| Author | Message | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 188 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ed, I use the GM sensor too. They have 3 of them though, 1, 2,3 bar absolute. 1 bar naturally aspirated, I use a 2 bar which is good to 15 psi boost, that's probably the one you have too, I'm switching to a 3 bar to go with my new blower  | ||
| Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member Username: 350hpmondial Post Number: 214 Registered: 2-2002 |
Mark, I have had the same experiance. You just let out the clutch, the rest is electronic. (I believe mine is an E6K also.) The MAP Sensor used is just a General Motors MAP Sensor, about 35 bucks tops. Note that it works good at boost (7psi) also. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 185 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm running a Haltech E6k on my QV and have been really happy with it. The ECU runs the fuel and ignition. I run it closed loop below 20% throttle and open loop above that. I use a map sensor instead of mass flow and it's been fine. the real difference I noticed was low rpm drivability. It used to buck below 2500 rpm, now I can let the clutch up without touching the gas and the car will go smoothly. It's just better. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2215 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yes, the hot wire types are the best thing going and they keep perfecting them. It works by the computer heating a piece of wire to a preset temperature and then measuring the amount of power needed to keep it at that temperature as the incoming air cools it. That is a Cliff note explanation by the way, it is a little more complicated but that is the basics. By the way, this is where the complaints about the performance air filters come in. If a piece of lint, dirt, cat hair, whatever accumulates on the piece of wire that is exposed to the incoming air stream, it will change the resistance value of the signal from the piece of wire and will reek havoc with the fuel mixture. Sometimes it can be cleaned off and sometimes not. Some of these sensors are over a thousand bucks. | ||
| Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member Username: 350hpmondial Post Number: 196 Registered: 2-2002 |
Oh, and one stock crank sensor is used as input to the ECU. | ||
| Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member Username: 350hpmondial Post Number: 195 Registered: 2-2002 |
Thanks Ed G. for the clarification. (I am getting schooled now. I am a mechanical/chemical/nuclear & telecommunications engineer. And, ,, ,as I said, I got the aftermarket system with the car. It had cost about 20k back in 1994.) Question, Are the new "Mass Flow Sensors" the heated wire type? Drivability is improved. At low rpm, the V8 is calm and quiet. (I can get about 16 MPG!) If you get on the throttle, the turbo kicks in at about 3500 rpm, then it revs quickly to the 7700 rpm rev limiter. (with 7 psi boost) fun fun fun! (Look for about 10 mpg) I don't know the 1/4 mi time, I have beat 5.0 mustangs. I can keep up with C6 vette's but Vipers can just kill me. .... ... but, I still get #1 valet spot, .. ... ha ha Emmissions? I have not run it on a sniffer, I would assume that it will run cleaner, after I add an aftermarket cat. My fuel pump is factory with pressure at about 35 psi? the regulator takes adjustment depending on manifold vacuum/pressure. And, Yes the manifold needs to be removed and machined to fit the new injectors. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2848 Registered: 2-2001 |
The only thing permanent in switching to a Tec3 or the likes would be the need for boring out the injector ports in the manifold, all the rest could simply be taken off and replaced with the stock if ever insanely induced to revert back. I look at it this way, is a 308 ever going to be a concourse car? No, neither will a 328, 348, 355, 360, 550, you get the idea. The newer cars are already so well setup you'd be insane to really do anything to them. The older cars though can be worked on. If I was perfectly sane I would be happy with just the normal QV runnings and enjoy the car for what it is, but sanity we know I don't have. A closed loop like Edward said is the way to go, the real reason behind all this for me is the need for the nearly infinite adjustability to couple with the higher comps. and also the ability to run any other things I do in the future. I think a 308 would be a lot nicer though even in stock form with a system like this, it runs kind of low comp, but still is a 3.0L which is large for these ghetto fabulous tuners, and the stock performance is a little low for a modern standards of an engine of that size. BUT, many will say drive it for what it is, so it is up to the owner. For the most part, mods are done for your own satisfaction and you wont get your money out of them when you sell it, unless your last name is Lingenfelter, Michelotto, or Shelby in which case you would get ridiculous amounts when you sell it. | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 104 Registered: 5-2001 |
How much is a conversion like this going to hurt the value of the car? | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
New member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2002 |
I'm not looking to gain any horsepower..I just want better drivability and a little qiucker response. I'm a mechanic by trade and I know the performace advantages of going to a fully electronic ignition is nothing but benificial. I just wanted to do some reasearch and feed back before doing this project.. I would like to beable to return the car back to stock without to much headache if I ever decide to sell the car. thanks for all you help it's greatly needed | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2206 Registered: 2-2001 |
I did not change my car to a newer FI system. I only added the distributorless ignition system. Had I kept the car I would have added a system from Electromotive since it would have complimented their excellent DIS units. I repair Computor cars for a living and it is my specialty. Carbed as well as all types of fuel injection. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2205 Registered: 2-2001 |
Horsepower is not what will be the biggest gain from a closed loop injection system. Driveability and economy and lower emissions are the gains. Imagine a 308 Ferrari that starts and idles and has the economy and emissions of a modern automobile. Additional HP will be achieved due to the fact that the timing can be adjusted from the factory settings. Keep in mind that a 308 Ferrari is now over 20 years old. Automotive systems have advanced just as much as the home PC has. Does anyone still use a 20 year old home PC? | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
New member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 35 Registered: 9-2002 |
Edward...Did you use the stock crank sensors or did you change to a g.m. style? How is the throttle response of the engine? I assume it would be much quicker. I prefer to use a mass air flow set up mainly because it can self calibrate to engine modifications(with in reason)with out having to burn a new computer prom chip. Also many manufacture's have returned to mass air flow over speed density because it's alot more accurate than say a m.a.p sensor on an early corvette. Just look at the newer ferrari's,they have always been mass air cars. What kind of fuel pressure are you running? I would think 35psi would be a good start. And last question how much modification to the injector bosses did you have to do to get the b.m.w injectors to fit? | ||
| Timothy Fulmer (Tf308)
New member Username: Tf308 Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2002 |
Check out this site... http://www.pem.com.au/porsche.htm they converted a 930 w. CIS to the electronic. First of all, they talk about getting rid of the fuel accumulator and replacing it w. a unit on here. Someone w. more knowledge than myself, please check it out and see what else we would need. Also has dyno numbers. What HP gain do you think we could gain in going to the system in a QV? I would hate to spend 3-4K and gain only 10HP. Might as well same the cash and buy this 930 | ||
| Timothy Fulmer (Tf308)
New member Username: Tf308 Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ed, Why do you think the closed loop would be so beneficial? Any ideas as to what HP gain you could expect in going to this on a 308QV? | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2204 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mass airflow meters obsolete? They are the latest and greatest devices on the modern automobile! There is a big difference between an airflow meter and a mass airflow meter. You must be confusing it with something else. The Throttle position sensor does tell the ECM what position the throttle plate is in by a varying voltage as well as an on /off idle switch depending on the application. It also determines the shift points for the transmission, idle speed, and power enrichment. A closed loop fuel injection system on a 308 would be the best thing ever to happen to a 308 | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2836 Registered: 2-2001 |
I'm in the process of going to a Tec3 in this 308 ridiculouso modificato thing I'm doing. I'm doing it with Nick Scianna, so I'll tell you guys how it goes. I would like to do it all myself, but not enough time with school and he obviously knows a but about them. btw, no more tec2 made anymore. This stuff isn't cheap though and quite a bit of work so I would personally only do it when doing engine mods, but it would obviously add to a stock one too if someone wanted. | ||
| Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member Username: 350hpmondial Post Number: 189 Registered: 2-2002 |
Tom, In my opinion, mass flow sensors are obsolete. The newer Lambda feed back systems, with the throttle position sensor are much better. Note; I have been told that the throttle position sensor does not really teel the computer where the butterfly is, but just that it is moving more open or more shut.  | ||
| Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member Username: 350hpmondial Post Number: 188 Registered: 2-2002 |
Tom, This was performed "before" the turbo was added to my car. I hear my car was driven for approximately 6 months in Normally Asperated mode with great results. The turbo was then added for additional fun. The injectors are for a 3.0 Liter BMW, The fuel rails are standard aftermarket. (Edelbrock ... ..etc.) Note the welding at the inlet extension. The fuel management sensors are all GM. The ECM "brain" is an older fully programable Haltech E6. I am unable to add my picture at this time, search under NORWOOD in this website, you should be able to find a pic of my engine. Fun,, fun,,, fun | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2001 |
I would suggest looking in to the Ford injection for something like a mustang 302. This system not only can be adapted but has such a wide selection of after market parts. Everything from computer chips to 100's of mass flow sensors. If I was going to try it, I would start with the ford system because its so versital. Sounds like a great plan. I would love to help out with some ideas on the conversion. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 372 Registered: 4-2002 |
That's not early. Your basic dual distr early 308 has no vacuum advance. Just the mechanical rpm related centrifical weight advance. | ||
| J. R. Vallandingham (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Ineresting comment about fuel ecomony. I've thought that economy suffers on early cars because there is no vacuum advance for the spark.<< How early ? All injected cars 'did/do' have vacum advance. That's what the vacum hose to the Digiplex's is for. | ||
| Timothy Fulmer (Tf308)
New member Username: Tf308 Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2002 |
Probably would cost about $3000 from electromotive. Check out www.getfuelinjected.com I have been toying w. the idea for my 84 QV. I just wonder how many HP I can pick up for 3K. I have to think that just routing the air in differently has to be more efficient than running through that CIS tube. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 368 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ineresting comment about fuel ecomony. I've thought that economy suffers on early cars because there is no vacuum advance for the spark. Has to hurt a bunch. With these electonic systems, it can be programmed in. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2201 Registered: 2-2001 |
It would probably be a worthwhile project and the driveability would be 100% better than the carbs or CIS injection. Would probably double the fuel economy too. I would have added this option had I kept mine. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 519 Registered: 3-2001 |
I looked into it before. The Tec-II by EM looked like a good choice. It would also make the ignition direct fire. There is a Haltech F9 that was strictly for FI too that was nice. TWM induction makes throttle bodies but they are kind of high and they want to use the Weber linkages. Since yours is an i I am not sure what they would use. It was going to be fairly high $$$ even for the parts. You can make it closed or open loop with idle up circuit. HTHs. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
New member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2002 |
I was toying with the idea of putting in fully electronic fuel injection(electric injectors,mass airflow sensor etc.)into my 308. Do you guys know of anybody who has done this? I know Norwood does this, but I would like to attempt this myself using off the shelf parts for service reasons. I realize intake manifold and throttle body modifications will have to be made. Thoughts? |