| Author | Message | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2179 Registered: 2-2001 |
ferrari IMHO put that in their books to cover their butt. Oil consumption in that quantity will eventually foul plugs as well as render the catalytic converter inop. Ever notice how many 308s have converter problems? | ||
| Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
New member Username: Tommya Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2002 |
Why are we all so concerned with the material for the valve stem seals ??? Ferrari documents that it's normal for a broken in engine to have excessive oil consumption 1-2 quart per 600 miles. This is alot of oil but I guess the guides really need alot of lube. Any suggestions ?? | ||
| Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member Username: 350hpmondial Post Number: 182 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ben You da man. Can you post a pic of your Valve Spring Tool when your done? | ||
| Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
New member Username: Tommya Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2002 |
The OEM for the Ferrari valve stem seals is CORTECO. Their stem seal are of N B R material (nitro). Their part # 12006142. The seal that's made of VITON will fit Ferrari & BMW. The aplication is for 7 & 5 series 95 BMW including M5 & V12. Corteco's part #12015602-C. Please note that these seals are NOT available in the U S at the present time. Corteco is just starting their marketing. We might see it in the near future since they can sell these also to BMW part suppliers. Their price is very low. | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have a torch,welder,lathe and mill. I planned on making my own tool after I got the valve covers off. | ||
| stacy o'blenes (Stacy)
Junior Member Username: Stacy Post Number: 59 Registered: 8-2001 |
Ben, What kind of tool/technique do you plan to use to compress the springs? | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 360 Registered: 4-2001 |
Arlie, I don't have a problem with my seals... Not since I got "The Club" | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 68 Registered: 8-2001 |
A bit of insite: 4Vseals The guides that Nick gets me for the ported heads have a special valve end design, and the seals that are probably the ones in question. The guide "chimney" (as it is called) is .387 diameter, and is grooved to assist retaining the seals. I do not know the BMW model they are from though. I am sure he will tell you if you ask. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 595 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ill see if I can get the part number but I may be asking too much. I did notice that the lip seal around the stem was smaller than the stem but they are rubber and they did have the spring. The originals were teflon so they had to be the stem size to fit. | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 67 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sounds like the ones I have but, I compared them to my original seals and they are smaller. BMW said all the seals for the M5 are the same, I made him look up all the years, and they were right. The original seals must not fit tightly, since the bmw seal is smaller. These BMW seals have a spring around the seal to help it seal. Maybe you can get a part number, it would be great to share it with everyone here. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 594 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ben, I got mine from a ferrari part supplier. At the time I was picking up my gaskets (which cost a fortune) I was told the seals were from a 85 M5. I didnt get them from the BMW dealer. I dont want to send anyone down the wrong path, thats just what I was told. You may be better off matching one up with your original. One thing is for sure, mine are not ferrari seals. Mine are green viton rubber with a steel shell that is rubber lined to grip the guide. They were a direct fit. Hope that helps. If it comes down to it, I can get some from this guy and ship them to you or I can connect you right to him. We are in Toronto Canada. | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2001 |
By the way im not sure the seals are the right one. Are you guys sure its for a M5 BMW? they seem a little small | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2088 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hans, its catch-20. Sure you get better lubrication, but at the expense of worse emissions and increased oil consumption. Can also foul the plugs easily (hotter plugs are a band-aid). Horsefly, that just simply cracked me up...  | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 411 Registered: 5-2001 |
The seals aren't perfect. They always let some fish oil ooze out of their mouths. Seriously, valve seals work by sliding on a film of oil. Thus the entire valve stem ends up with a very thin oil film. That film should be sufficient for valve guide lubrication. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 283 Registered: 4-2002 |
This is slightly off topic: If your valve guides are just slightly 'iffy', wouldn't it be better to let some oil leak down them to reduce further wear? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 290 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dave, the seals use to smoke in my car also. But worse than the cigarettes were the fish heads and the water that they left on the seats. Of course they were handy for honking the old-timey bulb horn mounted just outside the passenger window. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 355 Registered: 4-2001 |
Hi Ben, I ran that part number and it was for a set of 12.... Did you buy 2 sets, or did they sell the seals separately? | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2001 |
I just went to BMW and bought the valve seals part# 11-34-9-059-172 The BMW seals are red not green they claim the color might have changed but on the computer it shows all the M5's have the same seal. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 587 Registered: 12-2001 |
At least on the 2 valve, you only have 4 that would be a pain to do but not impossible. I have tapped the valves on other engines with a hammer as well and they just snap shut. They wont fall. Also, putting each piston at TDC is a pain. Just plug in the hose and the piston will go to BDC and away you go. I had a friend assist me with the keepers and I was out of the way because I used a breaker bar on the tool which allowed me to be well clear of the head. A small extendable magnet works well for the keepers and a long skinny screwdriver. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 434 Registered: 11-2001 |
The shop I used had a small valve spring compressor (manual) that I used for the job. They got it from ... motorcylce shops. IT seems motorcycles are full of small valve with overhead cams. It made the job easier. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2082 Registered: 12-2000 |
I had a hell of a time getting those keepers in and out of the spring retainers and that was with the heads on the bench. Man, I'd hate to drop one of those little bast**** down into those deep, dark crevices of that engine... | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 408 Registered: 5-2001 |
75PSI is probably OK. Somewhere I still have the spark plug socket air hose adapter I used to change the valve seals in my XK150, and later my '69 Mustang Grande. I just hooked the full air hose pressure to it, 90 psi more or less. There was NO danger of the air pressure not holding the valve in place. Those valves must have had almost 2sq in. of surface area. So would have taken ~180 lbs of force to open a valve! I'd guess that a QV's valves are about 1sq in, & a those in a 2V must be almost 1.5 in sq. 90 psi will keep those valves in place with no problem. With the valve springs off you could tap on the end of a valve with a plastic hammer, & if you hit it hard enough, it would let a blast of air out before snapping into place. I sort of remember there was some trick I was shown where you tapped the valve spring down & flipped the retainers out w/a screwdriver before it could snap in place again. Don't remember the specifics tho. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 376 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks guys. Is it important to bring the piston up to TDC to prevent the valve from dropping too much in case the pressure doesn't hold it in place? What kind of pressure should be used, 75 psi too much, too little? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 585 Registered: 12-2001 |
Bill, I used a tool at the ford dealer that we use on the 32valve lincoln/mustang engines. I mounted a plate that looks like an eye hook or an engine lift hook on each end of the head. Slid a bar through the eye of each tab so I had a bar above the row of valves I was working on. I slid a lever over the bar that had what looked like a tube with windows in the sides. The tube pushes down on the spring retainer and you access the keepers through the windows. The hardest part on the bench was holding the head while levering down on the springs. It would have been nice to have them attached to the engine for this. If I had to replace the seals or springs, I would do it in car for sure. Not having done it in car doesnt bother me. I know how much room there is and believe me, the newer cars have less than my 308 and Im doing heads and timing chains in car regularly. Set aside a weekend for the job. A pick hook could pull the old seal off and I used a 7/16" deep chrome socket to drive the new seals on. No biggy, really. What are your options? burn oil, pull the engine or just do it in car. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 645 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sounds challenging with the heads on the engine and engine in the car! | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2106 Registered: 2-2001 |
They make a spring compression tool that will remove the springs on the car. I do it all the time on other cars and the Ferrari should be no problem other than it being a little tight on the front head. Removing the bonnet would be a big help. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 374 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul, It sure would be comforting knowing someone has actually done this before on a 308. If it can really be done, then one could replace the seals and check or replace the springs too. Of course this really isn't as good as a head off valve job, but could prove to be a good way of prolonging the time until a complete engine rebuild is necessary. Once the cams, shims, and buckets are removed, how would you depress the valve caps to withdraw the keepers? Paul, I still have all the smog stuff for you, in the same condition as it was delivered to me. Send me an email and we'll work it out. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 583 Registered: 12-2001 |
I havent done seals on a 308 in car but have worked on much more complicated engines at work and wouldnt hesitate in doing them. I didnt say it would be a piece of cake but yanking the engine to do it would take more time. Are you considering seals as well Bill? Do you still have that smog stuff we talked about? | ||
| Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
New member Username: Nuvolari Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2002 |
To add to Paul's excellent tip, If you do not have compressed air at your disposal to hold the valves shut, there is another alternative. You can remove the spark plug and feed some soft rope into the cylinder (being sure to leave sone rope hanging out of the spark plug hole). Only a few inches is necessary. You then, using a wrench, slowly turn the engine until the piston pushes the rope into the valves and holds them shut for you. Once done, you reverse the procedure and pull the rope out of the cylinder. As with Paul's tip, the cams must be removed to service the valve seals. It may not sound very technical but the rope trick works beautifully; I have done it many times myself. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 373 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul, I know it's possible to change the valve seals using this method, but have you actually replaced the valve seals on a 308 with the engine still in the car? Has anyone else performed this feat? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 581 Registered: 12-2001 |
The heads stay on the engine. You can use a compression tester hose with a connector on it to hook up an air supply line from your compressor. The compressed air holds the valves shut while you remove one seal at a time. Of course the cams must be removed. | ||
| Chris Shenberger (Shenbec)
New member Username: Shenbec Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2002 |
How difficult is it to replace the value seals. Do the heads have to come off of the car or can this be done with the heads on and the engine in the car. My 80 euro smokes a little and would like to fix it if it is not that difficult. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 578 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ben, I have no oil consumption between oil changes on my 308 and I dont baby it. The teflon seals are crap and my guess would be that these are the cause of ferrari owners oil problems. I have the green M5 seals. They dirrectly replace the factory ones. | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 173 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ben, The white seals you purchased from Rutlands are really quite dated, both in design and effectiveness....FYI, they are Perfect Circle T9010 seals). The green synthetic seals, as used on BMW M5 and most older VW Rabbits are cheap, and very effective, paticularly as the seal wears. I used to do alot of Alfa work....and experimented with different types of valve seals and guides. Typically, with the white telfon seals, oil consumption would be 1000-1500 miles/qt. With the synthetic green seal, consumption would drop to about 2500 miles/qt... I'd send them back... David | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 62 Registered: 5-2001 |
These are better then the white teflon seals bought through t-rutlands? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 571 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yes you can use the viton 85 M5 seals. They are green, soft and lovely. | ||
| Erik R. Jonsson (Gamester)
Junior Member Username: Gamester Post Number: 71 Registered: 3-2002 |
It is suggested that you replace all exhaust valves on 2Valve models as they are sodium filled and have a weak stem. GT Car has them for about $30 each. Marky had one literally fall off his car when starting it on a cold day...suddenly it was running like crap(on 4 cylinders) because the valve head fell off flipped itself over and stuck itself into the piston crown. As this happened, it jumped time on the rear bank and bent all the intake valves. 60,000 mile 1981 GTBi. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 433 Registered: 11-2001 |
I would check the clearance of valve stem to valve guides. If it is outside of specs, then change them. I am not sure why ones would change expensive valves when they are still within specs. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 274 Registered: 4-2002 |
The guides on 2 valve engines apparently are crappy, but I've heard new seals do help. Someone found a superior quality BMW seal that fit. If I remember correctly, it was for an M-car of some type. M5?? | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2001 |
Im going to replace my valve seals because my engine smokes a little, my compression is all perfect. I have most of the parts that I need to do the job. However someone told me I will need all new valves and guilds because thats what makes the seals go bad on 308's. But thought I would check here first before i buy 1000$ of new parts. Is it common for the valves to go bad, or can i simply do new seals and be fine. Just looking for common situations on a 308, if one or two valves are bad its ok, but i dont want to start this now if im going to need all new guilds,valves,ect. |