| Author | Message | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2002 |
To answer your questions somewhat: The belts are different and have different part numbers. Materials and Manufacturing techniques improve with time. Experience is gained from practical application and millions of miles logged. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2272 Registered: 2-2001 |
Probably better quality of belt material since the engines are essentially the same. Belt material gets better all the time. By the way the Same Subaru publication calls for replacing the timing belt at 105,000 miles or 105 months which is ummmm 8years and 9 months. | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Junior Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2001 |
Thanks everyone for the info. There's still one(ish) question that I didn't yet see answered: "So, what changed between 79 and 80 to change the interval to 52,500? Aren't the 2 valve motors essentially the same, except for the induction system? Are the belts different part numbers? Or maybe the factory was more confident in the belts by then?" Any ideas? Does anyone have a manual for the 2 years that shows the part number for the belts? | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2262 Registered: 2-2001 |
I do not know if anyone can read this but in the newest Subaru trade magazine, there is an article about insuring that the timing belt guides are in place to prevent belt jumping if the engine turns backward. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2261 Registered: 2-2001 |
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| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2260 Registered: 2-2001 |
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| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 101 Registered: 6-2001 |
JRV, Loved your "chain drive 308" solution! Laughed my a** off over that one! Makes sense to me. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3529 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hey guys, When you drive one of these cars, "YOU GOTTA HAVE THE FAITH." | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 110 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Ed, I believe you buddy. No one said it didn't happen exactly as you say it did. Just that in the experience of others the same thing hadn't been encountered. It's like Aliens and Ghosts, plenty of people say the saw/see them. I believe them, heck why not. I personaly haven't seen them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The point was, the burden of proof to call something fact is "repeatable, verifiable results", meaning, one needs a controled environment and conditions and should be able to create the same result more than once in a row, repeatable, verifiable results. Like a 2 way run at Bonniville, to go in the record books. Doesn't mean it can't or didn't happen once, it means not enough evidence exists to classify something as a fact. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2243 Registered: 2-2001 |
Just turn a 308 engine backwards and feel the slack that comes up on the timing belt and you will be shocked. This is why the manuals always stress to only turn the engine in the normal direction of rotation. If one of these engines diesels or fires at the wrong time such as with a defective ignition module then it can and has happened to jump a tooth and usually happens to the forward bank. I personally believe the slack in the belt comes from the end of the camshaft flexing due to it's long length from the last bearing. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 742 Registered: 3-2001 |
I had the cam belt discussion with Bob Norwood a couple of yrs ago. He said in all the F-cars he's serviced over the years, he's only had 2 cars come in with blown belts. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>I guess I could tell some tales that I have run up on over the years <<< So could we !!!! I can tell tales to prove my points as well as the next guy!!! However !!!! The "telling of tales" in no way constitutes valid, undeniable, definative, irefutable PROOF that a belt was not loose before it jumped!!!! So imo it stands that a belt that jumps for any reason (all other things equal) was loose. Literally 1000's of 308's, carbed and injected have been driven and revved up, missing like a ••••• and missing with antifreeze from a blown hose or oil from a leak without jumping. I've seen idiots revving the snot and driving the snot outa carbed 308's trying to find their screw up, which turned out to be 1 distrib 60 degrees off without a belt jumping. So is there a point to this? Theoretically it can happen. In practical application a belt can't jump unless it's loose, the gears are worn out, or one of the reciprcating parts is stopped suddenly while in motion. Cars are science, not magic. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 386 Registered: 4-2002 |
Both of used the word 'never' in the sense that neither of us (in our experience) had witnessed such an occurrence. Neither of us said it would never happen. Read the post. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2242 Registered: 2-2001 |
I guess I could tell some tales that I have run up on over the years that you would not believe. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1727 Registered: 9-2001 |
Isn't this site great - I would probably pay to hear two car nuts like JRV and Ed discuss cars over a few beers. Hey where are the beers?  No guys I don't need your address to send the check | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 102 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Trust me never say never about an automobile, anything can happen at any time.<<< Ed, I subscibe to that very same philosophy !!! The difference is I also believe that there is 'a reason' for everything, we just don't always know what that "real reason" is. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2241 Registered: 2-2001 |
I had a digiplex module to give a problem and yes it did backfire and fart and yes it did jump a tooth on the front bank. Trust me never say never about an automobile, anything can happen at any time. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>I've never heard any of my fuel injected cars ever backfire, and I've racked up about .5M miles <<< I've heard of it either, and never seen a carbed car with "TRULEY" proper belt tension jump. The problem is everything is theoreticaly possible, so trying to win this type of arguement is pretty futile....LOL. And the more vivid the imagination and more vocal one side or the other is the longer it would drag on. I just cut to the bottom line....out of the probably 1000 plus 308's I've put belts on in the last 25 years, I've never ever had one jump. Maybe proper tension is different in different circles? | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 383 Registered: 4-2002 |
I've never heard any of my fuel injected cars ever backfire, and I've racked up about .5M miles on them if I add up the odometers since the early 1980's. I think carburated engines are more prone to that. I think there is far less chance of a belt slipping with fuel injected cars because of their low propensity for backfiring. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2911 Registered: 2-2001 |
And then there are people like me that had oil soaked belts, mis-tensioned on the one bank, and ran fine. I never ran it real hard though (max rpm around 6500). After this rebuild I will be much more confident and run it like it should be run. Ferrari has come a long way with the belt systems, the 308 (328, can't remember 348s or not) are kind of sketchy, very shallow teeth and although they seem to work for the most part, still nothing like the system Ed has made up which is like the newer Ferrari stuff. I think if you stay on top of the 308 systems they wont give you trouble, but if you let them go they wont be as resilient to neglect as the newer ones are. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2238 Registered: 2-2001 |
I would not bother washing the belt because there is no way to get the saturated oil out and more damage could result. I have seen perfectly good properly tensioned belts jump on a Ferrari due to the design and potential for backfiring and the engine turning backward for a split second. It happened to my own car and thus started the new belt system project. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 382 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'd think slippage is unlikely if the teeth remain intact unless the belt is woefully loose or unless something gets between the belt and pulley. As soon as the drive pulley turns, it tightens the belt on all the cogged pulleys with what little extra there is going to the undriven side of the pulleys. It's generally the teeth shearing off that causes the problems. Once the engine warms up, the pulleys get a little farther apart, perhaps 0.025 inch which means 0.050 inch tightening neglecting the belt growth that is much less because it is steel and is cooler than the block. Aluminum expands 50% more than steel per degree. And the block is much hotter than the belt. With petroleum products on the belt, all bets are off. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 455 Registered: 4-2002 |
Oops. It seems our posts crossed. What about washing the belt until I can get it in to get fixed? Good or bad idea? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 94 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yea...;-)...or hold it up to the phone and let us listen to it... ; 0 ) | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 454 Registered: 4-2002 |
So your saying, JRV, "Hold it up to the screen so I can see it." What about washing with mild detergent and water until I can get it repaired? Good or bad idea? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2002 |
should read...'like Edward pointed out" | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hans, Sure it's theoreticaly possible. However,if the belts are to the proper tension they don't just slip. The rubber coating is to insulate the polyglass cords that actualy do the work and the cords don't stretch, which is why proper tension is so important. If installed very tight on a cold engine, the motor will expand as it heats up, but the belts don't because they have no give causing noise, heat, wear, premature failure.. Plenty of belt driven cam motors have been driven miles & miles with oil or antifreeze on them without slipping. However, like Hans pointed out, you are asking for a judgement call from guys that can't literally 'see' what the nature of your situation is, not possible to do. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 453 Registered: 4-2002 |
Edward: What about slippage if the teeth remain intact? | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2237 Registered: 2-2001 |
I would not assume anything about a Ferrari. Oil seems to impregnate a timing belt when exposed to it and it usually will lead to the teeth being stripped from the belt instead of it actually breaking. How long it will last or how much oil it takes? Only Miss Cleo knows for sure. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 450 Registered: 4-2002 |
OK, let's assume for the moment that the structural integrity of the belt hasn't been compromised by a slight amount of oil. 1. Is the belt likely to slip? The belt doesn't feel slippery at all, the dust is just a little sticky. 2. I probably can't get it fixed for a couple of months. As a temporary measure, could I wash it with some mild detergent and water? (Looks like I might have to Saran wrap the alternator....) | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm with Ed on this Hans. Any contaminant on the belts is not a good thing. Do the belts die right away >> no. You need to find the source of contaminant leak and eliminate it. Older 308 can develop leaks at the crank pulley seal and the cam belt drive gear seals. Of course the upper cam seals and VC gaskits. Upper cam seals should have been replaced with the updated Double Lip design (if not make sure you do so next time) that insure a much better, longer lasting seal. In hard cases you can add Dye Penetrant to the 710 and check with a black light after an adequate number of miles. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2233 Registered: 2-2001 |
Verell, the pulleys came from my personal 82 engine. If you have a drive and cam pulley for a 4 valve engine that you could send me then I can match the specs. Matt, that is the engine model number. I need the engine serial number. Hans, any oil is a belt killer. Find the source as it will destroy the belt. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 447 Registered: 4-2002 |
JRV: What about *slight* oil on cam belts? Fix it or forget it? The black dust on the forward belt is a little sticky, not dry and powdery like on the rear belt. Problem? (Belt is about 4 years, and 10,000 miles old.) FWIW, I can't find the source of the oil. Both cam ends are completely dry, as are the crankshaft and cam cover seals. Cam drive is a possibility, but no oil is dripping/flowing downward from it. Can't see it directly, tho. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 435 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ed, What engine did the plastic cam gears I bought in your your'misc engine parts' eBay item come from? The numbers molded into the gears looked very familiar. I think you said it was an '82 which I suspect means it's from an injected 2 valve. Reason I'm asking is because I'm about 80+% sure my QV engine has the same plastic cam gears. When I get a chance, I'll look at the pix I took when I did my major service/timing bearing job. Maybe one of them has legible pully numbers. If I'm right, then your cam belt system should fit a QV. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>There is no way they could get the bonnet on that car so I guess they run it with out. Looks like a p/u truck.<<< If you're talking about the 308 I built with the V-12 sidewinder you would be wrong sport. If you're not, then excuse meeeeeee....;-) | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3504 Registered: 2-2001 |
There is no way they could get the bonnet on that car so I guess they run it with out. Looks like a p/u truck. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 447 Registered: 8-2002 |
F106 AE | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2232 Registered: 2-2001 |
I would need the engine number to tell you for sure. The drive pulleys are different on earlier engines. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 442 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ed, Would your belt system work on a 78 as well? m | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2002 |
LOL...yea if you want chain drive on a 308 instead of re-inventing the wheel, you just put an existing chain drive motor in. No more belt worries.  | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2899 Registered: 2-2001 |
Is that a 12 cylinder conversion? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2002 |
Who had asked about Chain Drives for 308's ? There actualy is a chain drive system I did a few years ago for a client. Here's a pic of the finished system.  | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 452 Registered: 2-2001 |
A note regarding the TR timing belt changing schedule: As some of you already mentioned, the Owner's manual states that the belts should be replaced every 52.5 Kmi. However, that disagress with the Work Shop manual that specifies that the belts should be replaced every 30K mi. My 1990 TR had a little over 20K mi. when I personally changed the belts. The belts had no visible damage. They appear to be as flexible and in good condition as the new pair that I put in. After 12 years, aging and 20K mi wear did not appear to be an issue. Anyway, although it might not have been necessary to change them yet, I now feel much better knowing that I did. Now that I have a new set of belts I will probably wait at least the 30K mi. the WSM specifies before my next replacement. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 284 Registered: 1-2002 |
I had a 85 308 where the owner's manual included a factory insert advising people to change the belts every 2 years regardless of mileage. A former Ferrari dealer told me this came about when a TR owner had service done by the book, then had a belt failure. He sued and won. After that, the factory told dealers to at least recommend belt changes at 3 year intervals to avoid further costs. This is all hearsay, but it is plausible. I bought a 85 308 in '99 with 30K on it and the original belts. The belts looked fine, but tensioner bearings were shot and cam seals were leaking. Either condition can lead to belt failure. I think if you drove your car 15-20K a year, then 50K intervals might be fine. But hardly anyone in the US does that. Dave | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2230 Registered: 2-2001 |
The set up sells for $1200.00 including shipping. I have owned the Corvair since 1968 and it has the same fan belt that I installed in 1974. So much for time causing belt damage. If I owned a 4 valve Ferrari or any other that had the older belt design,I would have made one for them too. This project was strictly designed for one car, mine, and after everyone saw the system they also wanted one which led to further production for the 2 valve only. | ||
| Jeffrey Davison (Jeffdavison)
New member Username: Jeffdavison Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ed, a little off topic, but that's a nice "Nader Bater" in the background. Also, of you ever do the 100K belt set up for a QV Jeff Davison | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2896 Registered: 2-2001 |
The system Edward made up resembles the newer (355, 360) belts. How much did it all cost to make up Edward? I remember there was a thread awhile ago. Sometimes I think with all the money I'm putting into the 308... granted this is setup for the 2valves, but down the road a couple years when I pull the engine apart again. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 389 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ed, I wish you had that set up for other models. You would be sitting on a gold mine. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2229 Registered: 2-2001 |
While we are on the subject of timing belts, I still have one of the updated belt systems for 79-82 two valve engines that should easily give 100,000 mile service. It consists of four cam pulleys, two drive pulleys, two tensioner bearings and pulleys, and two belts.  | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2002 |
For any of you guys that never heard of 'changing the belts' at 15K, just call your local dealer or one of the thousands of used car salesman in the Ferrari Biz...tell them you have 14K miles on your Ferrari and ask what you need for service. Back in the early to mid 80's most Ferrari Dealers around the US only sold 15-20 cars a year each, that's 1 1/2 -2 cars per month. And even when waiting lists were invented with the TR's most dealers still only sold about the same per year maybe a very few more. Entire yearly production didn't break 3000 per year average until the late 80's, and the Grey Market was in full swing....so service at the dealers was hurting with a capital H....it was about the mid to late 80's that the Urban Legend of the 15K was invented. And every car since then has "always" just been serviced with the 15K -30K right before the car goes up for sale. With or without reciepts...lol. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1505 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tillman, I believe the change in intervels was due to U.S. emission warranty law changes rather than belt life. And the Boxer engine had cam belts before the 308 i believe. | ||
| VS (Vs1)
New member Username: Vs1 Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2002 |
I've actually never heard the 15K belt service urban legend. I've always heard 30K or 5 years. | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Junior Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 146 Registered: 11-2001 |
I've never heard of a 15K belt change, although low-yearly-mileage cars sometimes have that occur. I can see now where the 30K belt change requirement originated: it was original Ferrari recommendations on the early V8s. So, what changed between 79 and 80 to change the interval to 52,500? Aren't the 2 valve motors essentially the same, except for the induction system? Are the belts different part numbers? Or maybe the factory was more confident in the belts by then? Remember, the V8 was the first (I'm pretty sure) belt driven motor, so maybe the factory didn't know how the belts would wear. Thanks again for everyone's help | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Matt, my 79 308 GTS manual says the same thing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My 78 308 carb GTS stated on Page 67 to change @ 30,000 and inspect every 15,000. <<< The above was my point, so where did the Urban Legend of the 15K Belt Service come from ?? I know I didn't start it...LOL | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3497 Registered: 2-2001 |
Matt, my 79 308 GTS manual says the same thing. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 439 Registered: 8-2002 |
My 78 308 carb GTS stated on Page 67 to change @ 30,000 and inspect every 15,000. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 353 Registered: 4-2002 |
My 91' 348 now has 3200 miles and is currently fitted with its second 'replacement' belt (so its had 3 if you include the original). point being, Mileage isn't the only factor | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3492 Registered: 2-2001 |
I know this will draw a lot of criticism but just read these posts. I am a 308 owner and if there was a Corvette that had set beside my car for 18 yrs. would there be as much spent on the Corvette as was spent on bringing the Ferrari to running condition? So as it is on reg. maintenance. Now I know this upsets some of you guys but it does have merit. I guess if you love the beast you have to feed it. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2002 |
Matt, It really wouldn't matter if the belts lasted 100K miles (except to those who's belts broke :-( ), the cam seals and tensioner bearings don't last that long. I wasn't trying to suggest running belts for 50K miles or even 40K. That seems very risky, considering the cost of a valve job, if the belts don't make it that far. And belt longivity also depends on whether or how many times it's been contaminated with oil or coolant or other chemicals. There were two points that interested me enough to comment on "The Urban Legend That Refuses To Die" ie: 15K services....the first point was how few guys have actually ever read the official printed care and maintance literature and what 'it really says', and to suggest to owners that they get "their information" by reading rather than by gossip, hearsay and inuendo. IMO the more informed (truly informed) a Ferrari owner is, the better use, care and maintanance decisions he will be able to make. This is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. If some light can be shed on some of these false Urban Legends, relieving some of the fear and bringing the cost down, more people would want to own a used Ferrari and those that already own them could enjoy them even more. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 231 Registered: 6-2002 |
Tillman and JRV - your frustration over definitive information is shared by all of us that have spent a great deal of money on engine-out service. My experience on two flat 12s (Boxer and TR) was consistent - after 30,000 miles and 12-14 years the belts looked fine. Now here is the real skinny from my perspective. The belts will rarely fail catastrophically. Anyone with experience to the contrary, please step forward. What will happen is: 1) Belts will "stretch" with miles and age, thereby altering cam timing; 2) Cogs will wear, with risk of jumping a cog and consequent impact on cam timing; 3) Water corrosion of belt tension'er bearings with potential for seizure and catastrophic failure. This discussion does not address other "elective" areas, such as water pump, alternator, cam-end seal leakage, head retorqueing, shim-clearance adjustment, injector air leaks, etc. Net-net, it is probably (emphasize "probably") wise to have the service done according to factory recommendations. Frank Parker's insight (52,000 miles avoids emission warranty) is profound, as it explains the stream of causality from factory recommendation (fact) to dealer/independent admonition (myth). Thank you, Frank, for your comments. Jim S. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3484 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bill, my car had been stored in a dehumidified garage along with other classic cars. The belts looked great but who knows after running for a couple of thousand miles they may have started to crack. The other belts were replaced also. It is to little to risk so much. The bearings looked and felt ok but over time grease gets hard and congeals. So they were replaced. The brake calipers were removed and new seals replaced the system was flushed, the carbs overhauled, points plugs,water pump overhauled and new seals in the A/C compressor. Radiator flushed and new coolant installed. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 434 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV, Is there a "long life" belt for the 308 carbs? Or a belt to chain conversion? Lotus started using a 100K belt a few years ago to gain more customer trust in the maintenance/reliablility area. Seems Ferrari could use this. M | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2002 |
Magoo, When you had the belts replaced what condition were they in. I am wondering, because my car after basically sitting for 12 years, had very good looking belts. As I have posted in other links, the major problem was that the tensioner bearings were shot. What were yours like? And was your car stored inside and the conditions? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2002 |
I just opened two old owners handbooks North American Versions, 308 Carb & 308 inj. The pre 80 book specificaly states to 'replace the belts' between 25K -37,5K mi. 40K-60K kms The 308i book specificaly states to 'replace the belts @ 52,500mi. In the fine print @ the bottom of the pages it states all operations marked with an * are not required, but recommended if the car is frequently driven under unusual conditions or dusty roads. So even according to Ferrari's own published recommendations a 15 service with belts never existed...it was "invented" by dealers to pump work in the door. And the use of "FEAR" was a great motivator that has led to "The Urban Legend that Refuses To Die" , even in the face of PROOF that the factory never "PRINTED" such a Rec as a 15K..... Anyone wishing to see this for themselves, provide your fax # and I'll Fax you the Official Factory Printed service schedule. The "Time" element on a Belts reliabilty comes from the Belt Manufacturors...not Ferrari. | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Junior Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 142 Registered: 11-2001 |
Frank, do you have a cite or source for this info? Any definitive information would be very helpful in figuring this out. I do understand changing very old belts -- I guarantee I would! I'm just trying to figure out why the factory manual should be ignored. Thanks | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1499 Registered: 9-2001 |
It is my understanding that the reason Ferrari Spa. uses the 52.5k mile figure is to get around U.S. emission laws. Since the cam/timing belt is an emission item, if the factory requires it to be changed at less than 50k miles then it would be done under the emissions warranty. Since it isn't required by the factory until 52.5k miles, it is done at the owner's expense. Just another clause in the FNA Dealers Retrement Act ! | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3479 Registered: 2-2001 |
My Ferrari set for 18yrs and had only 5200 miles on it when I bought it. You can bet those belts were changed, mileage not even considered. | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2002 |
My TR manual says the same thing. 52K miles between major services. I think that time is the big factor here. I know of a 1983 BB in a shop in the north shore of boston. it has only two thousand miles. it has original belts. the shop owner didnt even want to start it up on his property until the belts were changed. Then again...I do know a ferrari shop that does very well rebuilding TR heads from broken timing belts.... | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2002 |
This all came from the dealers years ago to produce service income and perpetuate the myths that Ferrari's "HAD TO" be serviced using the "magic" that only Dealers possesed. Once the BS was so firmly entrenched it was useless/impossible to try and fight the "Urban Legend that Would Not Die" so to get along everyone serviceing Ferrari's were forced to go along with the Dealer Party Line. The reccomendation mileage has changed over the years, creeped higher. However it just goes to show that only about 1/10 of 1% of people ever read the owners hand book, opting to gather their knowledge on the wings of ravens instead. | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Junior Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 140 Registered: 11-2001 |
Greetings. Throughout my search for a Fcar I kept hearing about the 30000 mile service and the required cam belt change. Much to my surprise, the owner's manual of the 328 clearly states that the belts have to be changed at 52500 miles, and inspected at 30K So where did this 30K "You MUST change the belts" meme originate? The Ferrari service people, to make more money? I realize most are changed due to age (also something not mentioned in the manual), but as I plan on driving the car regularly I'll hit 30K long before 5 years. Any input is appreciated. Understand that I'm not concerned about the financial aspect of the belt changes, I just want to understand the discrepency. |