| Author |
Message |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 8:58 am: | |
Thanks Peter, sounds like a good article. Will have to read. Sounds like Mitchel will want to read it also. Could be similar problem. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 2:38 am: | |
You're pretty warm Magoo, almost there J!
The subtitle to the article reads:
"Ferrari water pumps are stout items that seldom require attention..."
Further into the article states majour weak points are bearings that fail from failing seals (the hot coolant degrades the bearing's seals and grease). |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 7:27 am: | |
Good morning! I spoke with Nick Scianna last night. I'm pulling the water pump off this weekend and am shipping on Monday or Tuesday so I cna have it back for next weekend. I'll be in Dallas on Monday-Thursday. I'll have to go get the new Forza, so I can check that article out. I'll keep you posted.... |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 1:24 am: | |
PETER, Do'nt keep us in suspense, is there something in there about overheating, binding bearings etc? |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 11:56 pm: | |
I just picked up Forza #31 this evening and water pumps are discussed in "Shop Talk". An interesting read. You may want to check it out since we're talking about pumps now. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 2:26 pm: | |
Mitchel,If you have made up your mind to replace the water pump call Nick Scianna@360-332-7779 he can ship you a pump overnight if you want and I'm sure he could give you some pointers on the installation |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 2:00 pm: | |
That was the first thing I had to replace. If you have a lift it's easy. Just remove the right rear wheel and inner fender well. You'll have no problem getting to it. No big deal. I did mine on a Sat afternoon and was back on the road in no time. I got mine from T. Rutlands. I bought an upgraded version. |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 12:30 pm: | |
OK everyone, based on our findings last night, my local mechanic and friends think we have a bad water pump on our hands. I will need to find out what parts I will need exactly (parts and gaskets)
to do the job correctly on my 84 308 QV. I have access to a wealth of knowledge, tools and a lift. Has anyone done this before by themselves? Is it terribly difficult? Thanks for your help! |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 8:32 am: | |
Craig, my car is a 79 308 GTS. I live in Florida where the weather is almost always hot. My car runs in the normal range and has never overheated with or without the A/C on. I could'nt ask for it to function any better. Nice talking with ya. |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 7:11 am: | |
Magoo, now that is a very good thought. I like how you are thinking. Last night, my friend Brian and I took it for a 20 minutes drive and the car ran great. It ran nice and cool up until the time I got back home and let it idle for about 5 minutes. That is when it seemed like a valve closed...or as you suggested a hose collapsed. I will be checking the hoses when I get home tonight.
Oh, and we replaced the foam under the front bonnet last night, and it made a huge difference. It kept the cabin a lot cooler too.
Thank you ALL for such great assistance. |
Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 6:57 am: | |
Magoo,
A lot of posts & info since I last looked here but I did want to say that I agreed with your last statement to me. My only concern is that it seems like a cooling system should not be operating at the limit where the thermostat is fully open and the only additional cooling capacity is the flow rate thru the system and the airflow thru the radiator. I don't have a 308 but I know they did improve the cooling of my 328 by changing the water pump, moving the A/C condensor and using two fans on the radiator. My temp corks back and forth from about 80C to 95C. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 10:01 pm: | |
When you changed or flushed the cooling system did you have the heater valve open, is it open part way? Air can trap itself in that area also. Make sure the heater control valve is open. Bleed both areas at the radiator and at the thermostat housing area. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 9:49 pm: | |
This reminds me of when I last changed my coolant. I had to keep bleeding the system down because when I would run the car and shut it down, the upper radiator hose on the drivers side would suck shut until I bled it again. After numerous trys It finally stopped. Run your engine for a while shut it down and check for collapsed hoses. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 9:42 pm: | |
Mitchel,You said you were going to check the timing but another thing comes to mind. Grasping at straws but then are'nt we all. How about a hose sucking shut and locking up the flow. I would check each hose especially those which connect the pipes together under the car and run to the radiator. Soft or even collapsing inside and sucking shut. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 9:25 pm: | |
Is the Evans/NPG stuff any thicker then regular water? how does the water pump handle it? since I see they sell pumps and whole systems, why?
-Ben
PS. My TR uses Dino oil as there is a great reason NOT to swtich to synthetic motor oil in TR engines (V-8s are different). |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 9:23 pm: | |
Well, here is the latest. I put some Water Wetter in, and got the 2 pieces of foam up front that surround the radiator put in. We took the car for a drive and it was running much cooler, in fact it was under 195 for 25 minutes. The I brought it home and let it idle for 5 minutes. It was doing ok, about 2 clicks above 195, then it went to the hash mark above 195, then all of a sudden it went almost to the top of the gauge and it started violently shoving coolant and steam and air out of the overflow. I mean it was coming out with incredible force. No coolant came from anywhere else, just the overflow hose. It acted as if some valve or coolant bypass or something opened or closed all of a sudden and made it get hot as hell then shoot that coolant and steam out so hard. I wonder if a cold start valve or something is put in backwards? What if something reaches a certain temp and it closes a coolant valve or whatever? Any ideas here? I am clueless again. Where should I look now? I'm going over the manual and spare parts manual trying to find a valve that can be the culprit. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 9:10 pm: | |
Tommy,
While I am happy with the water wetter I have come to learn that water and pressure are the two single most destructive things in internal combustion engine.
After spending two hours speaking with SR Engineer at Evans as well as speaking with a guy that owns a late model highly tweaked vette (650 HP + Nitrous)I believe that NPG+ cooling technology VS. ethyl glycol is like the choice between Syn oil and Dino oil.
NPG+ takes what water wetter is attemting to do to the next level.
Once you read there web site I think you will get a better understanding, Never having to worry about boil overs and blown hoses is great. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 9:04 pm: | |
Tommy,
While I am happy with the water wetter I have come to learn that water and pressure are the two single most destructive things in internal combustion engine.
After spending two hours speaking with SR Engineer at Evans as well as speaking with a guy that owns a late model highly tweaked vette (650 HP + Nitrous)I believe that NPG+ cooling technology VS. ethyl glycol is like the choice between Syn oil and Dino oil.
NPG+ takes what water wetter is attemting to do to the next level.
Once you read there web site I think you will get a better understanding, Never having to worry about boil overs and blown hoses is great. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 8:50 pm: | |
Ben,
NPG+ (new product but basicly same as NPG)is $25 a gallon and an evans supplied 7 pound radiator cap I think was $11. The 7 lb cap is only required so that you do not have to smell the stuff (seals the system).
The Ferrari requires no mods in order to switch but all water MUST be removed from system, heres how you do it:
Drain system (open heater valves) and open block drain, once you have gotten most of water (coolant)out tighten everything back up and add straight SIERRA brand coolant (sold at K mart and wal-mart, pep boys)and drive car for a couple of hours (run heaters). Now drain system completely again and refill with NPG+. Never ever add water!!!!. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 8:39 pm: | |
Paul, I have a question too: It seems that you have fixed your cooling problem. Why would you want to go to the extra effort and expense with the "no water" system? I am just wondering. I have heard of it and have read good reviews on it (or something similar) back in the early 90's. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 7:57 pm: | |
Paul,
After reading a few pages of the evans site, I have 2 questions for you (before you do this - I'm sure I'll have more after it's done)...
What's the cost for this ?
and
any modifications to the cooling sys necessary? (it says you can have a sealed system, but didn't say required it)
-Ben |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 7:45 pm: | |
Next week I will be cooling my 308 QV without water (no water at all) and no pressure in the system. Go to http://www.evanscooling.com
Boiling point is 370 degrees and freezing is -70 degrees (does not expand it contracts).
This is the way to go, who needs a temp guage. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 6:32 pm: | |
Hey Paul, Thanks, sounds like it works to me. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 6:27 pm: | |
Guy's water wetter will lower operating temperatures somewhat for the same reason that it removes hot spots in the engine, water wetter increases the ability water to cool by aiding in the transfer of heat and in the same sense aiding the cooling effect in the radiator by transfering that heat to the cooling fins.
Water wetter simply improves waters ability to
transfer heat.
READ BELOW!!!!!!!!!!!
Red Line WaterWetter® is designed to provide improved metal wetting and excellent corrosion inhibition when added to plain water or a glycol coolant. The most poorly maintained system in an automobile is usually the cooling system. Maintenance is quite simple and only required once each year, but most vehicle owners never routinely change the coolant or replenish the corrosion inhibitors which are required for trouble-free operation. Proper cooling system maintenance is very critical for most modern engines which utilize more aluminum. Aluminum has a very high corrosion potential, even higher than zinc, which is very widely used as a sacrificial anode. The only property which enables aluminum to be used in a cooling system is that it will form protective films under the proper conditions which will prevent the uncontrolled corrosive attack of acids or bases. Poor aluminum corrosion inhibition will cause the dissolution of aluminum at the heat rejection surfaces, weakening the cooling system walls and water pump casing and weakening the head gasket mating surfaces. These corrosion products will then form deposits on the lower temperature surfaces such as in radiator tubes which have very poor heat transfer properties, causing a significant reduction in the cooling ability of the entire system. Red Line WaterWetter® will provide the proper corrosion inhibition for all cooling system metals, including aluminum, cast iron, steel, copper, brass, and lead.
Water has twice the heat transfer capability when compared to 50% glycol antifreeze/coolant in water. Most passenger automobiles have a cooling system designed to reject sufficient heat under normal operating conditions using a 50/50 glycol solution in water. However, in racing applications, the use of water and WaterWetter® will enable the use of smaller radiator systems, which means less frontal drag, and it will also reduce cylinder head temperatures, even when compared to water alone, which means more spark advance may be used to improve engine torque.
BENEFIT SUMMARY
Doubles the wetting ability of water
Improves heat transfer
Reduces cylinder head temperatures
May allow more spark advance for increased torque
Reduces rust, corrosion and electrolysis of all metals
Provides long term corrosion protection
Cleans and lubricates water pump seals
Prevents foaming
Reduces cavitation corrosion
Complexes with hard water to reduce scale
COOLING SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
The conventional spark ignition gasoline engine is not a very efficient powerplant. A considerable amount of the available fuel energy must be rejected from the metal combustion chamber parts by the coolant and dispersed to the atmosphere through the radiator. This heat rejection is necessary in order to prevent thermal fatigue of the pistons, cylinder walls, and the cylinder head. Another problem is that the combustion chamber must be cooled enough to prevent preignition and detonation. The higher the combustion chamber temperatures, the higher the octane number required to prevent preignition and detonation. Since the octane of the available fuel is limited, increasing temperatures in the combustion chamber require retarding the spark timing which reduces the peak torque available. Higher inlet temperatures also reduce the density of the fuel/air mixture, reducing available torque further. For these reasons reducing the flow of heat to the coolant usually reduces the efficiency of the engine. Figure 1 shows a typical heat balance diagram for a spark ignition engine. This diagram demonstrates that the coolant in an automobile engine must absorb and reject through the radiator 2 to 3 times the amount of energy which is converted to brake power.
THERMAL PROPERTIES
Water has amazingly superior heat transfer properties compared to virtually any other liquid cooling medium - far superior to glycol-based coolants. As shown in Table 1, water has almost 2.5 times greater thermal conductivity compared to glycol coolants. Mixtures of glycol and water have nearly proportional improvement due to the addition of water. Most heat is transferred in a cooling system by convection from hot metal to a cooler liquid as in the engine block or from a hot liquid to cooler metal surfaces, as in the radiator. The convection coefficient of liquids in a tube is a complicated relationship between the thermal conductivity, viscosity of the liquid, and the tube diameter which determines the amount of turbulent flow. Since 50/50 glycol solution has about 4 times the viscosity and only 70% of the thermal conductivity of water, the thermal convection coefficient for a 50/50 glycol solution is approximately 50% of the coefficient for water. Water in the cooling system is capable of transferring twice as much heat out of the same system as compared to a 50/50 glycol coolant and water solution. In order for a 50/50 glycol mixture to reject as much heat as water (amount of heat rejected is independent of the coolant), the temperature differentials at the heat transfer surface must be twice as great, which means higher cylinder head temperatures.
Table 1
Thermal Properties of Cooling System Materials Material Density
g/cm3 Thermal
Conductivity
Watt/m · °C Thermal
Convection
Watt/m · °C Heat
Capacity
cal/g · °C Heat of
Vaporization
cal/g
Water 1.000 0.60 1829 1.000 539
Glycol 1.114 0.25 ------ 0.573 226
50/50 1.059 0.41 897 0.836 374
Aluminum 2.70 155 0.225
Cast Iron 7.25 58 0.119
Copper 8.93 384 0.093
Brass 8.40 113 0.091
Ceramics 1 - 10
Air .0013 .026 0.240
HEAT TRANSFER
Red Line WaterWetter® can reduce cooling system temperatures compared to glycol solutions and even plain water. Water has excellent heat transfer properties in its liquid state, but very high surface tension makes it difficult to release water vapor from the metal surface. Under heavy load conditions, much of the heat in the cylinder head is transferred by localized boiling at hot spots, even though the bulk of the cooling solution is below the boiling point. Red Line's unique WaterWetter® reduces the surface tension of water by a factor of two, which means that much smaller vapor bubbles will be formed. Vapor bubbles on the metal surface create an insulating layer which impedes heat transfer. Releasing these vapor bubbles from the metal surface can improve the heat transfer properties in this localized boiling region by as much as 15% as shown in Figure 2. This figure demonstrates the removal of heat from an aluminum bar at 304°F by quenching the bar in different coolants at 214°F under 15 psi pressure. Compare the time required to reduce the temperature of the aluminum to 250°F, or the boiling point of water at 15 psi. WaterWetter® required 3.2 seconds, water alone 3.7 sec, 50/50 glycol in water required 10.2 sec, and 100% glycol required 21 sec. Water alone required 15% longer, 50/50 glycol 220% longer, and 100% glycol required 550% longer.
Performance Properties of Coolants
Cooling System Fluid Stabilized Temperature
50% Glycol/ 50% Water 228°F
50/50 with WaterWetter 220°F
Water 220°F
Water with WaterWetter 202°F
DYNO TEST RESULTS
Dynomometer tests performed by Malcolm Garrett Racing Engines showed significant improvements in coolant temperatures using WaterWetter. These tests were performed with a Chevrolet 350 V-8 with a cast iron block and aluminum cylinder heads. The thermostat temperature was 160°F. The engine operated at 7200 rpm for three hours and the stabilized cooling system temperature was recorded and tabulated below:
These numbers are similar to the temperatures recorded in track use and heavy-duty street use.
COOLANT EFFECTS ON PERFORMANCE
Under moderate load conditions, each percent glycol raises cylinder head temperatures by 1°F. 50% glycol raises head temperatures by 45°F. This increase in temperature will raise the octane required for trace knock levels by typically 3.5 octane numbers. A car equipped with a knock sensor will retard the timing to compensate for the increase in octane requirement by approximately 5°, which will reduce the maximum brake torque by about 2.1%. Racing vehicles not equipped with knock sensors can advance timing for increased torque.
BOILING POINT ELEVATION
Red Line WaterWetter® does not significantly increase the boiling point of water; however, increasing pressure will raise the boiling point. The boiling point of water treated with Red Line using a 15 psi cap is 250°F compared to 265°F at 15 psi for 50% glycol. Increasing the pressure by 50% to 23 psi will increase the boiling point of water to 265°F. Because of the doubling of the ability of the radiator to transfer heat, boilover using Red Line treated water is not a problem as long as the engine is circulating coolant through the head and the fan is circulating air. Sudden shutdown after very hard driving may cause boilover.
SAE 880266 Water +
Red Line 50% Glycol 70% Glycol
Increase in Cylinder
Head Temperature Baseline +45°F +65°F
Increase in Octane
(RON) Requirement Baseline +3.5 +5.0
Change in Spark Timing
for Trace Knock Baseline -5.2° -7.5°
Change in Torque Baseline -2.1% -3.1%
FREEZING POINT DEPRESSION
Red Line WaterWetter® does not significantly reduce the freezing point of water. If the vehicle will see freezing temperatures, an antifreeze must be used. Water expands approximately 9% upon freezing which can cause severe engine damage. Even in summertime, the use of air-conditioning can blow freezing air through the heater and cause freezing of the heater core unless approximately 20% antifreeze is used.
CORROSION PROTECTION
Modern automotive engines now use aluminum for heads, radiators, water pump housings, and nearly all hose fittings. These engines require significantly greater corrosion protection than their cast iron counterparts of the past. Aluminum is such an electroactive metal that it requires an impenetrable corrosion inhibitor film to prevent rapid corrosion. Acid neutralization capability is very important. Coolant which has been left in a cooling system for several years has probably become acidic from the oxidation of the glycol to acids. Also, keeping the glycol concentration in the cooling system below 50% will help stability.
Red Line also provides excellent protection from cavitation erosion in the water pump and cylinder head. Localized boiling in the cylinder head forms vapor bubbles which collapse when they come in contact with cooler liquids. This collapse creates tremendous shock waves which removes the inhibitor film from the aluminum surface and can cause catastrophic erosion of the aluminum if the inhibitor does not reform the film quickly. Another problem created by cavitation erosion is the deposition of the removed aluminum as a salt with poor heat transfer properties in the lower temperature radiator tubes. Red Line prevents this corrosion through effective film formation and smaller vapor bubble formation, which has a less violent collapse. Foam control is equally important since entrained air will cause cavitation erosion due to the collapse of foam bubbles. Red Line provides excellent control of foam with water alone and glycol solutions.
Most coolants additives on the market provide only protection for iron and perhaps moderate protection for aluminum. The milky soluble oil types can actually impede heat transfer by wetting the metal surface with oil and this oil can swell and soften rubber coolant hoses. Table 3 shows the many tests which the Red Line formula will satisfy and how it compares to a standard antifreeze.
TABLE 3
Comparison of Corrosion Inhibition Properties
PROPERTY RED LINE SPEC COOLANT A
pH 8.6 7.5 - 11 9.8
Boiling Point @ 15 psig 250°F 265°F (50%)
Freezing Point 31°F -35°F(50%) -35°F
Foaming Height, ml 75 150 50
Color Pink green
Ash, % 0.5 5, max 1
Surface Tension @ 100°C,
Dynes/cm2 28.3 58.9 (water)
ASTM D4340 Heat Transfer
Corrosion Test, Aluminum
Weight loss, mg/cm2/wk 0.21 1 max 0.45
ASTM D1384 Corrosion,
Weight loss, mg/specimen
Copper 1 10 max 5
Solder 6 30 7
Brass 2 10 5
Steel 1 10 6
Cast Iron 0 10 3
Aluminum 16 30 30
SLIPPERINESS OF COOLANTS
Red Line WaterWetter® does not alter the frictional property of tire rubber and water on a pavement surface. The chart below shows the static and dynamic friction of pavement wetted with different coolant types. Higher friction indicates less slipperiness. The dynamic friction indicates the increase in slipping which occurs after the tire begins to break loose. Water and water with WaterWetter® reduce the friction relative to dry pavement about 50%, but it is much less than the reduction in friction caused by ethylene glycol and even more slippery is propylene glycol.
USE DIRECTIONS
One 12 ounce bottle treats 12-16 quarts of water or a 50% ethylene or propylene glycol solution. In smaller cooling systems, use 4-5 caps per quart. Add directly through the cooling system fill cap into the radiator or into the overflow tank. Do not open a cooling system while hot. For best protection for aluminum, replenish or replace every 15,000 miles. The anti-scaling ingredients in Red Line WaterWetter allow its use with ordinary tap water. However, using with distilled or deionized water will accomplish some scale removal in the cylinder head area. For maximum temperature reductions use the most water and the least antifreeze possible to prevent freezing in your climate. Even in summertime the use of air-conditioning can blow freezing air through the heater and cause freezing of the heater core unless approximately 20% antifreeze is used. Red Line WaterWetter is available in 12 ounce containers.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 5:52 pm: | |
Craig, I agree with the part where it is not a cure all. But once That thermostat is open the engine is running like there was no thermostat in the car until the temp drops below 195 and it begins to close again. There are times the temp in traffic conditions or with the A/C or when the temp will climb above the 195 mark and the engine will run in that temp range. This being the norm each time you drive the vehicle is not a uncommon thing to happen. What Tom and I are saying is that we noticed a definite lowering of coolant temps. from the norm, after using WATER WETTER. |
Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 5:34 pm: | |
Magoo,
What you're saying is true, but an engine with a 195F thermostat should regulate to 195F and not above that. Theoretically, the cooling system - radiators & fans and thermostat- should be able to maintain the 195F temp by closing off the thermostat if it needs to be hotter or additional flow thru the radiator and/or fans if it needs to be cooler. All of these devices are not exact switches at a certain temperature -- Thermostats are variable flow(partially open) thru the temperature range as well as opening and closing at different temperatures. The fans come on and turn off at different temperatures as well. It would be unusual to design the system so it doesn't have extra cooling capacity otherwise it would overheat at times. In the situation as you state, there would be no cooling capacity left (except for additional heat removal thru the radiator maybe). In that situation you would be correct to expect the water wetter to show a lower temperature, but hopefully your car isn't running that way or something else would be wrong. Seeing a temperature drop could also mean better or more airflow thru the radiator, or different air temp or different relative humidity. All of these could change the heat transferred from the radiator adding to the variables that could lower the operating temperature.
Something else to think about...
A thermostat rated at 195F probably isn't fully open at 195F but is at say 80% of max flow at that temperature -- I'm not sure what the exact spec would be but it would seem that a margin of safety would be necessary as well as for ease of manufacture.
Don't misunderstand me. I believe the water wetter will help even out the temperature in the engine and lessen the hot spots -- this has to be better for the engine(I'll be putting mine in this weekend). I just don't believe it's a cure all for cars that overheat for other possibly serious reasons. These cars may need some other work done -- all 3L engines don't seem to overheat. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 5:17 pm: | |
I was wondering that too. I thought the water temp. controlled the thermostat (open or closed) and not the other way around and the radiator, fans etc. controlled the water temp. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 5:13 pm: | |
There are several external factors that must taken into consideration beyond the the thermostat:
1)Outside air temp and road temp (heat off the roadway in stop and go traffic can be 30 degrees higher then air temp).
2)airflow through the Radiator (city or highway)
3)AC on (with AC on the condenser core temp range is somewhere in the 200 degree range, your fans are blowing 200 degree air through the radiator.)
4)the Ferrari radiator is a flat fin design and was designed for high speed air flow making it a very inefficient around town radiator.
On a 90+ degree day my city driving temp (AC on)will run anywhere from 200 to 225, yet on the open highway my temp will run at 180 to 195.
On a 90+ degree day my car with AC on will idle for hours and never get above 225 degrees well within the design parameters.
NORMAL MAXIMUM OPERATING TEMPERATURE FOR THE FERRARI 308 QV is 240 DEGREES and again a hotter running car creates more horsepower.
Ferrari gauges (water and oil temp) have one thing in common both outside normal operating temps are the last ones on the dial(water 250 and oil 280)and until you get to those #'s you are in the green and witin normal operating specifications. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 3:11 pm: | |
Graig, is'nt a true if you have a 195degree thermostat in the engine and the engine runs at 212 degrees then the thermostat is already fully open at that point so why could'nt you see a drop back toward the 195 degree mark if the product lowered the temperature. The guage tells the water temp. |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 11:41 am: | |
Hmm timing. You know I did not think of that at all. I will check that for sure. I am hoping to find out how to test the temp gauge. Does anyone know on a QV if the sensor is run with resistance? I will be getting the water wetter, just to see if it makes any difference. It drove beautifully last night and I want more!! But I will not jeopardize the car, I'll wait until it is 100%. I'll keep you all posted.
I wanted to mention that I would feel almost naked without this site. You guys rule. |
Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 11:06 am: | |
I agree with Paul on this and have a further comment on "Water Wetter". Since your car's coolant temperature is controlled by the thermostat, it is unlikely that you would see any difference in the temp gauge from water wetter. This product acts at the boundary between the coolant and the aluminum to help cool areas better by increasing the heat conduction of the coolant. Since your thermostat regulates the engine coolant temperature (within limits), all of us using it (me included) will just have to have faith that the product lives up to its claims. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 10:55 am: | |
Thanks, Paul. I got the 1.1 and the 0.9 bar backwards. I just know I was given the wrong one. Keep up the research. You have been a big help to 4V 308 owners |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 9:30 am: | |
You knowledgeable Ferrari guys can kick my butt on this if I'm wrong but I know many times on American cars I overlooked retarted timing, and timing in general, as a problem with overheating and starting. Mitchel have you checked that? And you are correct, Nick is a very valuable person and sponser to have on this site and nice enough to help out us with our tech. questions. |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 9:20 am: | |
The Ferrari 308 workshop manual makes it clear that maximum operating temperature is 240 degrees (F) and that maximum water pressure is .9 bar (do not install a 1.1 bar radiator cap.and do not change to a 160 degree thermostat).
The 1st hash mark is 168 degrees (F) and the second hash mark is 223 degrees (F).
The stock 308 thermostat does not completely open (full flow) until water temperature reaches 207 degrees (F). FYI: it begins to open at 167 (F).
If your car approaches the 250 degree mark then you have a problem but until that happens you are trying to fix a cooling problem you don't have.
If your car is not starting when it is at or above 195 degrees the cooling system is not the problem.
The FACT is that a car that runs hotter develops more horsepower and has reduced internal friction.
Ferrari has designed these cars to generate horsepower and part of that design is both water and oil temperature (210 degrees (F)).
As for Water wetter it main goal is to remove hot spots from the cylinder sleeves and head. |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 8:16 am: | |
Good morning my friends. OK I did some homework last night. We replaced the thermostat to a 160 degree on Sunday then drove it immediately, and saw no difference. THEN I drove the car last night for about 20 minutes, I let it warm up, then drove her as hard as I usually do. It did run cooler than usual. I noticed that the gauge was 1mm (I call it a click) above the 195 hash mark. It did not go any higher until I got back to my house and let it idle for about 3 minutes while I shot the pyrometer all over the engine and radiator. After 3-4 minutes the gauge went 5 clicks or 1 total hash mark up. 3/4 of the way to the highest point on the gauge. Here were my Raytek Pyrometer results WHEN the car was idling and the gauge read approximately 220 degrees:
Thermostat housing: 162 F
Pipe leading to thermostat housing: 165 F
Radiator cap on overflow tank: 159 F
Middle of Overflow tank on seam: 199 F
Bottom of overflow tank: 175 F
Thermo switch on overflow tank: 169 F
rear Valve cover: 185 F
Thermo switch on radiator: 165 F
Middle of top part of rad: 145 F
Top of rad by hose: 196 F
6 inches below hose on rad: 190 F
Outside of water pump from right rear inner fender: 170 F
Can you see a pattern here? My hypothesis is this: I think my temp sending unit or gauge is not accurate. Perhaps the resistance in the sending unit is bad or off. I think the car's computer believes the gauge and is leaning out the fuel, thus making it difficult to start when it is hot or directly after I shut it off. Monty and I have also noticed that AS SOON AS the car "cools" off and the gauge reads 195 or below, it will crank right up as if nothing was wrong. If I try to crank it while the gauge is reading above 195 it is difficult to start. IS THIS A RELATED ISSUE? Has anyone heard of this before? I will be calling Nick Scianna back and telling him what I found. I spoke with Nick for about an hour last night, and let me tell you, he is one of the nicest, most knowledgable Ferrari nut I have ever met. I sure do appreciate Nick very much, as much as I appreciate you guys and Rob Lay for this site. You guys rule. Let me know what you think! |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 5:34 am: | |
You are trying to mask an underlying problem that is not going to go away with some magic coolant. Until you find the REAL problem it is still going to run hot. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 11:31 pm: | |
Just delete the antifreeze for the summer only. 100% distilled water plus 1 or 2 bottles of water wetter will absorb much more heat then water plus antifreeze. Put the antifreeze back in in the winter and I can't imagine you having any pump bearing problems. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 9:38 pm: | |
Bret, my 308 does not run hot but I thought I would try the water wetter and it definetly knocks the temp down. I used 2 bottles after reading the directions. In my case about 5 to 8 degrees cooler. I could see the diff. and it has stayed that way since I put it in about 60 days ago. Good stuff. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 8:10 pm: | |
Yeah that is my concern with leaning out the antifreeze mixture (right now I am still running 50/50 even though it's summer). The antifreeze lubricates the bearings and mechanicals of the waterpump or at least it does in all other cars that I know about, but this is Ferrari so...My car is starting to run hotter so I would like to either thing out my mixture some or I was wondering what this water wetter stuff you guys talk about is? |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 7:24 pm: | |
Mitchel, What a brain blaster. I never thought the bearing in the water pump would be "weak," but it may be binding. And it may be one of the peculiarities of this pump. If Nick said that, believe me, it's a possibility and he's probably seen it before. I wonder though why you keep having to bleed the air out of the system? It does sound like youre getting a compression leak from somewhere. |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 1:26 pm: | |
Hey Warren, I had the car at Bill Pollards place and we specifically checked to see if there was any exhaust gases or anything out of the norm in my coolant. We found nothing in the coolant. He
thought the head gasket was fine, and I did drive it 1000 miles to Atlanta. I also checked my oil last night and there is no water in the oil, or on my oil cap. I just spoke with Nick Scianna and he suggested that I check my plugs first. He also said the bearing can be weak in my water pump. I still don't have a clue yet. I'm taking pyrometer readings tonight and that will conclude that its not my temp gauge. When the car is being driven, it stays about 1mm above 195, but when stopped, the temp goes up quickly, it went to the hash mark before the 240 mark. We bled more air out of the system this weekend...how is the air getting in there?? I wonder if my fans are on backwards or something? I've got some research to do....I'll keep you all posted. |
Gerrit Visser (Gerritv)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 11:21 am: | |
I recommend checking that the radiator fans actually work (not sluggish) and that they are turning in the right direction. One of mine was sluggish and the other ran backwards, resulting in overheating in town. Of course on the highway your car should not overheat regardless of the cooling fans. |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 8:25 am: | |
The radiator was probably replaced by someone thinking that might be the problem. I do'nt think your water pump is weak. Have you tested the cooling system for blow by getting into the coolant if it were to be a head gasket. Have you checked your oil for evidence of water beads on the stick or around the seal of your oil filler cap to see if there is any condensation build up. Unfortunately it sounds like you may be at the point that Herb suggested. Something internal. |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 6:48 am: | |
Hey guys, I got home too late last night to run the car and use the pyrometer to check to see if the gauge if off or not. BUT I did talk to a previous owner and she said the car always ran hot. Even if that is true, I do not like cars that run hot and there must be a reason for this car to run hot. She said it got a new radiator several years ago, I wish I knew why it was replaced. SO now until I can verify the gauge, I can only assume that either the sending unit or gauge is bad, or I have a blown head gasket or the radiator is clogged or my water pump is weak. I don't have a clue. I will be giving in soon and taking it to my mechanic because I want to drive the car already. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 7:44 pm: | |
right over by the thermostat. left of the intake manifold. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 6:56 pm: | |
Where's the bleeder on the engine? |
Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 4:11 pm: | |
Herb, I believe your right, those seals should have minor impact if any. They are not on my 308 and on 90 degree days here in Fla. running the A/C my car runs right around 195 give or take a couple degrees. But I gotta say Tom is correct Re: the water wetter it will knock your temp. down. |
Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 3:38 pm: | |
The foam seals will probably not help that much. I believe you have a more serious problem such as a radiator stopped up or a head gasket failure. The foam seals on my car are non existant and my car runs cool as a Cucumber under all conditions. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 3:29 pm: | |
Evidentally that foam seal helps the hood vent the heat better. Going to pure water really helps. Adding antifreeze just reduces water's thermal capacity. Just remember to add it back before winter.
By the way, did you bleed BOTH end's of the car?
There's a bleeder on top of the engine. Since your a VW guy too, order the 180 degree fan switch from Neuspeed. It's about 4-6 degrees cooler then stock. Also, hook up the fans so both come on at the same time, all the time. (usually only one comes on until the a/c is used). |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 1:42 pm: | |
Hey Tom, yes, in fact just this past Saturday I was at Ferrari of Atlanta and I got the 2 foam pieces that are missing. Do you think that will have a large impact? I have not put the seals on yet, but will do so this week. Now you have me thinking...I wonder if this was the whole problem the whole time? We checked just about every part of my cooling system, and it all is in working order. I'm going to get the Water Wetter tomorrow at lunch and will get my foam seals on this week. I betcha that is what is contributing to the problem, HUH? |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 10:29 am: | |
Make sure your cap has "1.1 bar" on it. I bought a "correct" cap from a well known parts distributer (not in the southeast) only to find it was 0.9 bar.
Another BIG help is run pure distilled water in the summer. I was afraid to do this (boil-over)but I tried it with water wetter and it now runs approx. 10 degrees cooler. You have enough psi in the system to raise the boiling point so don't worry about it.
Also is the foam that seals off the radiator area from the spare tire well intact? Most of these cars no longer have this. If yours is missing you should replace it.
Try these things first and then see what your temp reads. |
Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 7:42 am: | |
OK everyone. I think I'm onto something here. See my hot start issue below in another post. I have also been dealing with a cooling issue with my 308..big surprise huh? After letting it warm up correctly, I will drive it nice and smooth, but hard. After 20 or so minutes, the water temp gauge slowly creeps up to 195 degree hash mark, and slowly but surely goes above the mark, then even further. By the time I get the car back to my house, it is peeing a stream of coolant out of the overflow resevior. I have changed the thermostat and flushed the system yeterday, we also bled a LOT fo air out of the system. We also put a correct radiator cap on too. OK, once the car is hot, the car will not start. If I allow the car to cool off, and once the temp gauge reads BELOW 195 degrees the car starts right up.
NOW, this leads me to believe that the car was A) over filled with coolant, so it comes out of the overflow until the cars desired quantity. B) that the car is NOT really overheating c) that the temp gauge is NOT accurate D) that the cars computer thinks the car is as hot as the gauge says it is, and is LEANING out the fuel enough that it cannot start the car. Does this make any sense to you guys?? Would a faulty temp gauge sending unit cause this? Talk amongst yahselves...discuss!
I went and borrowed a Raytek pyrometer with a laser. I will collect different readings and compare the values to what the gauge is reading. Also, does the gauge take its reading from the temp switch on the bottom of my overflow tank? Thank you all very much, and I am hoping to get my issue worked out so I can drive the car outside my neighborhood! |
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