| Author | Message | ||
| Erik Jonsson (Gamester)
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Gates hose # 20267 is a tight bend hose, 20065 is a large bend hose and 21461 is a 45 degree bend of the appropriate size for the radiator. Napa gold stripe hoses are made by gates and should be the same numbers. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I put water wetter in my car a few days ago. The stuff is impressive to say the least. My car would idle up to around 205 on a hot day if it was just standing still, not it doesn't break 195. And on the highway, no matter the temperature outside, it stays at 175. The stuff is really worth it. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Hey everyone, well I took the car to a place I was recommended to. I won't name the place, because I am picking up the car today and those jerks did not even touch it in 5 days. Despite 10 phone calls to them, no one called me back with a status or just to tell me what the hell they are doing to my car. I was recommended to use this place for my Ferrari, but I was sorely mistaken. They suck and have since made me very nervous, because my Ferrari is with some guys I don't know. I am going to get it today and take it somewhere else. So, I actually have no report to you guys, because those schmucks have had my car all week, and did nothing. I'm less than thrilled. More info later.....but now I am thinking that I just may need to upgrade the fans. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Mitchel, What is happening? Was the guage the problem all along? Let us know. | ||
| Neil Green (Neilg)
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Mitchel, I'd be inclined to say it's the gauge. They are known to go bad. I have a 1977 308GTB, and my gauge went bad. I just purchased one recently from Foreign Cars Italia, who obtained the part from Ferrari North America. Cost was $175. My temp reading now is in the 180 degree F range. It used to push the 220 F mark as yours does. If you decide to change the gauge, make sure you have a magnetic screwdriver, to hold onto the dash bolts during extraction/reassembly. It's a real timesaver. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
|
OK everyone, I got the car completely back together, bled the cooling system and did everything by the book. The car ran great, sounded great, looked great. At the end of a brisk but easy run, the gauge started creeping past 195, the to the 220 mark. That is an unacceptable temp. We were a little dumbfounded, but we then realized it must be the gauge sending unit, or the gauge itself. I am taking the car to the doctor tonight or tomorrow. Its got to be a hose that is bad, or just the gauge. Any thoughts? | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
|
GREAT NEWS!! I'm glad it came out without a hitch. That is a great idea of taping the cardboard to the condensor. I got hold of a fin brush and will be able straighten the fins I bent during the process. Please let us know what the radiator place finds out!! I'm very curious to know what they find! I'm having a bit of difficulty getting the water pump back on my car. The 2 outlets in the back of the pump go into 2 short hoses underneath the intake runners, what a pain in my tush. I cannot access the clamp the tighten it down. I did get my water pump reassembled and I have a new thermostat, thermostat housing gasket, new radiator thermo fan switch and some water wetter. We are going to try and find a really small, but fat screwdriver to get in there and do the clamp, or I might end up taking the other end of the hose off, and going at it backwards. I just do not want to take any of the intake off. I did notice that the car has a small oil leak, I believe coming from the cam covers. Just something else to put on the list!! I just love playing with the car, but I'd rather be driving it!! Ahh, all in due time. | ||
| Tom Nowak (Tnowak)
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Mitch: Got the radiator out last nite and will go to the radiator shop this lunch break.The instructions were very informative. You definately need to raise the compressor along with the radiator for a distance, then separate the two to clear the spare tire pod. To everyone out there, if you are going to perform this removal and replacement, I would recommend duct taping a thin piece of cardboard on the face of the a/c compressor. This will help keep the surface of the a/c compressor if it happens to come in contact with the screws that mount the fan blades to the fan motors. Again thanks! t.n. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Tom: No problem man, I think the car will run lots cooler after you get the radiator done. Taking the bonnet off makes it much easier. You and I will be working on our 308s probably at the same time tonight! I'm putting my water pump back on tonight and then bleeding the system. I wish I was close to ya man, I'd come over and give you a hand with the job. This is what makes this website such a great tool for me. I'm not very mechanically inclined, but I'm very curious and I like to disassemble and reassemble things. Just with a little guidance from this site, I have been able to do my water pump, radiator, bleed my systems, change my oil and various other things. Keep us posted... | ||
| Tom Nowak (Tnowak)
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Mitch: Thanks so much! If I can get help tonight, the bonnet is coming off and its time to get to work. A 308 has always been a dream car for me. I love the styling and the very mechanical feel of the switches and such. Definately rolling art! And definately mecca for a gearhead! I've named my car Black Betty. I've found a competent radiator repairer in my area, so that's half the battle. She runs great and is so tempting to wait till winter to pull the radiator, but gotta stay on top of this stuff! I've found in the past, where there is a leak, air gets sucked in the closed cooling system upon cooling down. And then you have air in the cooling system and contributes to hot spots in the motor and you see quick drastic changes on the temp gauge (goes kinda above normal and cuts back real quick).But again, thanks for the steps, and I'll watch out for the a/c condenser. I'll keep some band aids handy just in case! t.n. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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TOM! Whats up buddy? Great to hear about another QV owner! I too am a recent newbie to Ferrari ownership. I bought my black metallic over tan 84 308 QV over Labor Day! Her name is Maria and her serial number is 51665. I drool everytime I look at the car as it is SO gorgeous. Anyway, let me fill you in on what I know...firstly read the message below and follow those instructions. #9 and #10 are VERY IMPORTANT! Be absolutely sure to loosen the front radiator fans, or they will dig into the AC condensor when you try to remove the radiator. MAKE sure you have a magnetic screw/nut/bolt retrieving tool handy. YOU DO NOT have to disconnect the high pressure AC hoses, only the single screw and nut that hold the metal parts to the radiator. You MUST remove the bonnet to get full access. Its actually very easy to remove the bonnet. I did not see any sheetmetal straps on either side, so I do not think that is applicable. You DO NOT have to remove the AC condensor itself the radiator will slide right behind it, but you have to be extra careful to protect the condensor, and protect your fingers, I got a nasty cut from the gills of the condensor. BE CAREFUL!! The radiator shop will certainly be able to fix it, no problem. They will core it out, flush it, clean it, weld it and paint it for about $100. I got my radiator totally restored for $70 (but I think the lady liked me, so she gave me a deal!  While you have it out, go to NAPA and get the lower radiator hose for $5. I found that NAPA could not get me the upper hose, so I had to go to Ferrari of Atlanta and pay $55 for the upper hose. I would get some Redline Water Wetter and maybe a fresh thermostat too. Don't forget about BOTH bleeder valves on the car once you refill the system. One bleeder valve is on the radiator, the other is on top of the thermostat housing. Also, I replaced every nut and bolt I took off with fresh ones. Total cost of ALL the nuts and bolts from Home Depot was $1.95! Do that for sure. Take your time. I was so proud of myself for doing it without a mechanic, and without paying a mechanic!! Good luck...email me if you have any problems, OK? -Mitch | ||
| Tom Nowak (Tnowak)
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Mitch: Your guys discussion thread comes at the most opportune time! If you could provide the steps involved to r&r the radiator, it would be extremely benefecial.For example,did you have to break the a/c connections and remove the a/c condenser core? Did you have to remove the bonnet to get adequate clearance to get the radiator out? Do the radiator mounting straps fasten to the inner fender sheetmetal strips? In my case,the seam where the top tank is crimped onto the radiator core is leaking. Needless to say, I need to at a minimum remove the radiator, get it flushed and repaired (if condition warrants). For your guys info, In January, I finally stepped up to the plate and bought a 1985 308 US spec QV. Black with buckskin interior/black piping. On occasion, I have reviewed your discussions, and find them very valuable. As all of you are aware, there really is not a lot of information on repairing the breed. The marparts manuals do not really cover too much. The ones I have purchased cover more internal engine stuff and high level diagnostics, which will be farmed out to a specialist when the time arrives (hopefully not for a while!). Because of your threads, you have already helped me with a couple of basic needs/questions. I am finding that because they are relatively low volume cars, there is not a lot of tricky fasteners holding door panels or trim pieces and such. But I am finding a lot of pop rivets! Again thanks! Tom Nowak P.S. How do you keep an older child (67 Corvette) from getting jealous with a new addition in the garage? | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Hey Sam, I got an email from Jeff Greenfield about the procedure. I followed his procedure, and it was excellent, except you MUST loosen the two fans prior to removal. Here is the email: I'd check the fuse block before pulling the radiator. If you need to remove the radiator ... here is the procedure: 1) Jack up the front of the car (support securely, yada, yada, yada) and remove the plate that conceals the hoses. 2) Drain the radiator by either disconnecting one of the hoses or the drain plug. 3) Disconnect the upper hose from the radiator. 4) Disconnect the lower hose from the radiator. 5) Follow the lower hose & pipe to where it attaches behind the panel that you removed. Loosen/remove the hose clamp and work the whole pipe/hose assembly off and out. (Not too easy) 6) Remove the front grille from the car. 7) Remove the top two bolts that hold the radiator to the support and the bolt on the R.H. side that holds the A/C hoses to the radiator. 8) Remove the top two bolts (6mm) that hold the A/C condenser to the radiator. 9) This is where the fun begins ... Carefully lift and work the radiator and A/C condenser up far enough (about 1/2 way) so that you can access the lower two bolts (through the space that the grille used to occupy) that hold the A/C condenser to the radiator and remove them. If you are alone use a tu-ba-fur to hold the radiator up high enough. (Note: My car has the euro front air dam, although it is a US car. There maybe a way to access the bottom two bolts on a car with the smaller US spec air dam, having never looked at one closely I don't know, YMMV) 10) Carefully separate the A/C condenser from the radiator. This has to be done while simultaneously lifting the radiator out at a 45 degree angle towards the rear of the car. There is enough room on the A/C hoses to allow this to be done. 11) Re-assembly is the reverse of dis-assembly. If the radiator shop has to remove any of the brackets from the radiator, make sure that they put them back on in exactly the same place(s) as there is no tolerance for anything to be off. 12) Make sure that you bleed the cooling system completely both as you fill it and during the initial warm up. Don't forget to loosen the fans, watch the AC condensor, I got quite a cut on my index from the gills. VERY SHARP! You must remove the front hood too. If you have any questions, please let me know. | ||
| Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
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Mitch, I am about to do the same thing - r/r the rad as I have a similar overheat issue. seems all these cars are the same vintage and plagued by the same old age. Could you take some time and list rad r/r steps tips what have you so we can all benefit from your experience. It would be appreciated. thanks | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Hi everyone, just a quick update. I got the radiator back in last night. It took me a few hours more than I expected, but you can never anticipate dropping nuts, bolts and screws countless times! DOH! Anyway, the radiator went in smoothly, and THursday night I will be putting my water pump back on, and bleeding the system out. It should be 100% by Thursday. I'm so excited I can hardly sit still. Its been over 2 weeks since I have driven my baby.....and she is less than thrilled with me! | ||
| Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
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Herb, How do you do it? you got this one right straight away....kudos to the others who figured this out as well. It sure is a great feeling with a few heads toghther over the internet from around the world we can have clean fun save money and put another ferrari on t eh road, my rad is coming out soon too, | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Great news everyone! I just heard from the radiator shop, they said my radiator was horrible clogged with deposits and crud. The had a hard time believing that it came off a car that was running. That is how bad they said it was. SO, I found my overheating problem!!! I am so proud of myself, and I learned a lot about my car at the same time....as well as save a wheelbarrow full of money. Ohhh if I could just kiss myself!!! Thanks for all your help everyone. Now I have to wait until Monday to get the car back together. Dangit. Oh well, I guess I will find something to clean or replace in the meantime. I went to NAPA and got some good radiator hose, now I have to go to Ferrari of Atlanta and get the correct water pump belt. You guys rule! Thank you SO much for your help, suggestions and guidance. -Mitch | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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I got the radiator off last night. That certainly was not the easiest in the world, but I got it out without any significant damage to the AC condenser. I'm taking it to be cored out and cleaned in 30 minutes when they open. Wish me luck!! More updates later..... | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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When i first bought my Countach it overheated all the time, then we removed the radiators & had them boiled inside & out. never had an overheating prob again, Try that. or while u r at it replace the heavy Ferrari radiator with a light MB unit like the racers use in the UK Challenge or get a full race rad | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Hey Paul, I absolutely agree. I'm yanking the radiator out this weekend and am having it recored, cleaned and flushed. I hope that is the problem. Nick Scianna said it is worth a shot. I should have my water pump and test pipes tomorrow from Nick. He is SOOO cool, I wish he was on the East Coast. Anyway, I will keep everyone posted and thanks so much for all the help guys. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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It is not that your radiator is blocked but that its capacity has been reduced by CRUD after 17 years of work, basicly your radiator most likely has 50% less capacity due to CRUD. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Hi everyone! Good morning. I like your ideas of the blocked radiator. It does make sense. I have to sit back and think about this for a second. The cooling system on a 308 is very basic, and relatively simple and there are only so many things that can go wrong. When I had that laser pyrometer I did take several readings of the radiator when the car was idling after a drive. I did not see enough of a fluctuation in the temps to suggest a blockage. However, I do still think that there is something amiss with it, and it is difficult to get accurate readings with the fans blowing. I will be pulling the radiator this Saturday and am bringing it to a rad shop. maybe they can find that it is blocked? SO, I will put my water pump back on, and take the radiator off this weekend....if I don't break down and take it to the shop. Is it difficult taking the radiator out? | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Mitchel, I would do the test on the rad. that Herb. says and if you have doubts have it rodded as Paul says. Two opinions much better than mine. Herb works with it every day and he has a feel for these things. Be sure to let us know what happens once you rod out the rad. Sorry I couldn't be of more help, but I like to eliminate the small things and work up to the bigger potential problems. Just my way of doing things. | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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If your hoses collapse then you have a bad radiator cap. You cannot have pressure and a vacuum at the same time. The cap should hold pressure but release vacuum. If there is much of a vacuum then there is too much air in the system.The ferrari does not use the same overflow system that modern closed systems use. A normal car has a closed system with an overflow tank that will return any puked out coolant when the system cools and a vacuum occurs in the system. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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Pull the radiator out and take it to a good shop and have them remove the top and "rod it out". | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Herbert, after I ran my car and shut it down, The top rad. hose would be sucked shut until I bled the system properly. This occured after changing the coolant. So what you are saying is as long as the engine is running there is pressure and no vacuum should occur? | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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You need to feel of the radiator with the engine running and the thermostat open. Start feeling of the core from top to bottom and I bet that you will find it cooler on one end than the other signifying a clogged radiator. The cooling system should purge itself of air without drastic measures. When I overhauled my engine I added three gallons of coolant and three gallons of water and started it up and did nothing else. When the thermostat opens all the air comes out by itself. I'll bet a doughnut on a clogged radiator. The only way the water pump could cause your problem would be if the impeller was loose or worn out. Even if the pump leaked it would still pump.Also if you have pressure on the system you will not have a collapsed hose. That occurs when the system is under a vacuum. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Yes the fans are blowing. I will bleed it at both ends, with the heater on high. One of my friends said that there might be a problem with the expansion tank or the plumbing to it. Perhaps one of the hoses leading to the expansion tank is clogged or blocked? hmmmmm. I will also pull off the hoses to see if I can see any blockage or damage to them. It is acting as if a valve closes at a certain temp. If the gauge reads to high, will a valve open or close to send more coolant to the radiator? Does this part exist? Oh, and Bill Pollard checked for emissions in the coolant with regards to a bad or leaky head gasket, and all looked good. I'm almost sure the head gaskets are fine. | ||
| 308i80 (Lamont)
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Mitchel, the Ferrari guy I go to tells me to bleed the lines when the engine is cool with the radiator cap off and then bleeding the radiator vent and the water pump vent with heater on. Because bleeding a hot engine everything in it has expand. Also 30% Anti and 70% distilled water. Are your Fans blowing the right way too? | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Mitchel, I'm sorry you are still having trouble. However don't discount the hose sucking shut because it happened to mine. It was because of air in the system though. The upper rad. hose. Mine look and feel strong but they can suck shut. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
|
OK guys a bit of bad news. I pulled my water pump off the 308 2 weekends ago and sent it to Nick Scianna. He said there is nothing at all wrong with the pump. He said it has been rebuilt recently. SO that sucks. I have no clue as to what is making my car run so hot. To recap the scenario: The car starts and idles fine when cold. Runs great after I let the fluids warm. Then I drive it for about 15-20 minutes. The temp gauge reads 195 the whole time. If I stop for a light or traffic, then gauge reads the temp is going up. I can feel some heat around my feet. After I replaced the thermostat, it seemed to run nice and cool while being driven. Once I get it home, it overheats very rapidly. The fans are on, the heat is on, and I can let it idle and watch the temp gauge go almost all the way up....then it will start peeing coolant out of the overflow hose. 30 seconds later the coolant and steam is literally forcing and shoving its way out of the overflow. After I shut it off, it continues to pee coolant (which is very foamy and frothy) for about 1 minute, then it stops completely. I turn the key to check the gauge, the fans come on, and the temp has lowered but it still registers really high. SO my ideas are as follows. I have checked the thermostat and replaced it. I have flushed the system, bled the sys of air several times. I have now had the water pump checked. I can pull the radiator out and check for a blockage and have it cored. I was told the hose are very heavy duty and do not pull shut, so I doubt a hose is clamping shut. Perhaps there is a blockage somewhere, or there is some sort of divertor valve OR SOMETHING that is closing or opening when it gets hot. Maybe something is put on backwards?? Or upside down? WTF?? All I know is that the car runs fine, until I stuck in traffic or just let it idle in the driveway. I know that something is wrong, but I am clueless as to what it can be. Nick suggested that I MIGHT have a block possibly in the exhaust system. He also thinks it could be the exhaust timing being off. Does anyone have any idea what the hell could be wrong with my baby? When I get the pump back, I will button her back up and most likely take it to the shop. I just want the car to get better so I can drive it!! |