| Author | Message | ||
| J W Avery (Boxerlover)
New member Username: Boxerlover Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2002 |
FWIW...Don't overlook the possibility of water in the gas, a common problem in cold climate. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 901 Registered: 1-2001 |
KMX, How did your tech come to this conclusion? Altho not impossible, I would be a bit leary of this diagnosis. -Ben | ||
| JB CVT (Palmetto_tr)
New member Username: Palmetto_tr Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2002 |
my tr acted the same way, it ended up being the stater and selenoid. the starter would just click but the car would not turn over. my mechanic stopped by and he just gently tapped the starter selenoid and it unstuck what ever was the problem and the car turned over. awaiting my new starter. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 95 Registered: 8-2002 |
Before I would spend 5g on this I would go thru a few checks, from what your wrench is saying it seems some major damage occured, I dont see how just starting the engine, you would have had to jumped cam timing considerably to cause contact Harborfreight.com sells a spark checker for about $5 its a clear see through adapter you put on your plug wire and plug and while cranking you will see a spark that will tell you if your ign sys is okay Next would be fuel are the pumps running etc, I would remove some plugs after cranking to see if they are wet with fuel If you initally had a spark prob and you kept cranking you may have fouled your plugs Id checkfor that also FWIW I would never jump a F Car too many fragile expensive things to fry If all that checks out maybe your wrench is correct but I'd exhaust everything else you can do yourself first | ||
| Michael * (Kmx)
New member Username: Kmx Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2002 |
OK, So the mechanic has had it for a couple days to look at it, and now I get an estimate for nearly $5k! Go figure. Still thinks the camshaft or timing belt, or something has "jumped a tooth", says the compression is slightly higher on one side and seems to think there could be cylinder damage. I'm going to pass him your sugestions before I agree to anything. Also, timing belt was changed 7500 miles ago (12000km). The time has been 5 years.. mechanic claims its necessary to change every 2 years, regardless of mileage -- is that true? If so, then I suppose this work is necessary regardless if its the problem or not.. but, hrm. Here's what he wants to do: "Dismount engine, dismount intake manifold, exhaust manifold, injection system, timing belt and cover and left cylinder head. Examine the cylinder head the valves and camshafts. Re-assemble cylinder head on engine block with valves and camshafts. Mount injection system, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, timing belt and cover. Mount engine in car. Start up engine, check for leaks" -- $3350 gaskets, belts, valves, etc. -- $900 "Machine engine works" Grinding the cylinder head & valves Milling valveseats Measure valve guides Dismount and Assemble valves -- $700 I'm asking him to email me a summary of what he thinks the problem is, rather than what he wants to do, and I will paste that here when I get it. --- Robert, she looks good! Its nice to see you on here as well! --- Thanks guys, Michael | ||
| JB CVT (Palmetto_tr)
New member Username: Palmetto_tr Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2002 |
I JUST STARTED HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM.(86 TR) ONE DAY IT WORKED, THE NEXT DAY(COLD AND WET) IT BEHAVED THE SAME WAY. I'LL START WITH YOUR SUGGESTIONS | ||
| Robert Rothschild (Rothschild)
New member Username: Rothschild Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2002 |
Michael, so glad to see you on F-chat from across the pond. Hope your move went well, glad to see that you acquired a stunning replacement for the car I acquired from you. She remains in good hands and is used almost daily as intended by Enzo. Take care and keep in touch! Robert  | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2259 Registered: 2-2001 |
If the right side ignition module fails the engine will start and run for a second or two. If the left one fails the engine will run on the left bank only. I would try swapping the modules and see if anything changes. These Marelli modules are FAILURE PRONE. They are located under a small cover above each ignition coil. Make sure you use some silicone dialectric grease on the mounting surfaces to dissipate the heat. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 716 Registered: 4-2001 |
Mike, Be careful. Like Coachi says -- a simple relay or losse wire could do just what is described. I would stand there, have them change the cold start relay without touching anything else, then start it. If that doesn't work the second thing, there are two plugs on top of the engine, right between alternator and condensor. The one on the right sometimes gets loose and causes an erraqtic idle. make sure those two clips are on tight, secure and clean before digging further. Hope this helps. Michael | ||
| Michael * (Kmx)
New member Username: Kmx Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2002 |
Well, a mechanic finally had a chance to come out and take a look at it. The clicking problem was merely the new battery being low. We cleaned everything out again, pulled the plugs (very fouled) and cleaned them. He jumped it and tried starting but all he managed to get it to do was half start (as I did -- sounded like a helicoptor again).. he said it sounds "expensive" and he wants to have it towed to his shop for further analysis.. he said his gut feeling was that the timing belt had slipped a couple of positions, but I hardly see how anything serious could've happened; car worked fine, turn car off, car doesn't work. I'll make sure he checks the cold start relay, but would that make any difference if it won't fully start at all? This guy came highly recommended by the local lamb/ferr dealer, but I hope he doesn't turn out to be the "typical ferrari mechanic" who wants to replace everything before trying the simple things. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 110 Registered: 5-2002 |
sounds like aproblem i had.. i spent 5 grand to fix this simple problem (in my case) a relay that energizes the cold start fuel injectors was bad. There is a box under the right rear fender, and it is a long relay. Porsche has the same relay, i think. Worth a try... | ||
| Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
Junior Member Username: Kurtk328 Post Number: 154 Registered: 3-2001 |
The clicks and other indications indicate a low battery condition or a poor connection somewhere in the main circuit. Is your new battery completely charged? As soon as the starter circuit is being activated and drawing power, the voltage drops just enough for the solenoid to let go and deactivate the starter. Then the voltage rises again and activates the solenoid, the loads increases, voltage drops, solenoid releases and so on. | ||
| Michael * (Kmx)
New member Username: Kmx Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2002 |
My helper is back now, so I can try checking for spark from the coil. I also bought a new battery (550CCA since its so cold here) & some starter fluid just in case. ** However, sometime after the switch melted the starter (or process of getting power to the starter) stopped also (thought it was my battery giving up again).. I turn the key and all I get is a bunch of clicks, rapidly flickering lights on the display panel and my leadlamps also turn on but do not rise. Problem continues every time I try to start the car and persists to freak out until I disconnect the main power to the fuse panel (or I assume disconnecting the battery). Think something got fried when the battery-cut-switch melted? Could my new ground not be sufficient to support the load of the starter? Everything else seems to work fine on the car (until I try to start it)... Thanks guys! | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1161 Registered: 1-2001 |
Michael* -- (before over-stressing the primary wiring) you (or someone) really need to follow Ed G's advice and confirm whether or not you're getting a reasonable spark pattern (at the coil output) during cranking to direct the investigation towards ignition or injection problems. Perhaps you've already done this, but there are two plug-in (ignition stuff) connectors on the LH (US driver's side) of the engine bay (a squarish one and a round one IIRC) that could be unplugged-clean-reseated. The (usually white) pigtails coming of the flywheel rotation sensors are in the same area so checking/reseating those connectors couldn't hurt. But bottom-line is if there's no spark during cranking you need to get that working before looking elsewhere. | ||
| Michael * (Kmx)
New member Username: Kmx Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hey, Ben, thanks for the encouragement- I need it! Nice car, btw, looks familiar  . I just moved from Sausalito so the view made me miss it a little. Anyway, I pulled the distributor covers off and all the spark plug wires off and blew them out with an air hose (until the air hose decided to start blowing water), but I didn't see any visible water.. tried starting again -- sounded a little more promising, but nothing. ran the battery dead again (I should get more than a few minutes out of one shouldn't I -- maybe I should buy a new one while I'm at it?), used my saab to try a jump start and managed to melt the battery shut off switch and nearly catch the surrounding carpet on fire (maybe its not a good idea to turn that off when charging ?). Called a local ferrari mechanic, he said it was only for the ground and to just jump it or try bolting the wires to the same post on the back of the switch - did that and the car has power again.. now its back to charging the battery again. Gah. I'm just waiting for this piece of crap european sissy battery charger to die on me. I'm going to go see if I can find some ether/starter fluid and give that a try when the battery has more umph. How much should I spray in there? Enough to coat everything, just a quick spray, enough to have droplets on the bottom ?? Or maybe I should try cleaning the plugs first.. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 848 Registered: 1-2001 |
Michael, Starting Fluid = Ether (chemical name). Maybe one of your throttle plates became unstuck when you pressed on the pedal? Would be hard (but not impossible) for it to be flooded (just highly unlikely). Maybe its running on only one bank? Still too hard to tell just by descriptions alone....There are some electrical connections that can be kinda delicate, so that maybe something to consider also. Keep us posted (and keep up the improving luck). -Ben P.S. when I had starting probs with my car the Starting fluid saved my arse many a time, until we could hunt down the actual problem (casuing the failure to start) - yes it can be dangerous, but it was either that or get a tow every time I left the house. http://www.prestone.com/products/32.htm http://library.cbest.chevron.com/lubes/compprd9.nsf/c88c682625e06af6882568db00737ce8/bcd0622372ead04c882563a10073e663?OpenDocument | ||
| Michael * (Kmx)
New member Username: Kmx Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2002 |
fresh gas didn't seem to help. got it to "start" (more like almost start) again by pumping the pedal about 4 times a second.. as soon as I stop doing that it dies.. hmrph. | ||
| Michael * (Kmx)
New member Username: Kmx Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2002 |
Its morning now and I went out to try again (now that the battery is charged).. after trying for a minute or so I decided to try pressing a little gas (I know, its injected) and after a few seconds it, uh, started. Didn't sound like a testarossa, but an apache! It seemed like the second I let off the gas it died. I had repeat success about 30 seconds later.. now I'm feeling bad for my starter so I'm giving it a little break. Do you guys think the noise was because only some cylinders were firing, because it may be flooded, its cold, got some bad gas, or another reason? Just for good measure I'll go buy a little new gas to mix in.. I'm not sure if I can find starter fluid here (Sweden) or if I should risk it until we figure out if its necessary. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
New member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2002 |
Be extremly careful when using starting fluid...If the car backfires through the intake you could be hurt...or in my case blow apart the intake!!(happened to me on a 92 Lambo Diablo that would not start. Scary!!)I know longer use any starting fluid on anything to scary!! | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2207 Registered: 2-2001 |
You are going to have to find out what the engine lacks to run. Check for a spark by removing one of the coil wires from one of the coils and hold it about a quarter inch from the coil terminal and have someone start the car and see if there is a spark. If there is spark you can then try some of the starting fluid. | ||
| J. R. Vallandingham (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2002 |
I hate the stuff, however it can be helpful in emergencies. "Starting Fluid"...(...spray some into the intake, liberal amount, but not too much ...if there is spark...the engine will at least sputter...perhaps even start...if it still won't start or at least fire on a few cylnders...it means the ignition system got wet. If the engine starts with starting fluid it means the ignition system is throwing at least some spark and your problem might be fuel related.. | ||
| Michael * (Kmx)
New member Username: Kmx Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2002 |
I had my TR out of the garage and woke up to it being covered with frost. I decided to bath it with warm-hot water to melt all the frost off and for a general cleaning. Tried starting it the next morning and it wouldn't start. Only starter noise. Assumed it was too cold (20's F) and so I put some heaters around her and waited until the afternoon when everything was defrosted. Still wouldn't start. Checked fuses, banged relays (didn't try jumping the relays yet). Now I'm beginning to think the hot water either made its way into something or caused some condensation somewhere. Tried disconnecting the cold-start electroinjectors (as others had success with in the forum).. briefly tried using a hair dryer to dry out any possible moisture but wasn't sure where to focus my energy (plugs, distributor, coils, ?) and by this time a good 10 hours had went by and I was numb... any suggestions? give it time? The intention was to move it to the winter garage but now its stranded in my driveway subject to being frosted over every night.... what a sad sight. |