| Author |
Message |
BRIAN FAHERTY (Brian)
New member
Username: Brian
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 7:33 pm: | |
Hi
Thanks for all your help. However I chickened out of changing my pump. I do lots of stuff on my car but I don't touch the engine and trany.
John at IFS rebuilt my pump and although saved me some money the finished job cost me a grand.
I look forward to 20,000 miles on this pump Ha-Ha.
I was glad I put the car in the shop because the bearing was rusted and the ballbearings were worn out. I have the bearing sitting on my desk. was thinking about making necklace out of it and giving to my wife, after all it cost me $1000.00
I got kicked of the chat line at work, so will write you guys as often as I can.
Later
Brian |
Peter Delaney (Delaney)
New member
Username: Delaney
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 10:03 pm: | |
Could someone please give me the contact numbers of the 'Dutchman' & 'Jaguar' re. refurbished complete water pumps or kits to do it myself. Or any other useful numbers for a source.
Thanks & best regards,
Pete |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 433
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 12:00 am: | |
If you don't go for the Forza pump. I recommend rebuilding it yourself.
Had my pump go 3 yrs. ago, just after I got my car. Rebuilding it was very straightforward. Got a kit from T.Rutlands for ~$100. Actual rebuild took about an hour, maybe 30 min(max) to remove & replace. But then I'm a seasoned shade tree mechanic...
The 308 GTB Register's TechTips section has a detailed water pump rebuild procedure:
http://www.r-design.net/308/techtip6.htm
A couple of tips that aren't in the write-up:
1) Wait until you've got your pump apart to order the bearings & seal. You're going to have to measure the bearings (there were 2 sized), & the seal (2 sizes again). (Hmm, noticed that yours is an '87. That narrows it down. Definitely the large bearings, & I think the large seal. Better check on the seal tho.) Believe the tech tip may have cut-in dates.
2) Check your pump housing for cracks. Especially around the bearings. This is about the only cause of rebuild failures. Check it again after you've got it all apart & cleaned up.
3)Once you've got the outer bearing out, thoroughly clean out the inside of the gap between the bearings BEFORE YOU PRESS THE INNER BEARING OUT. Corrosion & mineral deposits will have built up on the inner walls between the bearings. If you try to press the inner bearing out thru/over these deposits YOU WILL CRACK THE WATER PUMP HOUSING.
I washed mine out with parts cleaner to get all the grease residue out. Then, I used a ~1-1/2" round wire brush chucked in an electric drill to remove anything that wasn't shiny aluminum & spread a thin film of white lithium grease on the inner walls to lubricate the race of the bearing being pressed out. Once it broke loose, my inner bearing practicly lept out of the housing!!!
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Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 70
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 10:47 am: | |
The referance was the post by Tom as Nick's pumps priced at $5oo. It did not clarify that they were not just rebuilt. Kinda like comparing a Ford to a Ferrari on price alone....I rework the pumps for Nick's Forza Ferrari. Each one I do as though it is my own, and that I will be enjoying the Power. Seeking upper levels of performance is a passion. Not a punch the timeclock kind of thing. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3461
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 10:43 pm: | |
OK Matt, What is the scoop $ wise. |
Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 69
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 8:52 pm: | |
Hey guys,
I gotta jump in a bit and defend the price on pumps. I am the one who Ports the Pumps for the Forza. Just as porting a set of heads improves performance by smoothing the flow, water is a much heavier "liquid". I install a non Ferrari, latest state of the art stainless steel seal, as opposed to the stock, old style brass. The same with the bearings, except they get a special grease additive that further reduces friction. Even the thermostat housing is polished inside.
Yes, they are more than a rebuild as far as cost in dollars goes, but they do improve performance
and we do not cut corners on parts that go into them as a rebuild house does. No assembly line,
a Master Builder personally does each one. Cheap, and Quality do not come in the same box! |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
New member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 3:38 pm: | |
The water pump on Qv engines are easier to do than on 2valve engines. The timming covers are slightly differant allowing accsess to the 4 water pump bolts with out removing the timming gards. Of corse the accsesory belts must be removed and the 2 hoses at the rear of the pump under the intake must be unclamped alon with the the coolant intake hose at the t-stat housing. Don't forget to replace the o-ring. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2164
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 12:48 am: | |
Hans, you should replace the shaft if its corroded (most critically where the seal sits on it). Otherwise, re-use it. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3440
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 12:42 am: | |
Brian, Peter is correct you can rebuild the pump for a lot less but I know you expressed in your post topic "Should I install it." Maybe you don't want to get the deep into it. I think though you could install it. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 429
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 12:42 am: | |
I heard the shaft should be replaced as well, as it is integral w/ the seal. Correct? Or am I all wet? (gee, I think that was an accidental pun!) |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2163
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 12:36 am: | |
You can rebuild a pump for less
28.50 UK pounds for the seal
$12.88 Cdn each for the bearings
That's it. |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 524
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 10:14 am: | |
The rebuild kit that I looked at was $99. I would save some money and DIY. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3422
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 10:10 am: | |
Brian, I guess anybody can get a bad one. And I guess if I were rebuilding the pumps I would also say that they were 99.9%. You could say that he was the 1%. It is that I helped, basicly installed the pump, and had to pull it off again to send it back. Then re-install it when we got it back. Just ticked me off since I was helping the guy out. The second one did work though. The Flying Dutchmans prices do seem to be pretty good as you have indicated. Where is this Jaguar place. Are they near you locally? If so and you don't have to have mail order it they probably would be ok. Here is one more suggestion, I have dealt with these people and I have been very pleased with everything I have gotten from them. Price and service. Call G,T. Car Parts ask for Bill or Dave, 1-623-780-2200 |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 421
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 9:53 am: | |
Brian,
when my water pump went south on my 77 308 I bought a new one from T. Rutlands for a very good price...
Yes I could have rebuilt my old one, but I wanted the newer style with the improved bearing.
Timing covers will have to come off and the A/C compressor will need to be moved out of the way, it's also a good time to inspect your cam belts.
|
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 380
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 9:44 am: | |
pressing in new bearings and impeller and stuff on ther old unit |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1635
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 9:20 am: | |
don't forget nick's which are I think 500 |
BRIAN FAHERTY (Brian)
New member
Username: Brian
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 9:16 am: | |
Matt
when you say "rebuild" are you bolting on the new unit or are you pressing in new bearings and impeller and stuff on ther old unit?
Magoo
talked to Tony the flying dutchman yesterday. He said his pumps are 99.9%. I guess your friend is the .1%. What do you think? New or rebuilt
New from rutlands $625
rebuild Rutlands $395
Rebuild Dutchman $225
rebuild jaguar place $219
all include gaskets and help(Directions and diagrams).
What do you think?
Brian |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 379
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 8:23 am: | |
The old impeller looked like a pizza with the normal pizza cut lines. The new one looks like a sprial. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3413
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 12:09 am: | |
In Hemmings "The Flying Dutchman" claims that his pumps are the best rebuilds and he charges for them also. Has anybody tried his pumps? I have a friend who got a pump from him and it leaked as soon as he started the engine. Oh yeah, Just send it back to us and we will re-re-build it again for you. |
Scott Anderson (Srandrsn)
Junior Member
Username: Srandrsn
Post Number: 151
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 9:35 pm: | |
Matt, what's with the improved impeller? I'm rebuilding mine (80) and found it has a brass impeller... I took that to be a "previous update" but is there something more I should update to now... fin design...? Thanks |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 372
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 7:02 pm: | |
If it still works and does not leak, you should be fine. The original water pump has a inefficient pump impeller. You might notice that the car gets warmer then most at times. I'd change it just to be on the safe side at the next 15,000 service. Or in your case...at 60k |
Steve (Steve)
Junior Member
Username: Steve
Post Number: 212
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 6:59 pm: | |
Guys what kind of milage are you getting on a water pump ? I'm concerned that I'm living on borrowed time here with my 77'. I've got 45K on it and still the orig. pump.So what kind of life does this have? Also I have seen adds in Hemmings that claim they have a better water pump but who makes/rebuilds the best at lowest cost. Thanks |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 360
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:14 am: | |
I rebuilt mine in a few hours. Super easy.
The kit was $179 from Italian car parts.
It came with the improved impeller. |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1623
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:11 am: | |
why can't your mechanic rebuild it or have nick do it. still cost you 400 with labor but better than 1k |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 521
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:02 am: | |
I think that you will have to remove both timing belt covers to get it off. That is how it is on the 308s anyway. This involves moving the compressor out of the way too. You could save a lot of money but at the same time there are other items that have to be removed that you should consider. HTHs.
I think you should try it. You are saving almost $800. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3408
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 8:37 am: | |
Brian, I guess wanting to do it is 1/2 the battle. Not a lot of special tools needed just common sense. If you use the basic tools working on cars you probably won't have a problem. And after all you have all of those great tech. minds on the F.C. to help you! |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1621
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 7:27 am: | |
an 87 mondial and a 328 should be the same proccess as the engine is the same |
Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member
Username: Lawrence
Post Number: 364
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 6:45 am: | |
I did mine on my 328 this past spring. I like to do things myself, especially when I save a lot of money. Plus, it is satisfying. I consider it 'beating the system'.
Can't comment on how difficult it would be because yours is a Mondial. Mine was not difficult. If you do it, be sure to bleed your system. You should take a close look at your thermostat while you are at it. |
BRIAN FAHERTY (Brian)
New member
Username: Brian
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 6:20 am: | |
Hi
I put my 87 Mondial in the shop for a shift seal and a fluid service, going to be around a grand when he is done.
I told him I smell antifreeze. Might be the pump. $700 for the pump and 4 hours labor,wow another grand.
Called a number in hemmings and got a price for a better than new rebuild for $219 w gaskets.
Question is should I try to install it myself.I'm handy but not a mechanic.
Reason I want to do this is the car had a pump at 21000 miles and noew needs one at 44000mi.
thanks in advance for your response.
Brian |