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Message |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 316
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 8:26 pm: | |
Robert,
It's not a dramatic fade to orange, just a slight orange tinge has appeared. It only shows in certain kinds of light. I can't totally rule out it being a color miss-match that I overlooked. Since it wasn't done on my watch, I can't comment on the paint quality either.
Light compounding/polishing/waxing doesn't change the shade, just takes the swirl marks out. Unlike the rest of the car, polishing the bonnet leaves no color on the polishing cloth. So I don't think anyone tinted the clear either.
As I mentioned before, I've got this ~1-1/2" wide x 6" long strip where I was trying to reduce the visability of some very visable cat scratches & cut thru the clear coat & the base coat. revealing the underlying single stage. As soon as I started cutting into the base I realized what was going on. After that I was just trying to restore some gloss so it wasn't highly obvious. At the right angle you can see where the clear feather edges into the base which in turn feathers into the single stage.
(Actually, we've probably spent too much time on something that has an obvious fix. I do appreciate your sympathetic response.)
I'm not yet comfortable enough w/ChromaOne & my spraying skills to tackle the bonnet yet. Hopefuly I will be by the time I take care of the rocker panel rust bubbles.
I got some good practice repainting my lawn tractor with ChromaOne last year.
I know, I know, pricey paint for the application. It was intentional practice in prep for the rust bubble removal project.
It really helped refresh my spraying technique. The last few pieces of it I repainted, the final coat flowed out very nicely. Even the early ones have only a little orange peel that I'm going to try color sanding & compounding one of these days.
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Robert Davis (H2oquick)
Junior Member
Username: H2oquick
Post Number: 173
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 7:07 pm: | |
Thats too bad Verell, I hate when I hear somebody has had a problem with past paintwork...I will say one thing, not to argue, just a statement...as you know the quality is in the quality, just like you said you use chroma one...the best IMO, but if you are having fading in the two stage it must be some low quality paint. I have had cars that I have painted better than 10 years ago, and they are daily drivers exposed to the elements. And I live in Florida so the sun takes it toll. They look as good as the day I painted them (minus any nicks, or scratchs or boo boos).I also have painted several dragboats, which have the harsh punishment of be beaten on, fuel splash, and the speed of water on the hull. One boat I have painted has traveled 202 mph in the quarter and the paint is very durable and looks great even after 5 seasons. The first car I painted in 2 stage was a Daytona Spyder back in the early 90's and it still looks great. If your base is fading to orange, I don't know what to say. I have never seen a base color fade in Red to orange (and did not even think it possible) Now if you can wax it back to red...you do not have a 2 stage or you have a 2 stage where someone has pigment colored the clear. If that is so then someone really screwed up...either way good luck and thanks for the chat. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 314
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 3:11 pm: | |
OOPs, Typo in my post of Thurs. 5-Sep:
It should read: "has almost NO tendency to orange peel". Totally changes the phrase.
Robert,
At some point the bonnet of my 308 was resprayed with a 2-stage, while the rest of the car is still a single stage paint. They did do a great job color matching. When I'd detail the car, both paints were an equally deep rich glossy red.
I didn't realize that it wasn't all one paint job the 1st year I owned the car. It wasn't until a cat deeply scratched the engine cover & I tried to compound it out that I realized that unlike the rest of the car, the engine cover was a 2-stage.
A big mistake as now I've got this spot on the engine cover where I cut thru the clear/base & into the original color. It's only noticeable from the right angle, but then it's very noticeable(sigh).
Also,Last year, the 2-stage faded slightly towards orange after I left it out in the sun for a couple of while I redid my cam belts. It's only noticeable if you're really looking close, but I know & have had a couple of detailers notice it & suggest color sanding. I have to explain to them that it's a 2-stage paint,& my only option is to sand it down & respray.
Maybe it comes down to what you're comfortable doing. I'd rathar have enough paint to color sand every few years than I am dealing with respraying/spot repairing a 2-stage.
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Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 91
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 8:09 pm: | |
just scuff it up and lay on 20 coats of russo corsa nitro lacquer...water sand with 400 and then hand rub it out with red dupont rubbing compound...just kidding...oh I miss the old days.. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 229
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 8:03 pm: | |
Robert: I really appreciate the info. Thanks.
David: I agree with you that the prep is 95% of the paint job......something that can never be overstressed. Thanks. |
Robert Davis (H2oquick)
Junior Member
Username: H2oquick
Post Number: 170
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 7:00 pm: | |
That too Verell is a good paint, but for touch up or panel repair the whole panel must be repainted. Where the two stage can be spot blended and panel recleared. I have sprayed it and it is very durable and has a very high gloss....but it still does not have the deep, deep, did I say deep lustre of the two stage. Plus everytime you wax or clean it you are cutting into the pigment itself. It is easy to use, but I will do a 2 stage over a single stage all day long...I usually average at least 3-5 spray jobs a week..sometimes overalls...sometimes panels. Plus any trash in the clear is easy to remove, where in a single stage it is in the color. I guess it all comes to personal preference and what you feel comfortable with...Good luck and happy spraying |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 309
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 3:49 pm: | |
I hate to muddy things, but...
HAVE YOUR CAKE 'N EAT IT TOO
(If your '88 TR's original finish was a clear/base system, forget the rest of this post.)
But,If your '88 TR's original paint is single stage, there are single statge catalyst cured urethane paints that are are just as tough & chip resistant as the 2-stage urethanes.
They have the additional advantages of: retaining show points, they can be color sanded to remove scratches or fading, and chip touch-up is a lot easier with a single stage paint than with a clear/base system.
DuPont's Imron which you mentioned, and ChromaOne are a couple of well-known examples.
I haven't worked with Imron, but I have done a bit with ChromaOne.
ChromaOne is very easy to apply and leaves a very deep glossy/wet look finish. If you can successfully spray Lacquer, you'll love ChromaOne. It's much more forgiving than lacquer, has tendency to orange peel if you follow the recommended flash interval, and the final finish is superb.
I'm using ChromaOne color matched to my '83 Euro 308 QV as part of my rocker panel rust bubble removal. My hope is that it will seal the surface well enougth to block recurrance. |
Carmine Nicoletta (Ncarmine)
New member
Username: Ncarmine
Post Number: 20
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:56 pm: | |
What is a Standox repaint?
Carmine |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 310
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 8:17 am: | |
Henry, no matter which paint system you choose to use on your car,
The prep work you do before you paint your car is usually the determining factor in a good looking paint job. |
Robert Davis (H2oquick)
Junior Member
Username: H2oquick
Post Number: 169
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 11:37 pm: | |
Henry, A scuff and shoot will be fine providing 1. The color you are shooting over is the original paint. 2. That it is in excellent condition, no checking or nicks, scratched, fading, or peeling. Knowing that this has been a driver it will probably have some of the above. Dents and dings need to be repaired and primed. Just as rock chips and scratches. I recommend after the bodywork required ,to prime the areas with a good urethane primer and block.
When shooting 2 stage paint it is quite easy.... a bit easier than you think. Basecoat is applied usually 3-4 coats depending on color (with NO sanding between coats). After the flash or drying time is followed by 2 coats of clearcoat. Allowing each coat to tack before next is sprayed. No sanding is required between the clearcoats and I really do not recommend excess coverage because you are building up mils of paint on the surface. I usually do 3 coats, because I color sand pretty heavily starting with 1000 grit and finishing with 1800 grit. I like machine buffing with both air and electric buffers, personal preference and what you feel comfortable with is a must. You can easily mess up a nice job by scoring or burning the paint with the buffer. I would be happy to talk to you on this, I just put some of this info to kinda let people know how easy the system is to use. Not only is it easy to use but pretty forgiving to touch up and repair. I am not saying that it is for someone with no experience at all, but I have seen some nice finishes from those with some knowlege, time and care. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 227
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:12 pm: | |
Robert: I am sold on your 2-step process (base coat urethane/clear).....I don't enter my cars to be judged....my primary concern would be the deep look, and durability.....I DRIVE MY CARS!!!!!!!!!
I would appreciate you walking through the steps with me: (let's assume the color is already solid)
First would be to scuff up the original paint.....would 400 wet be OK? Of course, if any metal shows, then that area would be primed, and wet sanded (400 wet).
Next, would be to spray a double coat of the base paint......or would 2 double coats be in order?
Then, I would wet sand the base with 600 wet. If 2 double coats are sprayed, then, I would wet sand between coats (600 wet).
Next, the clear coat would be sprayed (1/4 paint and 3/4 clear).....one double coat.....wet sanded with 600.....and sprayed again, but with pure clear, and wet sanded again with 1200.
Of course, after each sanding, I would use prep solvet, and tack cloth, prior to the next spraying.
Now the car is ready to rub out.
Do you agree? If it is the clear coat that gives the final shine, then, am I correct in assuming that one does NOT need 2 double coats of base? Also, then, adding more clear coats would enhance the color? (with sanding between each coat)
OR, am I going over-board with this?
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Robert Davis (H2oquick)
Junior Member
Username: H2oquick
Post Number: 168
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 9:20 pm: | |
Listen David I am not here to argue..The urethane 2 stage system is the best...as far as showing your car, I will leave that to you. For the everyday driver, easy to maintain, handles the elements...nothing is better than 2 stage. And maybe I should correct on show cars...most that I have observed are painted with the 2 stage system. Nothing and I mean nothing can compare to the gloss and deepness reflected of a 2 stage system...Basecoat/clearcoat systems have progressed so much over the years.
As far as a 2 stage system I mean a reduced basecoat color with a Clearcoat topcoat. Pearls are usually 3 stage with a base color, a pearl secondary followed by a clearcoat. We do color sand and buff everything we do, this makes for a flawless finish with dazzling brilliance. Epoxy are durable and in the marine industry are very resistant to weathering but in automotive topcoats are hard to work with and just do not have the variety of color matching and repair as found in the 2 stage systems + are very expensive. I have painted quite a few systems on the market, we use the Sikkens system. I always have like the Dupont Chromabases. They are easy to work with and have great color matching. PPG is also a fine product. Each have their good and bad points. Again the clearcoat is what will make or break a finish in the long run. |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 307
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 8:20 pm: | |
Henry, I don't paint cars for a living.... But I paint them often enough to know a modern Acrylic Urethane paint is probably your best bet.
My current favorite is PPG concept DCC...
Very easy to work with....
Best thing to do is to take your car in and have a multi angle digital reading taken.
Be sure the area they take the readings from is clean.
They can then computer match your current paint color as close as possible....
Good luck with your quest for paint. |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 306
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 8:05 pm: | |
Henry, easy way to tell.... polish your car.
No car color on the rag, clear/base... car color on the rag, single stage....
By the way Robert, paint an early Ferrari base/clear like you mention and show it, and you will loose points big time.
Ferrari used Glidden Salchi Eurolac, or Acrilur paints, depending on solid color or metallic finish, up until mid 1980.
Then they switched from Gliden Salchi to Glasurit brand paint in mid 1980...
All brands used a single stage except for metallic colors which used a base and clear coat.
Do I paint cars for a living...... No,
I just have original paint left over from the numerous Ferrari restoration projects I have participated in over the last 20 years.
But what the hell do I know......
Attenzione
Messcolare Bene
Prima Dell'uso |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 336
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 7:50 pm: | |
Robert,
What's the trade off with true epoxies and urethane based paints, from a refinisher's standpoint? I've found these paint types to be extremely durable, especially in a marine environment. Is it a question of application difficulty, toxicity, and limited color choices? |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 226
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 7:44 pm: | |
Robert: I gather then, that the 2-stage poly-urethane is the paint of choice, with a clear topcoat. When you say "2-stage", are you referring to a 2 part paint mix, or a 2 part painting process....or....is the paint sprayed on as the complete paint, with one spraying? Is the paint wet sanded prior to application of the clear coat, or is it just the clear that is wet sanded, prior to buffing.....OR both? |
Robert Davis (H2oquick)
Junior Member
Username: H2oquick
Post Number: 167
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 6:50 pm: | |
must be good crack.....but hey what do I know, I don't do drugs...paint cars for a living perhaps |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 305
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 5:57 pm: | |
I hate to be contradictory, but unless I have been smoking crack, Ferrari did not use a basecoat/clearcoat on their older cars except for metallic colors, and just recently started using this method I believe with the 355 and newer cars....
But then what the hell do I know. |
Robert Davis (H2oquick)
Junior Member
Username: H2oquick
Post Number: 166
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 5:19 pm: | |
Basecoat/ clearcoat system is the only thing to use. This is what your 88 TR is painted with. Do not use a single stage paint such as Imron it will NEVER match.(Imron is a product name by Dupont) Ferrari used both PPG and Glasurit on its cars. Again these are name brands and you could use another such as Dupont's Chromabase or Sikkens bc/cc system. The quality and lasting finish will be with the clearcoat you use. I like ChromaClear but there is other high quality products out there. Do not use epoxy for a automotive finish, I think you will be very dissapointed. And of course there is lacquer which faded away a long time ago and has absolutely nothing to show for itself when it comes to the new two stage urethanes. Plus as far as I know you can't even buy it, at least our suppliers are not. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1301
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 4:22 pm: | |
An 88 TR came with Glasurit brand paint. I'm not sure what type though. |
Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 225
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 9:34 pm: | |
In the early 70's I would paint parts of my '67 Corvette with acrylic laquer (strictly a hobby). Later they changed to acrylic enamel, on cars. Now I hear of poly-urethane.
I would like to try and paint the front bumper of my 88TR, due to stone chips.
When did the F cars use the above paints?
I have also heard of epoxy paints, used in construction equipment, and boats (Imron). Would this be feasible on a Ferrari? This are supposed to be EXTREMELY strong!!!!!! |
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