| Author |
Message |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 397
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 4:01 pm: | |
Mike C.
Received the dist. cap in good condition.
IOU 1 If I can make them.. |
Erik R. Jonsson (Gamester)
Junior Member
Username: Gamester
Post Number: 55
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 1:25 am: | |
Unobtanium GT4 Part...
The spring steel part which holds the gas flap open/shut. Should be easy to build if I could source a 4cm*6cm plate of spring steel. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 391
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 9:48 pm: | |
Paul,
Good thinking, but I'm ahead of you on this one. Having my wiper switch stalk break is what got me started on my unobtanium mfg. endevor. I plan to offer all 3 column switch stalks in small quantities by mid-winter. They'll be my 1st product.
I'm also offering a column switch repair service.
If you'd like to see a side by side photo of my repaired wiper switch stalk and my first reproduction, check out the thread:
"ADHESIVE FOR REPAIRING COMBINATION SWITCH??"
http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/107784.html?1031718501
It has the full saga of my stalk repair (which is still holding up). While writing up one of the posts the concept of making unobtaium parts hit me. I thinking out loud (well, w/my keyboard)at the time, so the inspiration (or stroke of folly?) behind my business endevor was captured in print! |
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 148
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 9:22 am: | |
Robert, that switch is the reason I don't like to let others drive my car...my cousin was driving me crazy a few weeks back to let him drive it and when he got in his knee just missed the switch...I freaked!! |
Robert Johnson (Carb308)
New member
Username: Carb308
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 10:11 pm: | |
Verell<
Another unobtainable part for the 308 series cars is the turn signal / headlight switch. I made parts to repair mine out of UHMW with a Dermmel tool. You can get a rebuilt part for $1000.00 with a $500.00 core charge. This is not a difficult part to make but, new ones are non-existant. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 385
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 1:31 pm: | |
As I said in my preceding post, X-rays are my plan B.
However, having the real pieces to measure & examine fine details of how they're made would always be better.
For example, fine detail such as knurling, or internal threads in the brass pieces does not show up, at least in in dental X-rays.
I've seen the X-rays of my 6 implants, and you can't even tell that the implant is two pieces nested together, much less that there's a bolt holding the pieces together.
You have to know that the roughness on the outside of the implant post are the threads for screwing it into the jawbone.
BTW, dental films are a tad too small for this work, & the cost per image is astronomical. I could buy a new distributor for what a dentist would charge me for 4-5 images. An 8-wire rotor would require a minimum of 3-4 images to get it's full detail.
However, there are other places that do X-rays if it comes to that.
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Eamon A Blaney (Eamon)
New member
Username: Eamon
Post Number: 44
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:08 am: | |
Verell,
Take your caps down to your local DENTIST ! They all have xray machines with instant printouts. Make an appointment if neccessary !
Hope this helps.
Eamon
Ex Mondial 3.2 Cab (presently for sale (there is no justice!) in Hendon Way motors London, see pic in my profile) |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 383
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 9:49 pm: | |
UNOBTANIUM PROGRESS:
I now have received/donated by
'i' (308 GTxi) Rotor/FerrariChat's Stephen Schroeder
8-Wire distributor Cap/FerrariList's Pat Scopelli(sp?)
4-Wire distributor Cap/FerrariList's Jeff Greenfield.
Gas filler rubber flap/Me after the 1 I bought from ICP 2 years ago developed severe cracks.
Thanks to the above donors!!
I still could use a 2nd sample of each distributor cap type that I could dissect to see how the brass parts are made. They can be in very rough shape. Plan B is to find a way to get the caps I have X-rayed.
Are there any Unobtanium parts? Ie: parts that are completely out of production & becoming very hard/impossible to find? If so, please post them to this thread.
My lathe is on an UPS truck somewhere between Toledo & Chelmsford MA. Scheduled for delivery Friday. |
Mike Dawson (Miked)
New member
Username: Miked
Post Number: 46
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 8:25 pm: | |
Edward beat me to it, I was going to mention the dual plug Nissan. My 4 cyl. Ford Ranger has a dual plug set up with a pair of 4-coil packs, they might be the basis of an economical distributor-less ignition system.
I haven't looked at one in a long, long time but I think the early V12 Jags had the concentric ring set up. It's a way to space out the contacts (without having a cap the size of a garbage can lid) to avoid cross firing within the cap. For some photos of a Nissan based dual plug ignition on an Alfa, check out this site.
http://mev4474.home.texas.net/racecar.htm |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 374
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:03 am: | |
Stephen,
This is great news. I'd greatly appreciate getting your 'i' rotor. As I mentioned earlier, I'm giving true unobtanium pieces priority. Reproducing an 'i' rotor is high on my list.
I'm emailing you my address & shipping info. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 2024
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 8:35 am: | |
The 4 cylinder Nissans with dual ignition use a similar cap with two coil wire inputs, 8 plug wire sockets and two carbon contacts. |
Stephen E. Schroeder (Seschroeder)
New member
Username: Seschroeder
Post Number: 29
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 7:15 am: | |
I've got a rotor from a 1982 308 GTSi that is is good shape with the exception that the end metal piece is loose. You are welcome to it. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 369
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 10:57 pm: | |
I've just received a 'donated' 8-wire distributor cap. I'd never seen one before & was amazed to discover it's really 2 concentric sets of 4-cylender contacts molded into a single cap! Even has 2 separate coil lead input connections. There's got to be a maze of wiring inside of this thing! It's going to be a bear to reproduce!!!
Unlike the 4-wire caps I'm used to, this one uses conventional plug-in ignition wiring.
I've also bought a 7x12 mini-lathe & accessories. That will help with a lot of the smaller parts.
Also, I've got a milling table for my larger radial drill press. It's going to be interesting to see what kind of precision I can get out of it.
I'm hoping it'll be good enough to make dies for punching out sheet metal parts. Because the milling table is so high, I'm having to convert the drill from a table model into a floor model with a much larger work table. I need to turn one piece in the lathe when it arrives to finish the conversion.
My venturi vacuum pump came in, & I'm converting an old pressure cooker into a vacuum changer. By pulling a vacuum on the fresh=poured castings I can ensure they don't have air bubble voids in them.
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'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2021
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 1:35 pm: | |
FYI: Actually, the absolute cheapest I've seen for caps is found surprisingly in the "Vintage" parts section of the Ferrari Owner's Site. They were listed (the last time I looked) at 123.50 UK Pounds (Okay, so that's only 1.50 pounds cheaper than SF...). This is the price for a twin dist. cap. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 350
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 11:02 pm: | |
Brian,
These are 'i' rotors aren't they? The following assumes that we're talking about 'i' rotors, & they are no longer in production.
The deal I've been offering people is:
Send me your bad distributor cap or rotor.
I'll make a 'best effort' to reproduce it.
If I'm successful,I'll give you one of my initial batch of good ones for your donation.
This offer will end when I've got a couple of pieces good enough for me to use them as 'masters' to make a mold from.
Beyond the std. deal, The best I can offer you is 1st dibs on buying the 1st 10 production 'i' rotors when and if I decide I can economicly reproduce them, at a price I believe I can afford to sell them for.
If this is acceptable, then send them to me. After all, what have you really got to loose?
I'm not sure what I'm going to have to charge for 'i' rotors, but I'm concerned that it may not initially be as low as $35 each. I think it might get there eventually If there's steady demand for quantities large enough to justify investing in/makeing hard tooling.
Economicly meaning:
1)I can make & sell an otherwise unobtainable part at a price that people are willing to pay. This will NOT always mean that I would be able to sell it for a price comparable to a similar 'in production Ferrari part', However I do intend to try.
OR
2) I believe I can:
a) make a part in small volume lots of 1 to 10, even with a total annual volume likely to be less than 10-50 pieces or so.
b)Sell it for 25% or more below the lowest current advertised retail/dealer price.
I'll consider higher volume parts when I gain more experience & have a well established business.
The sheet metal pieces in general are more of a challenge to me right now than molding plastic parts! I'm figuring to make the initial batch using either used sheet metal pieces, or pieces fabricated using hand tools just to prove feasability & get an idea of what the real cost to fabricate would be. Meanwhile I'm trying to figure out how to punch sheet metal parts out w/o a large capital investment in steel dies. Until I get past this tooling hurdle, I can't commit to building rotors. I've got a lot of learning to do yet.
On the other hand, I do have a strong incentive to overcome the sheet metal part mfg. problem: If I can economicly tool up to punch out sheet metal parts in low volume, there are a lot of product opportunities that I could respond to.
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Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Member
Username: Eurocardoc
Post Number: 378
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 9:32 pm: | |
I have two bad ones, if you sell me 10 replicas for $35 each, you can have them. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 349
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 6:41 pm: | |
Brian,
re:"Cheaper than any alternative.."
Not if the 'i' rotors can be reproduced to sell for the same price as the newer rotors.
Anyone have an 'i' rotor? |
Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Member
Username: Eurocardoc
Post Number: 377
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 6:49 am: | |
The solution for the unobtanium round rotors is to change the spud on the camshaft end, then use the available later rotor. Cheaper than any alternative. Caps are already available for under $250 eaqch. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 346
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 9:49 pm: | |
EUREKA!!!
re:"80-82 GTBi/GTSi's used a round type rotor which is apparently unavailable"
This is exactly the type of part I want to give priority to reproducing. True 'Unobtanium'.
Anyone got a defective 'i' rotor they could spare? |
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 111
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 8:59 pm: | |
non- "i" rotors are Carb cars...
The 80-82 GTBi/GTSi's used a round type rotor which is apparently unavailable
Carb and QV's have a similiar shape more traditional looking rotor...QV has a wider t-shaped contact area. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 179
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 5:29 pm: | |
Really confused here. What do you mean by "non-I and QV" rotors? Are cars older than "I" (e.g. carb cars) different? Or do you mean later (e.g. 328) cars? |
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 104
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 1:48 pm: | |
verell,
the prices are outlandish...though ICP's prices really set the standard for outlandish...AW Imports has some real good prices...I dug out the Standard catalog which has some great picts...If you like I can make some copies of the prospects and mail to you (send me an e-mail)
the non-"I" and QV rotors are $3 to $4 items..infact, FAF was charging $2.18 retail for them in 1984...
being an investment guy and based on their current value of around $59 they have provided quite a return...
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Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 338
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 1:20 am: | |
Paul,
Sounds like you have some nice resources you can network with. Maybe Standard has a 'soft' tooling process that they use for engineering or custom rouns.
I remember one time we were looking at a plastic part & an aluminum mold good for a few hundred parts was pretty cheap, while a hardened steel mold was 10x the price.
I wouldn't be surprised if they used plastic molds for low volumes these days.
What got me on distributors was seeing ItalianCarParts price for a distributor & rotors:
Distributor Cap, all 308/QV/328 & Mondial, reproduction: #FRDC $329.95 ea
Distributor Rotor, 308i & QV: #FR4288 $79.95
Distributor cap center carbon pad & spring, all models: #FR0567 $19.95 ea
Note the word 'reproduction' - ICP is getting someone to build them for them. Doesn't say if the rotor is a reproduction tho.
Sodacom is asking even more for a distributor!!:
http://shop.auctionwatch.com/sodacom/item/536971228/index.html
Their rotor price is lower, but still quite high.
http://shop.auctionwatch.com/sodacom/item/536272538/index.html
I know that the volume of 308 parts is pretty low, but these prices still seem astronomical.
FerrariPartsExchange <http://www.ferraripartsexchange.com/electrical.htm> is even lower priced $225 for a distributor cap. They don't list a rotor tho.
Superformance has the best prices so far:
Distributor cap twin distributor model (Each) 0124F �125.00 ($193.68)
No Twin Dist. rotors listed.
Distributor cap single distributor model (Each) 0125F �138.00 ($213.82)
Marelli rotor single distributor model (Each) 0140F �35.70 ($55.31)
Seems to me a distributor should be in the range of 2x that of a higher volume aftermarket part.
|
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 174
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 4:09 pm: | |
I'd buy a pair of caps and rotors, if they fit a '75 model. I'm a bit confused as to whether there is more than 1 design for the twin distributor setup. |
Steve (Steve)
Junior Member
Username: Steve
Post Number: 207
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 10:42 am: | |
OK if there needs to be a qty. to keep build cost down I'll be in for 4 caps and rotors. How about a list of folks who would want to be in for the initial run. Also I assume that the caps would be 8MM usable? |
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 102
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 10:10 am: | |
Verell,
Not sure which valox they use (there used a blue for their bluestreak heavy duty and a black for their regular line) just remember seeing many 50 lb bags of it in the basement in Long Island City...I have some contacts there still that I could find out from and also inquire as to if a run of caps would be feasible...
I have a marelli catalog and there are a couple of early 1970's 124 fiat caps that look like they could potentially be modified to work...main differences I see are that most are of the spring clip variety and not screw down and that the wires attach with the more common plug in/snap in method rather than pinch with a pointy screw. The caps for the following marelli distributors are set up horizontally and look like prospects:
S135F,S140B,S134B,S144B,S144AA,S153A
For the record the distributor on my 78 gts is S159B
I'm going to also pull out one of my old Standard catalogs with photos to see what else they may have. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1940
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 4:53 am: | |
Would it be more feaseable to see if a company like Standard could make a run of caps that are needed since they are set up to do just that? I know that it is fun and a challenge but sometimes somethings can be done a lot easier and cheaper. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 334
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 10:35 pm: | |
Ben,
Thanx for the offer, I want to think more on what you've said. BTW, what is the tolerence on the contacts & how did you figure it out?
(I assume you're referring to the gap between the contact & the end of the rotor.)
The contacts look like an ideal automatic screw machine application, but I'd have to have some volume to amortize the setup cost. That would still leave lathing the molded unit to cut the gaps.
Oh, yes, congrats on your electronic distributor, looks like a nice one.
Paul,
I'm very interested in finding the spec's for a plastic used to make distributors.Any chance you remember which Valox resin they were using? Was it Valox 310SEQ, the GP resin, or were they using a glass or glass/mineral reinforced varient such as one of the Valox 400,700,800, or HR series sub-types? Possibly HR426 - Their Automotive grade resin?
I also want to look into your suggestion of "modify a marelli cap for an alfa,fiat or lancia...there are a couple that look very close.".
Could you be a bit more specific as to which ones look close?
There aren't very many Alfas, Fiats, or Lancias in New England. Most have succumbed to the salt & been sent to the crusher. Since I'm going to have to go calling salvage yards to see who has something to look at, a specific make & model would be a big help!
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Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 100
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 8:19 am: | |
many years back I worked for Standard Motor Products..aftermarket maker of autoparts (blue-streak,standard-plus)...they had a neat process of producing caps and rotors using GE Valox a plastic powder..the caps were actually made in a heated stainless steel die and pressed...(smelled horribly) the dies were very expensive to make...they looked like artwork...
I'm thinking that it might be easier to modify a marelli cap for an alfa,fiat or lancia...there are a couple that look very close. |
Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
New member
Username: Brainsboy
Post Number: 46
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 7:20 am: | |
I actualy have reproduced the caps and rotors using cold plastic injection. I did this before designing my Millermon conversion distributors. Making ferrari caps for me was a great project however there was too much time in it. Keep in mind you need to machine the contacts inside the cap. Also when the cap is done, you need to lathe the cap so the contacts are within tolerance for the rotor button. I ground off the old Ferrari names on the cap before making them, as im sure they have a copyright on it. Overall, it was too time consuming. It takes less time for me to make a Millermon Conversion distributor then to make a ferrari cap. But if your still interested I would be more then happy to chat about the injection process I used, and share my thoughts. |
Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Member
Username: Eurocardoc
Post Number: 373
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 9:34 pm: | |
Aftermarket caps are available through most regular sources such as GT Carparts, Algar Rutlands etc.. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 331
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 9:21 pm: | |
Steve,
Ben Millerman(brainsboy) has a kit that completely replaces the stock distributor with an electronic unit. He does some nice machine work to match up an aftermarket distributor cap, electronic pickup , etc.
I've also searched the archives & couldn't find a hit on 'distributor mold', and then searched for 'distributor'. Nothing about molding a cap.
Maybe you saw it somewhere else?
My goal is to make quality reproductions that are exact replacements for the OEM parts for those who want to keep a stock appearing car. One that would pass concours inspections. Any improvements i make will be out of sight unless you disassemble something. Thus I need to start with OEM parts. |
Steve (Steve)
Junior Member
Username: Steve
Post Number: 206
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 8:39 pm: | |
Verell I don't have either available but I seem to remember somewhere back in the archives someone named BRAINSBOY had made a mold for the caps and it worked. I don't know where he went nor if the caps were a success but I think it was done. I was also thinking of just making an adapter ring that fits over the stock F dist. and allows you to put on an aftermarket cap. You could also find a near lookalike rotor and machine a part that slips over the F dist. and allows you to slip on the rotor. Maybe another solution? The later model 4 cyl. volvos had a cap with the outputs on one side. Food for thought. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 328
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 4:24 pm: | |
WANT TO TRY MAKING CAPS & ROTORS
Any chance some of you could give me a distributor cap and/or rotor to use as a model for making them?
After my success in reproducing a wiper switch, I want to try something that I might be able to sell more than a handful of.
Of course, they wouldn't come in yellow boxes with black horseys on them... But,My hope is to be able to make quality ones that can sell for significantly less than current prices for F* Unobtanium ones.
I'd like to get both a 4 wire and 8 wire distributor cap and 4 & 8 wire rotors that are electrically bad but are in good mechanical shape that I can use themm as 'masters' to make new reproduction caps. I could even use cracked/broken ones if there enough pieces to reconstruct the original shape with only small cracks.
The donated cap will most likely get destroyed in the process as I need to learn how to make the metal contacts molded into the cap.
No promises of success, but if I get something that looks good, I'll gladly give the donor one of the 1st 3 I make.
I can test 4-wire caps & rotors on my car, but don't have a way of testing 8-wire caps/rotors.
Any takers please post a response here, or send me eMAIL w/Subject: "Donating a 308 Distributor Cap" I'll eMAIL you my address to ship them to.
Requestingly,
|