battery.
Jim S. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1869
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 6:29 pm: | |
The alternator voltage regulator is what causes the low RPM delay. The Ferrari alternator runs at a lower speed than most cars therefore it takes a higher initial RPM for the Regulator to kick in. If you put the same alternator on a VW or Mercedes the light would go out quicker because the alternator turns faster at idle speed on those applications. It takes about 2000 RPM on my 308 for the light to go out. It is not charging until the light goes out by the way. |
Harry (Harry)
New member
Username: Harry
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 6:24 pm: | |
Lawrence, what you describe is normal. The alternator has no load when you start the car (otherwise you would add the load of the alternator to the starter motor load) and starts to work when you blip the throttle for the first time. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 303
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 4:20 pm: | |
Larry,
The empirical results s/b interesting. I'd do it, but I've got my car off of the road for a few days while I repair my wiper switch & re-dye the seats.
re:"It does not dim when the engine returns to idle. It also does not dim if I drop the rpms by putting in gear and slipping the clutch to drop to the point where it is barely running. This suggests something is getting energized and remaining energized."
Yes, I'm pretty certain that the 'something' is the battery. Once the battery's surface charge has been restored, the load on the alternator drops, & alternator can then maintain a higher output voltage under idle RPM conditions.
It's possible that the alternator's voltage regulator changes modes once it sees a higher output voltage.
I'll take another look at my wiring diagrams tonite to see what drives the warning light, & see if I have a voltage regulator schematic(I know I saw one a while back, but don't remember where). |
Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member
Username: Lawrence
Post Number: 234
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:03 am: | |
Verell,
Yes, my light remains on until I blip the throttle. But if I turn on the interior light, then blip the throttle, the light immediately gets brighter when the red light on the instrument panel goes out. It does not dim when the engine returns to idle. It also does not dim if I drop the rpms by putting in gear and slipping the clutch to drop to the point where it is barely running. This suggests something is getting energized and remaining energized.
The next time I drive it, I'll stop it on a hill and start it by rolling at very low speed. It'll be interesting to see how the interior light behaves then without using the starter. I think it'll do the same thing. This has been going on for the 15 years I have owned the car. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 302
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 10:20 am: | |
SOUNDS LIKE THE ALTERNATOR
Check the voltage sense wire & the high current cable between the alternator & the battery to make sure it hasn't opened up (not likely).
If back of the alternator is oily, then go straight to a rebuilder. Oil sucked inside will destroy an alternator in a couple of thousand miles(Ask me how I know.)
The alternator voltage regulator/brush assembly is most likely your problem. It's a std. BOSCH part used on many European cars. Search the archives for 'alternator BOSCH'. There have been several threads on them. Get the numbers off of your alternator. Pull the little voltage regulator box off of the back of the alternator. It's held on by 2 screws. It has 2 brushes on the inside of it that contact copper slip rings on the alternator's shaft. You have to take it off by carefully rotating it so that the brushes swing up & away from the shaft. If you try to pull it straight out, you'll destroy it & the brushes.
Look to see if the slip rings have deep (more than ~1/16" grooves in them, & and/or if there's a lot of oily/greasy copper dust on the brushes, slip rings, or in that general area. If so, then go to 'find a rebuilder' below.
If the slip rings are OK, & there isn't a lot of copper dust, then there's a good chance that the brushes are worn down to the nub, or one is broken, or the regulator has failed.
One of the threads either has, or has a link to, a site that lists all the F* alternator part#s, and the part # for the voltage regulator/Brush ass'y. Also, a rebuilder can cross-reference the alternator numbers & come up w/ a regulator ass'y number. Most likely it'll be in stock. Insist on a BOSCH regulator. I've had 2 rebuilders tell me that the 3rd party ones just don't hold up, and some don't regulate to the exact voltage.
You can try replacing the regulator ass'y yourself & see if that fixes the problem. If not
then it's time to:
FIND A BOSCH ALTERNATOR REBULIDER:
Ask the shop manager at a local german car dealer & ask who they send BOSCH alternators to. Alternatively, go to your phone book and look for 'alternator rebuilders' (sometimes listed under 'electric motor rebuilders').
They can check your alternator out & rebuild as much as is needed. Ask if you can bring your alternator in to be checked & to get a quote on repairing/rebuilding it.
Generally rebulds run $100-$250 unless the rotor has to be replaced. The rotor for my QV's 80Amp alternator was $200 & took a month to come from Germany & get thru US customs.
Lawrence,
re:"my 328 does not charge when I start it until I blip the throttle."
I presume you're basing this on the instrument panel battery warning light staying lit until you blip the throttle. My '82 308 QV does it also.
One time, when my 308's alternator belt was slightly loose, it would squeal until the light went out. Once the light was out, it was quiet. The squeal was indicating that the alternator was presenting an exceptionally heavy load on the belt while the light was on.
The light is an indication of battery voltage. The battery is drained down by the start & it takes the alternator a while to bring it back up to full voltage. During this interval the battery warning light will be on.
Because of the 308's high rev's, the alternator pulley is 'undersized' to keep it from spinning too fast when the engine is up around red-line.
The down side of this is that the alternator is spinning too slow to develop max. current when the engine is idling. The alternator doesn't develop max current until the engine speed is 1800 RPM or so.
So, after a start, it will take a long time to replenish the battery if the engine is just idling. It should eventually get there.
Blipping the throttle gives a couple of seconds of full alternator output which is enough to quickly bring the battery voltage up to where the light will go out.
|
Drew Altemara (Drewa)
New member
Username: Drewa
Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 10:00 am: | |
I would see if you could just get it rebuilt. It's just a Bosch alternator. There are several shops here in the USA that will do it for under $100. Don't know about Hong Kong.
Good Luck |
Harry (Harry)
New member
Username: Harry
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 9:43 am: | |
Peter,
I bought a replacement alternator for a '75 GT4 for about 180 EUR from Bosch. It is actually a Fiat part. Try www.bosch.com to locate a bosch dealer in Hongkong. He can look up the availability of parts in his computer. I needed a full rebuild or replacement because I was driving too long with the red light glowing and the collector of the alternator was worn too much. In your case I would think replacing the regulator/brush set would work. |
Peter (Bubba)
Junior Member
Username: Bubba
Post Number: 198
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 9:11 am: | |
Not sure Lawrence, but I think the shop is going to tell me that I need to replace the entire alternator. More $$$. I will check its service history to see if the alternator had been replaced during its 16 year history.
Can anyone here shed some light on the replaceable brushes for these Bosch alternators? Generally, how long do Bosche alternators last?
My Mondial doesn't seem to need throttle blipping. I used to fire it up and let it warm up for 5 minutes or more without ever blipping the throttle once. I think I am in with an alternator problem. |
Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member
Username: Lawrence
Post Number: 233
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 8:58 am: | |
Sounds like aternator to me since it happened while you were driving. Does the alternator have replaceable brushes? Mercedes does - just got through replacing a set on one of my MB's. It is a brush/voltage regulator all in one for about $45. It is made by Bosch.
One other thing, my 328 does not charge when I start it until I blip the throttle. It has always done that. Evidently, a relay is getting thrown when I raise the rpm. It has always done it and a Ferrari mechanic told me it was normal.
If your car is set up that way, maybe it is not the alternator but this switch thing. |
Peter (Bubba)
Junior Member
Username: Bubba
Post Number: 195
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 8:41 am: | |
I was on my way home after collecting my Mondial 3.2 (86 Euro model RHD) from the shop after a wheel refurb job. About a mile away from home at a stoplight, the Mondial just sputtered and died. Before the car died, I noticed that the speedometer was gyrating wildly before settling down, windshield wiper stopped working where they worked earlier during the drive, and the A/C began blowing warm air. After failing to restart the car numerous times with everything off, had to tow it back to the shop.
The shop swapped the battery and it started. Thought it was a bad battery problem (the original battery was a Delphi unit that was installed less than 5 months ago), but the voltage at the battery poles was less than 12V even when throttle is applied. The mechanic suspects alternator failure not battery failure. Will confirm later. Sorry to be long winded, but I like to be thorough.
So, your comments regarding the following would be most appreciated.
Does the problem described indicate alternator failure?
I saw Dennis McCann selling the alternator for 328 (Bosch 85A part# 121761) for $650. Is this the same one for the Mondial 3.2? Italiancarparts.com sells a rebuilt one for $480. Do these prices look reasonable?
Thanks!
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