| Author | Message | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 124 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mitchell, we did all that too, but the result was less than ideal. The only good part is that I saved the money for valves. Because I had to custom make the guides, I made the ID .0005" undersize and polished the valve stems so I didn't need to replace all the valves. I guess the point was that in many shops, the new guides would be installed anyway, resulting in an oil problem. If you get lucky they'll at least use loctite so it will be a year or 2 before the problem shows up. You need to know they'll fix it right. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 416 Registered: 11-2001 |
Mark We heated up the heads, use a valve guide punch of appropriate size, and with one "blunt" hit the guide just falls right out. Sorry to hear that you had to go through the extra effort of machining and making new guides, but it was fun, wasn't it? GT Car Parts have all the stuff I need at great prices. Ask for Bill. Be sure to ask for the Viton seals. As for a machine shop, check their work and references is the way to go. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 123 Registered: 5-2002 |
Yeah, any competent shop can do the work. The problem is identifying one. Since experience is the best teacher, you can�t go wrong with a shop that specializes in Ferraris. With local shops, they go from excellent to very bad. Unless I have complete confidence in them, like personal experience with them or references I�m happy with, I�d send them to someone I�m sure knows what there doing. The piece of mind is worth the postage, the actual cost is usually about the same. Also, the shop that specializes in Ferraris knows where to buy quality parts at better prices than you are likely to find on your own. That said, like Mitchell, I did my own because I enjoy working on my car. A friend of mine has an engine shop and gave me a key and any advise I needed. Although neither of us expected the head to gall when I knocked out the old guides. I had to re-bore all the guide holes and make oversize guides. It�s fixed and works great, but a shop with experience with Ferraris would know that if the engine has been over heated, you need to cut the old guides out. I saved money, but it cost me a month of Saturdays. Good luck! | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 414 Registered: 11-2001 |
Myles, I am very sure that Nick and/or Ric will be able to do the valve job for you and it will be expertly done. Those two persons are the best of the best Ferrari mechanics. In my case, I had time to hang out at the machine shop where my engine was being machined. The owner (60 years old and in business for 40 years) taught me how to do a 3 angle cut, how to check it, what to look for, how to grind valves faces, and how to cut the valves, how to shim the springs, plus all the why's and where's... I ended up using his machines and did my own valve job. He did the surfacing and replaced the guides though. There was nothing special about a Ferrari head that required any more technical expertise, or time, or special equipment. Peter Rychel PeterGT4 also did his own valve job and it turned out perfect. My point here is a valve job is something that a competent machine shop anywhere will be able to do. So, unless you absolutely must have Nick or Ric to do your valve job, you can also ask around in your town for someone who can do a V8. you will have to supply them with specs. Just my humble opinions, absolutely no disrespect to anyone on the board. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2002 |
just an update guys.....I hooked my air compressor into one of the cylinders and filled it with 115psi air. All four valves were closed and I could hear/feel air coming out of both the intake and exhaust. I'm suspecting bent valves somehow.....none the less....the motor has to come out  Anyone have opinions on where to send the heads for work? Nick?? Ric?? and cost estimates on labor if I were to provide the valves, seals, guides, and seat? Thank you so very much for everyone who tried their best to help with this!. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 357 Registered: 5-2001 |
Myles, Bummer!! You must have entered your bad news post while I was editing my preceding post. Next step is to figure out why you're losing compression. Put about 2-3 teaspoons(no more) of 50W oil, Motor Honey or equivalent in #1 cylinder & re-test it's compression. The oil will ensure the compression ring seals, even if it's really really bad. Thus,If the compression significantly increases, then the problem is rings. If it doesn't change, then it's valves, & the ringa may be OK. If it's valves, you may only need to pull the head & have a valve job done. However, the fact that it happened very suddenly, and affected the entire rear bank, makes me suspect that the belt has jumped around & you may have slightly bent valves. BTW, It's probably worth checking the front bank's compression also. That will tell you just how much of a problem you have. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 356 Registered: 5-2001 |
Myles, re:"Mine is marked |PM 1-4..." Don't feel that you'r car is unique, does this look familiar:  Your cam is definitely miss-aligned, looks like about 7-9 degrees of so. Enough so it won't run right, but not far enough so that piston-valve interference is likely. Just rollow Ric's advice, check compression, Check your timing drive bearings & tensioner pulleys very carefully, If all is OK, line it up & get new belts on before you try to start it. Once you have the new belts on, turn it over at least 4 times by hand & verify that the marks all still line up. (There've been some long posts on this this year.) | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2002 |
sigh......cams re-aligned....no change...compression still down 30-50 across 1-4 (didn't bother with 5-8) I've never seen anything like this before. Catostrophic head gasket failure?? Bent valves??? Cracked pistons?? Compression rings took a vacation to Italy??? This was an over night failure...no warning....i just don't get it. Unless someone would let me borrow their magic wand to wave over my car....I think I'm headed for a rebuild.....wanted to clean the motor anyways. Thank you to all who tried in vein to help.....I'm sure I'll be consulting you durning the rebuild. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1337 Registered: 9-2001 |
Bret long time no chat? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2664 Registered: 2-2001 |
Funny how they change the markings on the flywheels even. Do they make any two cars alike? As long as you use the line it will be fine. The belts are made by Isoran (other companies make them, this is the OEM one though from Italy). Some are stamped Isoran, Isoran Pirelli, or Ferrari. They are belt number 096R254. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 399 Registered: 11-2001 |
Myles, Things that are automotive and mechanical in nature want to be driven around more often than ... once every two years. I know you could not help it but the 2 years sit is exacting a toll on your engine. Seals are failing, bearings are ... not turning well, rust is taking place. Get your car running, clean it up, and drive it every week. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1330 Registered: 9-2001 |
we have never seen that before  | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 270 Registered: 4-2002 |
When you get around to changing your water pump, use something like PB blaster nut loosener on the nut. That nut might not want to come off easily. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2002 |
just noticed this.....unlikely i know but, water pump failing = knock???  | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 248 Registered: 2-2002 |
DO NOT start the car until the new belts are in place. If stripped teeth, locked tensioner bearing or other physical problems caused it to get where it is now, there's no assurance it won't jump again. While you have the valve covers off and the belts are changed, have a compression test done on at least the head in question to verify the integrity of the valves and seats. A tiny bend in the valve stem will cause the seats to misalign and not seal properly. Tread carefully now and you just might save a few thousand from a costly mistake. IMHO | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2002 |
First off I would like to thank EVERYONE who has helped me on this...I couldn't turn a wrench without you guys! It's late now so will probably be working on this another day. I'll reset the cams (btw checked the back bank and they're lined up just fine...well looking from the outside using the little pointer that's rivited to the belt cover...dead on center)but my markings on the flywheel are different. Mine is marked |PM 1-4..... NOT..... PM|1-4. I have mine set at the 1st | (to the left of the "P")have the distributor off..rotor is pointing at #1 and I can see the piston at the top of it's travel....so I'm pretty sure I'm at the right location. As far as the belts are concered...I will most definetely change them...anyone have a part number that I might find at a local parts store so I'm not ording them special? (IE is a Gates t210 the correct belt for a 84 qv?) Again thank you all so very much...I'd be lost without you. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2662 Registered: 2-2001 |
You can turn the engine slowly by working a screwdriver in the teeth of the flywheel. That's best for aligning it precisely after you move it with the starter or a wrench on the balancer like you have been doing. A fair number of cars come in for the first time with cams "aligned" like this so I wouldn't worry too much about something big time damaged just yet. Do what Edward says, but just food for thought. Realigning the cams isn't a hard thing to do. You can get it close enough with using the flywheel markings to get it to run well. When all is done it would be good to replace the belts as they are a one time tension only deal and only cost like $15 a piece. With the valve covers off you can easily see when the valves are closed and do a quick leakdown of each cylinder. This would verify if the parts themselves were in good order, that would leave the timing as the only reason for leakage. Also, make sure you use the right marks as they can be a little deceiving, your car as a euro should definitely have PM|1-4, with the line in the middle being TDC@1. Even the good mechanics sometimes use the M or 1 by accident as they can be hard to see. As far as the fuel injection, it's all Bosch K-Jet most likely and was used in a several forms in everything from Volvos to Mercedes in the time period so that can be taken care of if need be. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 397 Registered: 11-2001 |
Myles Make sure you are at TDC #1, and not TDC4. You can check this by the position of the rotor and that it is pointing to the #1 plug wire position. That far off, 1/4 inch, will cause low compression for sure. So, loosen the belts, put the timing back in-line, tighten the belts, and try again. It should fire this time. But, now we are off to find what is the source of that slapping noise and low oil pressure. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1973 Registered: 2-2001 |
It can definately cause a compression loss. Check both heads for misalignment and then put it back in time and try it again. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2002 |
sooooooo.......do I re-align the cams with the corresponding notches and try again....or leave them alone. Would this amount of deflection be enough to cause me to loose my compression? | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1972 Registered: 2-2001 |
That much usually is not enough to hit a valve. There is still a problem somewhere for the oil pressure to drop and the engine to knock. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2002 |
gulp....ohhhhhhhh sh*t......cam gurus...tell me this is right and I'm not dreaming in thousands of dollars here. Car is at TDC #1 (within a 1/16 of an inch according to the marks on the fly wheel) and here is what I see under the valve cover. The actual distance between the two marks is approx. .25" (1/4 of an inch) Think I'm slapping some pistons with valves and this is why I have no compression?  | ||
| Robert Moore (Nail_it)
New member Username: Nail_it Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2002 |
I've seen this before where both banks had low compression, 30, 30, 60, 50 on one side and I can't find the reading I took on the other. The problem was both cams were off more than 10' , not so fare that the valves hit. But it would not start. I found that the "HAMMER MECHANIC" that installed a new set of timing belts did not lock down the cams before installing the belts. He had on ider where the timing marks were and he did not remove the valve covers. The cams rolled when he took off the old belts. So remove the valve covers and check the cam timing to see if this is the case. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 390 Registered: 11-2001 |
While you have the plugs out, get a 1/2 inch 36 mm socket from Sears (~$10), turn the engine over until the flywheel is #1 TDC (you have to verify that by opening the distributor of 1-4 bank and see where the tip is pointing), and then put an index mark on the damper so that next time you do this, you will not need a second pair of eyes looking over the flywheel. Like Ed said, this problem of low oil pressure is indicative of a significant problem inside the engine and likely will require a rebuild. That is when you will need 1) a Parts manual, 2) a work shop manual, and 3) the combined knowledge of the experts on this board. Number 3 saved my ass countless times. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 261 Registered: 4-2002 |
Someone on this list said nut was 36 mm. I know my 32 mm is not big enough. I turn mine over by putting bolts in hub, raising both rear wheels, removing plugs, putting in 5th gear, and stepping on bar that is between wheel bolts. Socket is better way to do it. Whoops, someone else already verified 36 mm. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1943 Registered: 2-2001 |
With an oil pressure loss and a power loss and knock, you can almost be assured that there is a serious internal problem inside the engine. | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 307 Registered: 9-2001 |
The damper bolt takes a 36mm socket. Good luck | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2002 |
looks like I'm done for the night.....thanks for all your help mark! | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 114 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm not sure 30 or 32mm I think. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2002 |
mark I see the arrow on the bell housing....but I don't have a socket even remotely large enough to fit the balancer bolt and trying to "bump" the motor around on the starter is moving it too far. Any idea what size that balancer bolt is? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 113 Registered: 5-2002 |
There is a rubber plug on top of the bell housing, find the oil filter and look down. The flywheel is marked (#1 tdc) and there is an arrow bolted to the bell housing. All the mark on the cams should be lined up. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2002 |
sigh.....thanks henry....you're right | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 112 Registered: 5-2002 |
There is a gear on the crankshaft that drives the oil pump and turns the shafts that run the timing belts. Did you check the timing yet? | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 255 Registered: 8-2001 |
Myles: I think it is time.......to get a workshop manual for your car. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2002 |
ok......is there a procedure for doing this? I see there is no TDC on the balancer.....so I'm guessing it's on the flywheel and requires removal of the clutch etc etc etc. please correct me if Im mistaken. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 387 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well, at least you find the reason why it won't start. I would do what Ed (I would do anything Ed says, he does this for a living) says first: check the registration marks on all the cam shafts versus the position of the crank at TDC number 1. If the belts are off a tooth or two, you can get low compression like that. Even if you did have good compression and the engine starts again, I would not expect the original low oil pressure problem to just disappear. But, back to the original reason for why you shut the car down for 2 years: low oil pressure. This is very serious and may probably require the engine to come out, stripped down, and inspected for the cause. Then, at that point, you might as well rebuild that engine before putting it back in. As someone said below, it is probably $4K for parts. I would reserve a $5K budget for this if you do it yourself because you will need machine work and you will find something that you ... might as well take care of. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2002 |
comp results for the forward bank are as odd as the back bank. 30, 30, 70, 30? How on earth could I loose BOTH banks without some sort of small arms fire or a grenade going off under my car!? Two COMPLETELY toasted head gaskets??? ALL valves leaking......all rings bad....makes no sense. I checked my guage on my Camaro and it shows 150lbs instantly...so the gauge works.....any ideas??????? | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2002 |
just checked and the belts are ok...do for a change...but they are in tact. Car was running fine one day....then the next day had a knock associated with a drop in oil pressure and loss of performance....shut the car down imediately. Haven't had the time/money/or garage...parked the car for 2 years. Now I at least have the garage portion of the equation. Now here we are with the no start condition. Still in the process of checking the timing...will move on to the forward bank compression test after that. Thanks for all your help Mark....I miss my baby. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 110 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking, oyur belt isn't broken. Maybe slipped like Ed said. Did you have this car running before it was parked or did you buy it not running? It may have had a broken belt in the past that has never repaired right? How did the front 4 compression come out? I ask because it should start and run on 4 if that is all that's wrong. Did you repeat the compression with a shot of oil? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 109 Registered: 5-2002 |
It's more like 4 for parts. The gaskets a lone are almost 1. Is your timing belt broken? I'm guessing yes. You can probably just pull the head and replace the bent valves and you'll be back in business. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1942 Registered: 2-2001 |
It may have only jumped a tooth or two on the timing belt. Remove the valve cover and check the belt timing before proceeding with anything else. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2002 |
Sigh.....sob.....cry....wail....compression check on the back four......30.....60....90.....30 shot some oil in...spun the motor over a few times and those number came up slightly. So.....what's the estimated cost on doing a rebuild? I've built a few small block chevy's from the block up....guess I can do this too....though the thought scares me. I'm guessing about $2,00 in parts alone if nothing more is wrong. Any ideas before I pull her out? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 108 Registered: 5-2002 |
There is no doubt it's sparking? If there is spark and fuel it should at least pop, unless it's so flooded the sparks foul immediately. Is there compression? You could also try disconnecting the fuel pump, pull the plugs, spin it over the clear it out. Put it a new set of plugs, hit it with starting fluid. If it pops, reconnect the fuel plug and try again. If it won�t pop again, it�s flooding. If it never pops, it�s back to are you sure it�s sparking and is there compression. If you want to talk about it, shoot an email with a phone #. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2002 |
drained and replaced gas with fresh....replaced spark plugs.....still nothing.....just cranks and cranks with no inclination of starting. Any other ideas? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 106 Registered: 5-2002 |
I like the drain and replace the gas. If starting fluid isn't making it pop, and your ignition is working, your plugs are probably bad too. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 260 Registered: 4-2002 |
Myles, there is a very good article in this September/October issue of "The Star" (the Mercedes club magazine) for Bosch CIS fuel injection. The unit in my 328 looks just like the one in my 1980 Mercedes V8. I would remove the spark plugs and squirt some motor oil into the cylinders. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 259 Registered: 4-2002 |
Siphon out as much as possible. Beneath the car there is a crossover pipe that connects the two gas tanks. Once you get the fuel level as low as possible, open the drain. It is about a 19mm plug with a copper crush gasket. Do it slowly as the remaining fuel is going to gush out. You might also disconnect your battery before doing this. And be cautious with your trouble light. Don't let gasoline get on it or your car/house could be toast. The 328 has this drain. I am assuming a 308 has the same drain. This is what I do to get tank out to change front timing belt. I hope your fuel distributor is not screwed up from lack of use. There are some close tolerances inside. | ||
| myles kleinfelter (Gonzo350)
New member Username: Gonzo350 Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2002 |
OK need to pick everyone's brains for a bit. 1984 308qv Euro that has not been started for 2 years. Just replaced injectors (thank you to everyone who offered help!) have fuel, have spark but motor just turns over....will not fire. Starting fluid (yikes) doesn't do any good. Fuel accumulator seems fine (no fuel in vacuum line) ....will be checking compression tomorrow....but would appriciate any ideas. (car has 81,000 on it. Was thinking about draining the gas tanks and replacing the fuel.....after 2 years it can't be good....anyone have a procedure on this? Thanks!!! |