| Author | Message | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Frank, How many washers, thickness, did it take to align the Alt.? Magoo | ||
| Frank Foster (Sparta49)
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Just got everything put back together and all is working fine now. First off I want to say that Dave Goldman did an excellent job with the 30K service I never suspected that it was related to something he did or failed to do so we don't need to blame the technician. After checking the last belt put on ( it was just squealing it didn't melt yet) it looked like the belt was wearing from the outside another check at pulley alignment looked like the alt was sitting about the tickness of a washer too far back. I went and bought washers and shimmed the alt. brackets so far I've put about 50 miles on it without any squeals from the belt. | ||
| Dave Goldman (Cavramp98)
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Dr. Dan , For the record the car was driven for 20+ miles after the 30k was done. Also the car popped water pump belts( I believe 2) before the 30k but that was not disclosed either to myself or this list until after the work was completed. The pass side frame was twisted by the force of the impact.This possibly has something to do with the problem since all other bases seem to have been covered. Don't always be so quick to blame the tech.We don't get to have malpractice insurance! | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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After examining a Ferrari Harmonic balancer today I have found that the Belt groove is part of the inner hub and the outer weighted portion is the only part held together by rubber, so that is not the problem. | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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No, if the rubber in between the two castings breaks loose, the outer hub will slip on the inner part. Honda Preludes do this all the time and the accessories will stop turning and you will get a squeel. | ||
| Danny R. West (Dan_West348ts)
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I'd send the damn thing back to whoever did the 30k service and let them solve the problem. Frank mentioned he's replaced 2 belts within 100 miles of receiving the his car back from 30k. It appears the tech did not properly check out the car before returning it to Frank. Dan | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
|
Frank has stated a few times already that he checked pulley alignment (that is to assume he knows how to check for alignment. I would use a straight-edge placed on two pulleys at a time. Both edges of both pulleys should touch the straight-edge, any light that shines through on one edge will show that that pulley is tweeked). If the pulley is installed backwards, the offset would be seen by the naked eye and I'm sure he checked that. Herbert, if the balancer was split, wouldn't the engine run slightly rough? | ||
| William Masterson (Veloce)
|
I was at my mechanics a few months back and he showed me a 308 belt that had broken and he spent some time sorting out the problem. It seems that it is perfectly possible to put the pullys on the wrong way . I can not remember if he was refering to the water pump pully or the alternator pulley. In either case if you put one on flipped the wrong way, the belt will be out of alignemt about 1/4" and will fail. That is what had happened on his customers car. You may not be able to detect this by just looking at the belt. My suggestion is to get the parts manual and check out the orientation of the pullies or look at a friends car. | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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Is there any chance that it is not the belt that is squeeling but the harmonic balancer. The balancer is rubber sealed between two pieces and could be slipping. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Kelly, Not to belabor a point here but if the car was hit on the left rear and the belts are on the right side and the units that are on that belt are the water pump, which he replaced, the Alt., which he replaced, and the crank, which is pretty hard to throw out of alignment since it is held in place by the main bearings and journals in the webbing of the block. Just a suggestion but don't you think it seems like something is pinching the belt under tension, possibly a pulley seperation. Just a thought. | ||
| kelly vince (Tofosi1)
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Frank's going to gone until Thursday of this week guys. I looked at the belt alinment from above the air box. It looked good to me. I do want to add one thing. This car was hit on the left rear. I've seen cars that have been hit getting shafts screwed up. Seemd like one of them maybe riding back and forth. I think a timing light would help. When Frank gets back we'll see where we can get one. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Frank, When you changed Alt.s did you change the pulley from your old Alt.? Come to think of it if you did then check that pulley for seperation also. Maybe if you experiment by not tightening the belt so tight and try it. That way if it is pulley seperation it is not likely to do it under lighter tension. Then gradually tighten it until it happens. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
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In situations like this where things are happening with the engine running, I've watched the area with a timing light to look for abnormalities --- that is of course, if you can make it squeal in your shop... | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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I sure would like to see some pictures of this situation. This is too simple of a system to be having such a problem. Even if the belt was WAY out of alignment, it would not burn up that fast. An exorcism may be in order. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Sorry, Check the crank pulley since you put on another Alt. and a water pump pulley. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Frank, Not to joke about this but this is opposite all logic. Are any of the pulleys, except the water pump pulley that you replaced, pulling apart where they are put together under belt pressure and causing the belt to bind. Put a wide blade screwdriver inside the pulley groove and twist it putting stress on the pulley groove. Watch closley to see if the crank pulley or Alt. pulley are springing apart under a load. This is the only other possibility that I see if your shims on the Alt. do not work. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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This is truly unbelievable. Like I said "It's a demon shoot the b----." | ||
| Frank Foster (Sparta49)
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The coolant pipe is not in the way, I did try belt dressing before one belt failure but after checking for pulley alignment againit looked like thealt. pulley was sitting the space of a washer "behind" the other pulleys so I put washers behind the lower alt bracket and the top bracket, took it for a driveall seems ok but it has fooled me before. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
|
Is the cooling pipe getting in the way? Did you try using belt-dressing on the belt? (softens the rubber making it slip less on the pulley) How is the alignment of the alt pulley in relation to the other pulleys (main and WP)? How tight/loose is the tension on the belt? Are you using a huge pry-bar to reef on the alt? .....? | ||
| Frank Foster (Sparta49)
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Just put on a new alternator, belt started squealing immediately. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
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Frank-Do you have a FAX # ? If so email it to me and I will fax you a copy of my "Ferrari Service Bulletin" (I have a complete copy of this book that covers all models thru 84)regarding this problem. I do not know how much help it will be now but there is a mention of what to do if,"...you find that a vehicle has experienced repeated water pump/alternator belt failures..." | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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If thats the case the rotor and stator are probably wiped. So get another alt. as Peter suggests | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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If it is heat then it would be easy to diagnose, just look for a glowing pipe after running. I don't believe this is the case though. I believe it is the bearing shifting in the alternator housing when the belt is tightened, and the armature binds on the coil. | ||
| kelly vince (Tofosi1)
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Let me through something in for good measure. When Dave did the 30K on this car, he found the front distributor rotor looked like cotton candy. So the car was running on the back bank only. After the 30K and he cranked the engine, white smoke came out becasue of all the un burned gas in the front header. I have heard about having the incorrect fuel mixture nakeing the headers glow red hot.If we take the water pump and altenator out of the equation, do you think it could be the header cooking the belt. I know thiers a heat sheild, but it's gets close in there. What do you think herb? | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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It may be spinning fine when everything is cold. But when it heats up from the engine running and the bearing is shot (with no grease left in it because of which), it'll lock up and cook the belt. Replace that alt. altogether. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Frank, If ain't the Alt. shoot it, it's a demon. | ||
| Frank Foster (Sparta49)
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Just returned home with the car on the back of a tow truck.  This belt lasted about 35 miles. Now it starts squealing after it idles for a few minutes at a red light. All I can figure is the bearing in the alternator has to be the problem even though it looks as if it is spinning smoothly. | ||
| Frank Foster (Sparta49)
|
I changed the rubber bushings on the alt. bracket yesterday afternoon. I put everything back together this morning drove it for about 20 miles ( lost a wheel cap on the way , the belt did not squeal and shows so far at least no signs of wear. Keeping my fingers crossed. | ||
| HEATH VAUGHN (Heath)
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NEW WATER PUMP BIG BEARING $349.95. EVANS IN OHIO THE SAME PEOPLE WHO OFFER THE CLUTCH KITS ON EBAY. | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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There is really nothing left but the alternator. | ||
| Joe Baker (Joeferrari)
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In order to smoke a belt, the faulty unit should be so hot you won't be able to touch it easily, check which is hottest. Feel both bearings on the alternator not just the front one.I,ve yet to see a bearing be able to do what you say without some noise, get an engineers stethiscope and check each one while it's running, listen for rumbling | ||
| Joe Baker (Joeferrari)
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Gd Day Got a suggestion for you, go to a belt place, get a size that will link just the water pump to engine, I gather that it has no idler pulley, if it has leave it out, Take car for drive on the battery running iginition, it will be ok for while, if that fixes it it's either Alternator or idler( process of elimination) | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Frank I'm almost afraid to say anything. I would have bet for sure that it was the pump. Does the belt track in a straight line through the pulleys? The only other thing I can think of if the belt tracks ok is what I said before the alt. bearing getting hot and binding. Sorry buddy, that's a bummer. | ||
| Frank Foster (Sparta49)
|
Got the new pump installed, had the radiator recored, and made it to the corner before the new belt melted. This led to a new pulley for the water pump. Everything seemed ok, drove for about 8 or 10 miles no squealing belt. I came home bled the system some more when I was heading out for another drive the belt started squealing and smoking. Any suggestions on where to go next?? Thanks, Frank | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Hey Frank, good move man. I just got my water pump back from Nick. He is a true gentleman, and always goes out of his way to help me. He gets all possible business I can send him. | ||
| Frank Foster (Sparta49)
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Thanks for the feedback, I pulled the water pump yesterday, it sounds as if a bearing is bad I already shipped it to Nick Scianna. I'll let everyone know how it turns out | ||
| Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
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You should be able to feel the pulleys and tell which one is hard to turn, or either which one gets hot quickly to determine the culprit. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Frank, it sounds like the water pump bearing is locking up after it gets hot. Could be the alternator locking up,but I would think most likely it would be the pump bearing. Call Nick Scianna @360-332-7779 he will be able to tell you and also rebuild the pump for you. Nick is a sponser of the Ferrari chat line and the best source of professional info. around. | ||
| Frank Foster (Sparta49)
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I just got the car back from the 30,000 mile service and it just went through it's second water pump belt since January when I bought the car. The belt starts squealing and then ends up melted to the water pump pulley , alternator pulley, and crank shaft pulley, I just put a new belt on this morning and it's squealing already, it looks like all pulleys are turning fine, both popped within 100 miles of the cars arrival |