| Author |
Message |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 619
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 1:41 pm: | |
I emailed some questions about it and they were vague with the answers.Not sure if I want to take the chance of it being bad.At 400.00 it would be a good deal. |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 365
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 7:11 pm: | |
Bruno,
Gentry Lane, in Canada, has been running an auction for a 308 muffler with a cat, on ebay, for a while now, no reserve. It's claimed to be a low milage one and looks to be in good shape. At $399, it's looks to be a pretty good deal IMHO. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 616
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 12:43 pm: | |
No humidity.Hotter days it acts up sooner and worse.Coils new,plugs new ,fuel pump new.It's not my cats .I removed them and found someone hollowed them out.I am wondering about flow through muffler as it is almost even at both sides when car first starts and almost nothing on passenger side when car is hot and acting up.I remove it and cats and ran car(sounds mean) both sides are even.I noticed some one cut the muffler open before and welded it shut.HUM. I might start asking around for cheapest price on muffler that will fit in and look stock/Dont want whole new system.Muffler rattles when you shake it.Bad news. |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 364
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 10:38 pm: | |
Bruno,
Except for the Electromotive ignition system, my 78 GTS is basicly stock. For your carb car, I'd be checking the fuel pump, smooth operation of the ignition advances, and the coils.
For the fuel pump, check that its ground is solid.
For the ignition advance, check both distributors with a timing light and confirm smooth advance and retard based upon rpm.
For the coils check that all the wire terminals are secure and clean. Follow up with a look/see on an ignition scope, especially after a troublesome 45 minute run.
When the car begins to run poorly, you might want to pull over and pull the aft bank plugs and see if they can shed some light on the problem.
Sorry, but no magic solutions here. I think its going to be a matter of checking and testing each of the components and their electrical interconnects.
Does humidity have any effect on the engine? |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 2062
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 10:11 am: | |
We are working on two different cars here and I do not believe that the problems have the same defect. There is a lot of difference between the two vehicles we are trying to cure. My references were for the 85 QV. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 611
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 9:44 am: | |
Ed the problem is it comes and goes and I would have to give the car up and let someone drive it around till it acted up and then hook it up.My Audi ran fine till it got hot then it stopped.The first time it did it I left the car where it was overnite went back the next day expecting to call a tow truck turned the key,it started right up and I made it home.Tried to start it up and go when it was hot,no go.Just a theory.I dont think it is losing a bank cause it still does 80 mph and runs too smooth to have a bank down.But you never know.Will eliminate cats and go from there.Arent these cars fun?Been thinking of way to put idiot light on bank while driving to see if it is dropping out.Was thinking maybe timing light?? Any ideals. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 2060
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 5:04 am: | |
I have never seen a Cat that would be clear then clogged. They are either good or bad. It would be almost impossible to come and go. I suspect an ignition problem killing one complete bank of cylinders. An ignition scope during an episode will tell the truth. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 607
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 7:25 pm: | |
My 86 Audi 5000 did this and it was the cat. I'll let you all know if the removal of the cats solves my problem. |
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 167
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 5:20 pm: | |
Joe, the fuel accumulators could be shot too...I had problems with these on the P-cars and had a friend with a 328 that had similiar problems to yours that tracked down to the accumulators...damn bosch stuff...just can't mix german parts with Italian cars |
Joe Craven (Rscapri2600)
New member
Username: Rscapri2600
Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 5:08 pm: | |
I've finally brought my car home and it is running as bad as ever. Its running lean when connected to a smog tester while the motor is revved. My next step is to test the fuel pressures and evaluate whether the CIS frequency valve is functioning properly. Does anybody have any recommedations for a CIS fuel pressure test kit which will work with the Ferrari Mondial? I see one for sale at JC Whitney in addition to kits manufactured by Star Products. I also need to buy a dwell meter so I can test the frequency valve(at least the signal to it)
|
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 603
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 4:48 pm: | |
Bill have you done anything else.I am replacing my cats this week.Will know if that was it by next weekend. |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 352
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 4:59 pm: | |
I can't help wondering how the cat(s) could cause this problem, but only when hot? It doesn't seem likely. When the monolithic block in the cats starts to fail, flow channels can begin to close up. But when cold, they can't magically heal themselves and open up again. So any affects caused by the cats would be noticeable anytime you are in a high exhuast flow condition. |
Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Junior Member
Username: Mcharness
Post Number: 70
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 10:45 am: | |
As an alternative to Nicks' straight through test pipes, if you think you might be leaving them on, check out Stebro's "euro resonator" pipes. They're test pipes that replace the cat(s) but have a center section that is slightly larger than the ends, and gives a deeper, less harsh sound. I have one on my 308/QV, love it. No more expensive than straight through pipes, either. |
david handa (Davehanda)
Junior Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 239
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 9:12 pm: | |
Bruno, you can easily remove the cats and check to see if they are indeed plugged or collapsed. I would recommend getting Nick's test pipes, instead of hollowing them out, those cats are expensive, and you may need them in the future. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 586
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 9:00 pm: | |
Bill great suggestions they were all addressed by the Fdealer back in spring at my 30k.Unfortunately after spending big bucks and replacing all those parts it still does it.You did hit everything they though it was. Mark yes it must be heat related.Now remember this. I can bring this car up to temp take it out on the highway and do 120mph (and I do to test it) and not miss a beat with room to go sounding excellent.Drive it to long,over and hour ,or park it for 10 minutes and the problem reoccurs.I am still leaning to cats breaking down.Thinking now about hollowing them out. |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 346
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 5:51 pm: | |
I've never had vapor lock problems with DCNF or for that matter DCOE webers. In any event, I believe vapor lock mainly affects the starting sequence. Once the engine is running, cooler fuel from the tank should eliminate this particular problem. A bad tank of fuel is a long shot possibility.
Heat reduces the air density resulting in excess fuel for the available oxygen. If the plugs are a normal color, I'd be inclined to rule out a mixture problem, at least for carb cars. I concur with Mark in that a ristricted fuel filter should be most noticeable at high fuel flow rates, i.e. hard acceleration, and most likely when cold.
In the case of the carb car, can you confirm that the cold start system is fully off and the air filter housing flap is fully open? Are there any vacuum leaks?
For both carb and fuel injected cars, ignition system components are suspect. Some owners have reported good results after replacing coils or cleaning and tightening ignition system related wires. An ignition scope should be able to confirm whether spark voltages drop when the engine is hot.
Ignition advance is also suspect. You can check this with a timing light. The advance should be synchronized and smooth in both directions.
Distributor caps, ignition wires and extensions are also likely candidates. On a very humid or rainy night, in darkness, arcing can sometimes be detected. Check your distributor caps for cracks and carbon tracks and your rotors and distributor cap terminals for errosion. Check your plug wires for burning where they are pierced by the distributor cap screws, maybe cut off and inch and repierce, especially if they are of the carbon core variety.
|
Mark (Markg)
Member
Username: Markg
Post Number: 266
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 9:19 am: | |
Both the '78 and the '85 issues seem heat related; in a carb car of course first thing that comes to mind is carb boil-over (vapor lock if you will)which was common in some 911 Porsches. Since car runs fine cold I would dismiss the other common cause in carb cars of a blocked fuel filter (cannot keep up with flow demand at high RPM).
In an injected car of that year (more advance than earlier cars) hot start valves and warm up regulators come to mind.
Heat is the kiss of death in 2 areas: electronic compomants and fuel vaporization. Keep us posted! |
Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Member
Username: Eurocardoc
Post Number: 383
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 6:42 am: | |
The advance is electronically taken care of by the digiplex. |
Joe Craven (Rscapri2600)
New member
Username: Rscapri2600
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 2:05 am: | |
AS soon as I can get some time, I plan to drive the car until I can get it running really bad and take it to the shop and put it on a scope and so some trouble shooting. Hopefully, I'll be able to trace it to some common item, distributor, wires, etc. So far, the spark is looking good on all 8. Tomorrow, we're reading all the sensors to make sure the values are correctly sent to the ...if you can call it a computer. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
New member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 48
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 12:08 am: | |
Anyone check distributor advance? |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 345
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 8:36 pm: | |
It sounds like a heat issue to me. When shutting down an engine that has thoroughly warmed up, everything in the engine bay is subject to a heat soak. This heat soak will take a toll on engine bay electrical equipment. This includes the Digiplex system, sensors, coils, plug wire assemblies, and even electical grounds. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 584
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 7:57 pm: | |
If a bank is dropping out you will know.It wont just be loss power it will reallly run and sound like sh*t.I think I am leanig to the cat theory as my car does the same thing and it's carburated.
I dont know about your car for sure but on the 308 it is notmuncommon to get more exhaust flow from drivers side tips then the passenger side tips.It's all part of the goofy muffler and mixing.I dont see how a car can run so perfect and I mean perfect for an hour get parked for 10 minutes and then run so bad.I am going to try to track down some test pipes and remove my cats and try it.If not I'll get a muffler shop to match me up some flanges and weld me up a pair.Oh joy back under the 308.It's prime driving season. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 7:45 pm: | |
Joe--when the cylinders cut out, is it all the same bank or an erratic breaking- down across all eight cylinders? If it's the same one bank, it's something in that bank's ignition system--ranging from Digiplex unit to plugs.
I recently had one bank breaking down on me and it turned out to be a coil wire and flywheel pick-up sensor.
I've also heard that if a coil is breaking down it would get worse with high rpm.
By the way, i just got a set of original Cavis wires from Evans Automotive in ohio for $249, including the coil wires, boots, insulators, all together ready to install. |
Joe Craven (Rscapri2600)
New member
Username: Rscapri2600
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 7:13 pm: | |
I just spoke to my friend/mechanic and when I mentioned the plugged exhaust theory - he said that he had intended to mention that to me. The car has the original exhaust and he noticed that almost all the exhaust seems to come out of the tips on one side. He said that he looked in the other tip and all he could see is bulged metal. Is this normal in Mondial QV exhausts?
I wish I had spare caps that I can test too. We cleaned out the distributors and they look pretty good. When I saw the cost for new reproduction distributor caps at something like $275 each I decided to keep the old ones. They are normally replaced on tuneups on all my other cars. |
Grant Gilmour (Grantgilmour)
New member
Username: Grantgilmour
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 6:54 pm: | |
I had a similiar problem where the car (83 QV) would run fine until it was hot and then it would start to miss. One instance was a burned spark plug extender and the other instance was a worn out distributor cap. Runs fine now. |
Joe Craven (Rscapri2600)
New member
Username: Rscapri2600
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 6:25 pm: | |
Yes, the car seems to have most of the quoted 240HP and I've revved it a few times over 7000rpm under full throttle which indicates that there isn't any restrictions in the exhaust. However, I'm definitely going to consider that as a possibility that it becomes plugged after it gets really hot. I was surprised how much torque these QV have, and how flat the power curves are for such a small motor. Power is strong in the midrange and keeps building toward redline.
I've never had the car start missing until I finally shut it off for a short period. Now that I know the 30K service is completed, I'll take the car out for a multi hour drive and see what happens. I've been wondering if heat soak getting to an ignition component is part of the cause but I'll keep testing and replacing parts until I find what is wrong. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 583
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 6:01 pm: | |
I don think it's in the injection.But keep us posted.Does the car run out full bore full power before it acts up? |
Joe Craven (Rscapri2600)
New member
Username: Rscapri2600
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 5:16 pm: | |
Thanks for warm greeting. For my 2nd post, I'll introduce myself. I've been a long time auto enthusiast, starting when I bought my first car, a 1972 4 cylinder Capri. I always wanted a Ferrari, and 20 years later I bought my first Ferrari, 85 Mondial Cab. I've owned the car for a over 1 year but didn't drive it much since it needed the 30K service. I always intended to do it myself, but my other hobby and cars just never allowed me the luxury. One of my hobbies is that I race cars, a 1971 ITB Capri in SCCA and a 1977 VW Rabbit in NASA's GTI Cup. I also have a 1973 PS3 (ITB) Capri that I will be racing next year in Enduro racing (2 + hour races). I do almost all of my own work, engine rebuilds, chassis setup etc. I race with both SCCA and NASA in the San Francisco Regions and it just takes up so much time.
I hope nobody gets offended, but I think my limited K-Jetronic experience with the VW GTI cars will come in handy with this 85 Ferrari as the systems are almost identical. For example, the VW GTI has a full throttle switch that disconnects the O2 sensor output, and that puts the frequency valve duty cycle from 50% to 65% which richens the mixture. It doesn't appear that the Ferrari uses a similar setup, so I will have to investigate.
To answer your question, the mechanic working on my Ferrari is one of my racing buddies, and he owns a shop that specializes in German cars. He's a certified Bosch FI mechanic, and hopefully that is where my problems are located. He has all my old parts and I'm going to the shop tomorrow so hopefully we can figure this out. I can't wait to drive the car, it's a superb car.
I read in another thread where someone had a slighly different problem, and someone suggested that the crankshaft position sensors should be checked.
Thanks everyone |
Henryk (Henryk)
Member
Username: Henryk
Post Number: 291
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 5:08 pm: | |
I had this same problem on a Jaguar that I once owned. It turned out to be a plugged catalytic converter....could also be a plugged muffler? The heat seemed to expand the internal parts just enough to plug it up, to the degree that symptoms started occuring.
Good Luck |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1421
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 3:52 pm: | |
joe
make sure the o2 sensors are connect correctly. Are you sure they are the right ones. does the mech have the old ones, may try them again, see if this isolates the problem. Also check all your connections with coils etc |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 579
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 3:37 pm: | |
By the way congrats on your 1.st post.Wish I was more helpful.Let's see what everybody else thinks reading the symptoms. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 578
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 3:35 pm: | |
When it gets fixed tell me cause my 78 has been doing the same thing for 6 months now and nobody can figure it out.I dont think a bank is dropping off.Things it wasnt that I replaced,fuel pump,filter,ignition wires,fuse boxes,spark plugs,ignition coils (although they were bad).It runs great for like you said 45 minutes or so.Park it for 10. restart bang it does exactly as you are describing.I even insulated my fuel lines thinking vapor lock to no avail.My next step is changing the condensers and knocking the screen out of the bottom of the gas tank.After that I am going with block catalytic.I just had a 30k in April and my distributors were rebuilt then. You figure it out PLEASE email me.If I get a fix I'll let you know.It does help to know an injected 4v is doing it.I am going to start approaching it from what each have in common.The last time it did it my accelerator pedal was sticking also but I think it's unrelated. |
Joe Craven (Rscapri2600)
New member
Username: Rscapri2600
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 1:58 pm: | |
I have this problem with my 85 Mondial QV in that it loses power once the motor gets good and hot. It will run fine for 45 minutes and I'll park it for a few minutes. I start it back up and now it misses when the motor is under load and revved over apprx. 4000rpm. It gets worse as the car is driven and eventually the car has difficulty going 65mph on the freeway. It feels like an ignition miss and when I floor the throttle, I suspect only 4 cylinders are firing. When I back off the throttle, the motor smooths out and seems to run on all 8 cylinders. I just had the 30k service performed and the problem continues. The mechanic has replaced the O2 sensor, plugs and extenders. He installed a thermostat since it was missing (I wonder if the Previous owner had it removed). The plug wires look good but I might order a new set since they are probably original. The mechanic is telling me that the car is running lean when it is revved up to 4000rpm while hooked up to his emissions scope. Anybody have any ideas where I should look next. The mechanic says he is going to test the grounds next but the repair bill is running up fast. |