| Author | Message | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 628 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hans, Probably in a few weeks. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 327 Registered: 4-2002 |
P.S. - Martin: Are you going back to Loynings? Soon? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 326 Registered: 4-2002 |
Thank goodness, Martin. When I go for that ride, I really didn't want the neighbors seeing me in a 360 making a 'ticking' noise. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2502 Registered: 12-2000 |
Only 355 at the rear wheels! Like Ferrari model 355 Hp or really 355 HP. That's like 410 HP, can't wait to see what it's like now. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 626 Registered: 5-2001 |
Exhaust leak fixed (broken air induction tube leading to the manifold)No more tick tick tick! Took it out for a run and it def feels more powerful. On the dyno with the leak only made 355hp at rear wheels and 183.5 mph.Will post numbers when I repeat. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 276 Registered: 5-2001 |
Peter, There may be some problem with the accuracy of that particular dyno, but the Dynojet brand used in the USA seems pretty consistant and gives repeatable results. The test done by the local Seattle FCA chapter seemed to follow closely with Ferrari specs, with the exception of those cars found to have some sort of emmission or ignition problem, corrected later. | ||
| Peter Connolly (Mondial_32_aus)
Junior Member Username: Mondial_32_aus Post Number: 99 Registered: 8-2001 |
Figures for my 87 Mondial 3.2 are 125Kw (167HP) from a theoretical 198 flywheel Kw (260 HP). I think dynos are notoriously innacurate having run my WRX over them plenty of times. PC   | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 612 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yes Ron, I would like a copy if you could email it to me that would be great. I was considering degreeing my cams this winter while the engine is out again. I wanted to check valve adjustment and so on and that would be a good time to do it. As far as gearbox final drives go, they also messed with the individual gear ratios for euros, US, QV and not, there must be 15 different combos of forward gear ratios in the 308 series. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 274 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul Newman, don't be surprised at some variation in the dyno numbers, remember the newest 308 is now 17 years old, and between the mileage, service history and condition, can all play into how closely the hp figures turn out. Plus, even in new production cars, there are individual variations.... | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Junior Member Username: Steve Post Number: 209 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hey Ron , nice to see you on the sight. Steve NY | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 322 Registered: 4-2002 |
Oops. Should have mentioned that my previous comments were regarding US models. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 321 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ron: The numbers themselves weren't 'revised', rather there is a difference in early .vs. late motors. '74 & '75 cars were perhaps 1.5 - 2.0 sec quicker to 60 than the '79 models (240 hp .vs. 205 hp) The later cars were the first applications of cat converters, and didn't perform too well. Also, the later cars had the single distributors, which is a tell-tale for different cams (ref: "Original V8"). | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
New member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2002 |
The US vs Euro bhp issue has been discussed before as has Ferrari's claimed HP versus "real HP". On the latter, they were generally fairly accurate, but as I recall there was some debate with the 512 bb. On the 308 differences, while the following is not comprehensive, it's a reasonable list to my knowledge: - weight of car, bumpers and additional reinforcement steel (doors...). - cam profile. Unclear if the euro cams and the early (76, 77) US cams are different - Superformance in the UK would likely know as one source, I am sure there are others who know too - intake cam timing (4 degree difference). Allen Bishop's book has a good description of US/Euro cam timing. (Ignition was unchanged excepting the idle/off idle timing on US cars) - exhaust muffler/cats restriction on US/later US cars - softer cams in 78, 79 than earlier cars - airpumps et al parasitic loss The first i cars (and qvs?) had revised final drive ratios helping 0 - 60 times Others? Philip | ||
| Ron Smith (Designr)
New member Username: Designr Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2002 |
Paul, I just ran my '79 308 GTB on a Dynapac and pulled 198 HP at the wheel. This motor has a fair amount of mods, 10.5/1, weisco, balanced, '77 cams, three angle valve grind, K&N, very open, de-smogged exhaust. I put it on the Dyno to get the A/F plot because it is running rich and has a stumble I need to tune out. I hope to get a little more when the jetting is right. As for Ferrari HP claims... R&T articles from the era note that HP numbers for 308's were revised down by Ferrari after the introduction. The early numbers were in the 240's, down to 205...sounds about right, based on the numbers people get. BTW my dyno guy says 16% driveline loss for mid-engine also. Let me know if you'd like to see the plots, I've scanned them in...Ron | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 316 Registered: 4-2002 |
Interesting that an early ('75) 2 valve engine is up near some of the 4 valve engines. Must be the continued influence of emissions. Paul: My old car's pipes sound like they are arranged like yours. Martin: Oops. But I'm sure you will redeem yourself. Hope so. I'd hate to take you up on your offer for a ride in a car that is down 25hp. <giggle> | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 609 Registered: 12-2001 |
The euro 308 does have a different exhaust. My system has the front bank pipe from the header run directly into the right end of the muffler and the rear into the left end of the muffler rather than the side of the muffler canister. Its fairly loud and low restriction. Aircleaner wise, no difference on my GTB other than the movable flap for the HC recovery. The ignition timing is better. Im a little surprised that a euro QV only makes 195 at the wheels. | ||
| Matt Boyd (Mattboyd)
New member Username: Mattboyd Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2002 |
My 85 Euro 308 recently dyno'ed at the wheels at 195HP. This was literally less than 6 hours after I'd buttoned it all up from a 30k service. Old plugs, but nothing else should have been an issue with my 17 year old 75,000 mile car. -matt | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 624 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hans- That was privileged info not for publication!! Car is in service today to fix the exhaust leak which was due to a faulty air induction tube broken off from the manifold.The fuel mix will then be checked on the computer and I may go back to the dyno for a real reading. Regards, Martin | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 644 Registered: 10-2001 |
Paul, My GT4 is an early US model and it has the Euro air box which is less restrictive. I've looked at other US GT4 cars and their air boxes are much smaller than mine, less air flow. Euro exhausts are less restrictive also. So I tend to believe that the euro cars are putting out more power. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 387 Registered: 5-2001 |
Don't the euro cars also run different ignition timing for a given year? | ||
| Doug Meredith (Doug308)
Junior Member Username: Doug308 Post Number: 206 Registered: 2-2001 |
When I had my '84 QV, it dyno'd at @ 190 hp and 158 ft/lbs at the rear wheels completely stock. One week later I dyno'd it sans cat conv. with a test pipe and the numbers increased by 1.5hp and 1 ft/lb. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 311 Registered: 4-2002 |
Off topic: I know everyone gets tired of 'It's a small world' stories, but when the dyno guy was hooking my car up, he said, "Yeah, I have driven this car before." Huh? He went on to explain that he was the tech who did the PDI on these cars for Bill Harrah - who was the importer at that time. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 608 Registered: 12-2001 |
I understand the differences between the euro and US cars. Unfortunately the weight doenst matter for what Im asking. My car is a US 79 308 with no smog anymore. The only differences then would be the cams and the drysump. The eurocams would make a difference but not 50hp worth. Hans' is a perfect example of an early 308 making 229hp at 17% losses. Also, I have high comp pistons and ported heads. Im hoping for the quoted 255hp at the flywheel. Ill see if I can get it dynoed in town. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 308 Registered: 4-2002 |
Oh, and almost forgot: a couple of 360s. One was only 2 weeks old, and did essentially spot-on with the factory numbers. Martin Weiner's 360 was having 'techinical difficulties' (blamed on a bad oxygen sensor), and was down by 25hp or so. It was obvious from the smell that it was WAY too rich. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 307 Registered: 4-2002 |
FWIW: Just dyno'd the ancient '75 'Dino'saur. I was pleased with the numbers, considering the spark plugs are 8000 miles old, and the carbs are out of sync and the mixture (as per the exhaust gas analysis done at the same time) is too lean. 196HP (corrected) at the wheel. I don't have the sheet here, but, if I remember correctly, engine HP was estimated at 232 w/18% loss. Other cars present were a seriously souped up Corvtte that did 430 at the *wheel*, and a Viper at 440HP. The star of the show was Page Steven's F50. It was in the mid-400's when I looked away from the screen. They revved it for another 1500 rpm or so after that. Most of us left to clean our shorts (Page's car has essentially no exhaust), so I didn't see the final figures. | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
Junior Member Username: Miked Post Number: 56 Registered: 2-2001 |
Exactly right David, there is a huge weight difference Euro vs US. There are many differences other than cams within the engine/exhaust but the extra weight really makes a difference on the road. US cars generally came loaded with AC, leather, PW etc. (many of which the Euro didn't usually have, especially the early GT4's) and additional frame structure to hold up those massive crash bumpers. Road & Track's initial test of the 308 GT4 in Europe (9/74) listed a weight of 2900 lbs. and a 1/4 mile in 14.6 sec. Far different than the US version at 3300 lbs. and 16.1 sec. My guess would be that the US non-cat/carb cars MAY have been 240 hp or a little less but the cat/carb would be 10-20 hp lower. The injected cars, as mentioned here seem about right at 205 hp but ejoyed a significant drivability improvement over the last of the, by then strangled, carb cars. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 272 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul, The dyno shop I used said 17% drive train loss is typical. There is way more difference than cams on a Euro 308. First off is the weight, probably 250 lbs for the bumpers and emission controls. The cams were different, richer jetting in the carbs, then the air pumps and depending on year, dual cats or thermo-reactor... I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff here....anyone? | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 607 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ive been told the injected cars are no slower than a carb car but the HP numbers from ferrari show otherwise. Ive read they are slower but people who have driven both seem to disagree. I doubt the euro is 255 considering the numbers I just read and the cams being the only difference? (drysump wont make up the difference) Something is wrong with the factory numbers at least on the early 308's. You would need 219 on a carb euro 308 to meet their claim if 16% is correct. Ive heard 15% on RWD front engine cars with a manual trans. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 270 Registered: 5-2001 |
My previous 78 308 GTS was dyno'd. Claimed was 205 hp, and it did 178 hp at the wheels which comes out to around 214hp. It had the following done to it: Recent major service New factory wires and extenders Rejetted carbs with 140 main jets (stock is 125) K&N filter Stainless steel bypass pipes (from Nick) stock muffler Crane xr700 ignition boxes with bosch coils air pump disconnected | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2452 Registered: 12-2000 |
175 GTSi at the wheels with 16% loss factor is 208 HP. That's 3 more than factory list. Mine shows right on list with stock air filter and 12 more hp than list with the K&N. 16% is a conservative loss factor too. | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Junior Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 83 Registered: 11-2001 |
Ferrari claimed 205 HP for the 308gtsi. Norwoods claims 16-20% loss in the drivetrain, and uses 16% for Ferraris given the shorter drivetrain. 205 - 16% = 172.2, so the 175 is probably a fair real-world number for a Fcar of that vintage. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 606 Registered: 12-2001 |
Those dyno numbers fall short factoring the drivetrain loss into it. I just got a chill. 175hp 308gtsi at the wheels? not good. | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Junior Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2001 |
The D/FW Ferrarichat had a dyno day at Norwood's back in the spring. Some numbers are here: http://ferrarichat.com/events/dyno2002/ We only had 308-348's there. The numbers seemed to match Ferrari's claims pretty well. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 605 Registered: 12-2001 |
Has anyone dynoed a ferrari from the 60's to early 80's to see how generous ferrari was with their numbers? |