| Author |
Message |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 2:11 am: | |
Steve, yes I believe there are issues of the O.M. for each model year, but this one (even though dated XXX/74) is the correct one for my car as it is written on the cover: "Dino 308 GT4 North American Version 1975". The relay is an 87/87 type and is (was) located right next to the signal relay.
Speaking of O.M.'s, Gerrit, is your O.M. cover red with a yellow prancing horse on it? It may be that all of my wires were hooked up then, but I'm sure there will be some left-over when I do install those Crane units.
I never worried about this before and I still don't, but could never really figure this one out. Obviously, whoever had their hands on this car before obviously did something like this to bring it up to the setup of these later cars that the both of you mention. At least this is the conclusion I come to for now. |
Gerrit Visser (Gerritv)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 10:16 pm: | |
I'll try to take some photos on Sunday of the 'dangling' wires. My owners manual is 124/76 although in many respects the car is a 1975 production.
Peter, if all the wires are hooked up, so much the better from an originality point of view. It makes no difference since the relay is not there to bypass the ballast resistors on starting. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 8:16 pm: | |
Peter R. -- Shouldn't be a problem IMHO as your '75 w/XR700s (and the ballast resistor always in series with the coil primary winding) will be identical ignition-wise to a '78~'79 w/XR700s installed -- and those seem to work OK. My 308GT4 WSM doesn't show any references to "starter relay" stuff (but I have the later 110/75 WSM and they may have cleaned things up by then) -- is there a XXX/75 OM for your GT4? |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 2:01 pm: | |
Gerrit, I had no hanging wires near my coils, everything was hooked up.
Steve, its shown in my Owner's Manual (100/74), and the decal near the panel lists one there.
Do you think this will be a problem when I come time to hook up my XR700's? |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 12:43 pm: | |
Paul S. -- Can you please report if the "new" fuseblocks are or are not made from the same plastic material as your "old" ones? I'm just curious if the plastic has perhaps been updated to a more modern high-temp/creep resistant material.
Peter R. -- I had never heard of a 308 �starter relay� before this -- the stock US �78 308 schematics don�t show any such thing. I�d guess is that if it was originally used to bypass the ballast resistors during cranking on early 308s (as per Gerrit�s comments) that they ultimately decided it was just more trouble/cost than real benefit, and it was removed from the design of the later carbed cars -- just a guess...
Charles -- the difficulty of changing over to a spade terminal type fuseblock set-up is in creating the power distribution networks on both the input and output sides of the fuseblocks without looking like a rats nest IMHO. If you do go this route, I'd strongly suggest that you try to make where/how the wires come in and go out look exactly like the stock situation for the next poor bastard who has to dig into an unexpected electrical gremlin. |
Gerrit Visser (Gerritv)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 6:33 am: | |
Peter, my Euro GT4 (#11966) has had the starter relay removed as well. If you look at the wiring near your ign coils, there should be a bunch of unused ones hanging there. The relay bypassed the ballast resistors during start. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 2:12 am: | |
Would this have anything to do with the fact that my GT4 has no starter relay? It always puzzled the hell out of me that there isn't one there in the socket. The car always started, never faultered, so never persued it further. All of my relays and fuses still function without problems, so I never poked around the back of the relay panel for fear of f---ing things up permanently (if it ain't broke...).
Any thoughts about this, does anybody know of some kind of mod that would ditch the relay? Steve, do you have an idea why this is? |
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 10:17 pm: | |
I just received two brand new fuse blocks from Nick, so that I can replace my old loose rivet blocks. I think Nick has stocked a few pairs.
I am thinking about having all rivet connections soldered or brazed. |
Peter Boray (Gts308qv)
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 9:50 pm: | |
Don't shoot me, but I am told a VOLVO 240 series fuse box will fit with minor modification and solves a lot of the melting/bad contact problems the early GT4 and GTB/S cars had. It is Bosch and has the same number of fuse slots, and cheap from any 'pick a part' or Volvo dismantler. |
Charles Byrd (Vogel)
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 4:28 pm: | |
I am trying to decide on whether to do the bus bar or just customize a newer type fusebox and redo both boxes with a better designed one.
Charles |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 9:54 am: | |
Thank you very much for the kind words Charles. IMHO:
1. This is a design flaw that every 308 of your vintage suffers from to some degree (and adding a "hot" ignition doesn't help matters -- Crane, EM, etc., should take this into account for this application but don't), and
2. This is a rare case where making a modification (adding the busbar) has less long-term risk than not making a modification. (Although adding the busbar is not an easy task since these are large, thermally-conductive structures that are difficult to heat up to soldering temp without damaging the nearby plastic.)
If I was servicing early 308s for a living, it's a modification that I'd insist my customers get (even on a bone-stock car) for their own good. |
Charles Byrd (Vogel)
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 8:11 am: | |
Steve,
Wonderful advice. I tried to start the car, nothing, then I jumpered the connections like you suggested, and she fired up as pretty as you please. I un-jumpered it, nothing, jumpered it, everything. I will make the permenant fixes this weekend, but I wanted to let you know that I greatly appreciate your help, and would like to meet you one day to shake your hand.
Charles |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 3:43 pm: | |
No upstream "hidden" stuff that I know of -- the azure wire should go +12V with the key "on". |
Charles Byrd (Vogel)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 3:09 pm: | |
Thanks Steve, I will try those things tonight or tomorrow. I am just wondering though, are there any other points of failure in the electrical system, such as hidden relays, that I might also check?
Charles |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 3:02 pm: | |
Charles -- based on that description (the starter function is OK), I'm 99% sure that your problem lies in the (flaky) power distribution hardware built-in to the fuseblock itself on the backside (when the plastic gets hot it softens and the internal riveted connections get loose). The three wires that come into the tops of fuses #1 (yellow), #2 (azure), and #3 (yellow with black) should all be well-connected electrically by the fuseblock. I'll describe this for a '78 B/S, but I'm fairly sure your '77 is very similar, if not identical -- the main +12V power comes down the large azure (bluish) wire hooked to the top of fuse #2. Power from this azure wire is supplied to the yellow wire coming off the top of fuse #1 to go to the ign. coils. Power from the azure wire also should be passing down thru fuses #1, #2, and #3 to run the various stuff that you've already noticed is not working (brake lights, windows, fuel pump, etc.). As an experiment, the next time you have the problem you could try connecting the azure wire to the yellow wire with a male-male spade (which powers the ignition directly) -- the fuel pump (brake lights, etc) won't run, but the engine should still start and run for a few moments (or at least try to start). You can try soldering some busbar to interconnect the spade terminals at the top of fuse positions #1, #2, and #3 and "tightening up" the rivets to salvage your old fuseblock. Even if you get a new fuseblock, I'd still add the busbar to help reduce the heating at the rivet joints. (I had this same problem after installing Crane XR3000s which puts more current thru the rivet interconnections between the top of fuse #2 to the top of fuse #1.) |
Charles Byrd (Vogel)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 1:06 pm: | |
Steve,
Thanks for responding. I'll give you what happened yesterday for a good example. I turned on the ignition, let it prime the carbs. Then it cranked perfectly. Then, I drove it around for about 20 minutes, not hard driving, just enjoying the look on people's faces, when it just shut down as though I turned off the ignition. The starter will turn over fine, but it sounds as if no fire is getting to the engine, the fuel pump will not whine, the windows will not go up or down, the brake lights do not work, the radio has no power, and it was still in this condition this morning when I tried to crank it again. It is getting power to the starter fine, and gas, I can smell it, but no fire to the engine, and of course the other lack of electricity to the above mentioned systems.
Thanks,
Charles |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 12:50 pm: | |
Charles -- do you mean:
1) from an engine running state, the engine will just mysteriously stop, and
2) if you try to restart, the starter motor will not crank at all? (or does the starter spin the flywheel, but the engine will not fire/start?) |
Charles Byrd (Vogel)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 12:37 pm: | |
I am new to owning a Ferrari, it has been a dream for a long time as I am sure it is with everyone. I bought this car not long ago and it has a great maintenance record and such, but from time to time it will shut off and not crank again for hours. I have checked all the fuses and tried to check all the relays and they seem fine. The systems effected are: Ignition, Fuel pump, brake lights, windows, radio. If anyone has a suggestion it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks. |
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