| Author |
Message |
Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 79
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 9:09 pm: | |
I agree with Billy Bob, great results if done right. Some "kits" have a separate line that feeds gas with the Nitrous. Either way, in my experience, if one remembers:
Don't go too crazy with the amount of NO.
Keep the gas supply CLEAN if it is squirted with the NO. A plugged fuel squirter is an instant lean burn, with pistons taking a beating. And you may wish to keep it above 3000RPM due to Cylender pressure. At Low RPM, the piston is moving too slowly to deal with the pressure spike caused by the "giggle gas" |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 11:15 pm: | |
For very usable power increases, call Bob Norwood in Texas, (972) 831-8111. He's turbo-ed and nitrous-ed with the best of them. How about 1200 HP in a Testarossa? That's nitrous to quickly spool the turbos, then off with the nitrous at low rpm (about 1.5 seconds) and on with the 1200 horsepower turbo show.
If you do your homework, turbo power on the street and track is no big deal, no dreaded lag. Lag on a properly designed system went out with beter fuel injection systems in the late eighties.
The Bosch Motronic in the 348 can be successfully modified for fuel enrichment, though for all out turbo you will gain drivability and tunability with a sophisticated aftermarket system like Motec.
If you want to go fast around a corner, email me directly with your cars info and what you want to accomplish. I raced the TR/308/348/355/360/F40 for a decade and have great race and street/race set-ups.
Charles, if you want to know what all those number mean, do some shopping at Motorbooks International this Christmas season. The Bosch Handbook and Bosch Fuel Injection and Engine Management come quickly to mind.
Knowledge is power. Without the data it's just an opinion. |
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
New member
Username: Airbarton
Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 7:54 am: | |
Thanks Billy, I'll drop you a line. Jim What are these numbers, what do they mean? |
Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
New member
Username: Lndshrk
Post Number: 33
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 2:23 am: | |
According to my references, the 348 uses the 731
injector. 249.12 cc/min of n-Heptane at 3.8bar
supplied by a 40.0 l/hr regulator at 3.8 bar.
To convert this to #'s/hr or any other value is
left at an exercise to the reader :P
Jim
|
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 73
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 11:17 pm: | |
Charles,
Too Bad I'm out west. But if you want me to talk you through it or want more info contact me off this list. [email protected] |
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
New member
Username: Airbarton
Post Number: 46
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 8:30 am: | |
Yea that does sound fun! I live in Atlanta Ga. The whole thing does sound a bit over my head though. I am really just a novice when it comes to all this technical stuff. I wonder how many other 348 ownners would be interested in something like that? |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 72
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 11:00 am: | |
Charles,
Where do you live? Many be we can get together and do this. Otherwise you would have to be creative. Read carefully my previous post as these issues are the most important. Since no one has done any research for the 348 you would have to find the info by seaking out experts in associated fields and do some experimentation. For example if you did the NO the cheap way previously described you may find it not viable if the plenum does not flow a wet mixture. Then we would need to talk to people like Rusty at RC engineering to help calculate/find the max the F injectors could handle in fuel flow at max dudty cycle to determine the limits of the F injector. That would be the limits of NO with a stock car. You will be fuel limited because you don't want a lean burn. Then you need to find a way to override the ECU for max dutycycle at wide open throttle. If you find you need more fuel (F injectors may already be at max for WOT) you then need to find out if you can increase injectorsize but IF the ECU's will compensate with lower dutycycle at the new injector for sub wide open throttle and have good drivibility. So the project could be easy or hard but fun. You clould also play with aftermarket ECU's and have an easy time with NO or future supercharging or turbos and get rid of most 348 electical problems that would leave you stranded. Then after you find the answer to all the problems and engineer the best system you can charge your fellow 348 owner small bucks for big HP and blow the doors off the 355's with your 348 at half the price. Sound fun?
|
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
New member
Username: Airbarton
Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 11:18 am: | |
Billy Bob, I am very interested in doing this. I had NO on a previous car which I installed myself, it worked great with no problems. The set up was a kit though so it was a no brainer to install. I have not been able to locate a kit for the 348. I realize it is possible to create a custom one, but I'm not sure I have the expertise to do it. I just thought there might be someone out there that has already developed one for the 348! |
Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Junior Member
Username: Tifosi12
Post Number: 87
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 9:41 am: | |
Billy Bob,
would you mind elaborate a bit on NO in a 308? I have a QV and was wondering what would be involved. A neighbour has a Honda Civic with NO and told me about some of the options (dry vs wet), but it sounds that the devil is in the details. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 69
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 9:01 am: | |
Getting 355 numbers is fairly easy. However, a cars driveablity is more than the numbers or we would all have corvettes. I have done huge quantities of NO and I am doing a guys 308 now. I have not run the 348 with but 308's and many other cars. You cannot hurt a car with NO if you know what you are doing. Those who claim engine damage have no real experiance or knowledge of NO systems or are juicing up cars beyond reasonable limits. The problem witht he 348 is theortical in that you must figure a way to trick the ECU to put out more pluse width to the injectors over what is seen during wide oopen throttle. Thre is no Ferrari spec for this so you have to find a way to figure this out and see if you can increase the duty cycle of flow. That is a complicated problem. Another solution is to direct port over the normal injectors. Another solution is to use an aftermarket ECU with correct injectors to alter th A/F mixture as required. The final way is to find out of the current 348 plenum design can flow a wet mixture evenly. If it can the you can inject fuel up stream like an old Bosch coldstart valve and dump fuel for the NO. You can slo then use cheap fogger nozzles and atomize fuel with NO upstream of the hotwire sensor. This is byfar the easy way to do it. What you need to do is read plugs with NO and look for the leanest plug and run fuel until the plugs are proper. This may cause other lungs to run rich but that is not too bad an issue the lean is waht you don't want. However if you make too fat a mixture it will not burn and you will loose power so the plenum with the cheap design will have to have some decent wet flow. If you want to do NO in your Ferrari ask me. I can tell you some realy inexpensive ways to do things that NO people will not know about since they want to sell you stuff. I have many NO miles and zero damage proved by engine teardown. |
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
New member
Username: Airbarton
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 8:29 am: | |
Man oh Man! see what happens when you ask a simple question about anything technical. Sounds like I have come to the right place when it comes to automotive expertise. I am still wondering though if you guys agree that the 348 would be much nicer if it was faster from 0-60. The 355 for example is only about 16 mph faster than the 348 @ the top end, but it is considerably quicker (0-60 in 4.7) out of the hole. I assume that is because it has 75 more HP. I am just looking for an easy way to gain a bit more so the car will perform like the 355! |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2940
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 7:11 pm: | |
Mark, If you have the spring numbers around I'm always game for info that might come in handy.
I think you hit the trans thing well, that's pretty much what I've been thinking along. I figure that enough rpm will start wearing out bearings more than anything else. With the stock tires I think one would have a difficult time grenading the trans, there's hardly any traction running 225s. When I swap rims later one and go to 285s (like you if I remember correctly) or 295s like the 550s run stock in back, then there might be more issues, but once again as long as you're not doing wild burnouts at every corner it should be alright. Theoretically you could make any trans work with any HP if you were careful enough with it. It's good to hear that you have yet to have any problems, it seems to be a pretty stout setup. They used the same transverse trans set up until the 355 so it had to work well. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 520
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 7:09 pm: | |
Transmissions used at high rpm OR high hp will get VERY hot. (New Z06 Corvettes have a temp sensor for the gearbox). You would probably be doing the car a big favor by installing a trans oil cooler w/pump. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 167
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 6:08 pm: | |
Bret, I forgot your trans question. No I'm not going to do any. I've been unable to substantiate any of the �the trans breaks at X HP�. I believe that it is no coincidence that the 400-450 number I�ve heard are exactly the number you can get out of a full race naturally aspirated engine. I�m sure that if you spin the engine to 9-10k, which I�ve also heard is the track number, you will break transmissions. I have some experience doing this on a Harley I used to road race. It�s more the time at high rpm than the HP. I�ll let you know if it turns out to be a bad idea. I have had absolutely no problems with the car over the last 2 summers, I must not be trying hard enough. |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 226
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 1:17 pm: | |
My post was intended to show that both engines are well tuned. GM did it with low RPM power, while Ferrari did it with high RPM power. The design points are vastly different, motivations are different, leading directly to different engine architectures. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 166
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 11:28 am: | |
Mitch, Most of what you said is basically true, but HP is HP. The displacement it takes to make the HP really only matters if the race class rules say it does. On the street, well drivability matters, both cars work great, Ferrari did it the high-tech cool way, chevy got it done for less money. They're both wonderful cars, it's a preference issue I guess. Personally I'll take the Ferrari because it's prettier. |
Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member
Username: Lawrence
Post Number: 401
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 10:54 am: | |
Oh, oh, the zealous Corvette people on this list aren't going to like that..... |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 10:39 am: | |
We are confusing about 4 things with respect to inlet air piping:
1) getting the throttle closer to the back side of the valve increase throttle response. Compare an F355 throttle to an LS1 corvette. In the F355 the throttle is less than 1 cylinder volume filling away from the vavle, this means that in less than 2 engin revs, the engin is operating on the new throttle settings. In a modern Corvette, the throttle is a long way away, after a closing of the throttle, the engine has to pump down the entire manifold before the engin begins to operate at the new throttle setting.
2) Getting the throttle closer to the valve means that the inlet track is operating at atmospheric pressure. This is more efficient (air pump wise)than operating the inlet track at manifold pressure.
3) Short straight wide round tracks have lower resistance to the velocity of air than a) long tracks, b) square tracks, c) bent tracks, and d) narrow tracks. Air in such tracks can accelerate faster, and support high RPM breathing. Long tracks can make use of the momentum of already accelerated air and, thereby, support higher torque in the lower RPM band. Bends not only cause resistance to airflow, but cause swirling in the airflow. The 95 F355 inlet tracks have 2 bends (low velocity), one as air passes through the air cleaner, and another as the air enters the velocity stack just above the throttle plate. A corvette has a long list of (high velocity) bends in its inlet tracks.
4) the resonance frequency of the F355 inlet track is carefully chosen to be a multiple of the resonance frequency of the outlet headers (about 7 to 9 times the header resonance). This arrangement helps the header to transfer wave energy from the exhaust into the inlet and begin moving air into the cyclinder even before it begins its downward stroke. It also gives it that awesome sound.
It is the short wide passages, throttle position, and straight tracks that allow the small 3.5 litre engine in the F355 to achieve more HP than the 5.7 litre engine in the LS1 corvette. The 5 valves only allow all of this air to enter the cylinder, get burned, and leave rapidly--in support of high RPM operation.
It is the long convoluted paths in the LS1 engine that allows the big torque peak low in the RPM band. It is also this long convoluted path that prevents the LS1 from breating well as you enter 7000+ RPM rev bands. Thereby, Chevy engineers can get away with push rods, since the rest of the air handling parts of the engine package don't supoport the RPM band that OHV and multivalves would allow.
A well tuned engine is a complete package. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 165
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 6:50 am: | |
It looks like Hans has more of the reasons right, but John your 100% right that smooth straight runners are good. The is an energy lose any time you put it a turn, which drecreases flow velocity and therefore cylinder fill. Hans has the length put roght though, it works like an instrument that needs to be tuned to a frequency or in this case rpm. But there are harmonics, so the length can get short if you tune to the 3rd harmonic instead of the 2nd, the 1st is rarely used because the manifold is just to long. Also the is another important player called the Hemloholtz(sp) principle. That has to do with volumes oscilating more than legnth and is super important in you are using an intake with a plenum, like a chevy. It lets you use shorter runners then use the plenum to get it back it tune.
Bret - I used a set of springs from crane cams that are a little stiffer and dropped right in, I can find you the part # if you want, but 8K is a good durable street engine and it doesn't help to spin post your peak HP rpm. A blower has zero lag and a positive displacement blower (roots or screw type) work though the entire rpm band, although they do work a lttle better on top. A turbo can only supply boost in about the top 50% of the engine rpm band and if you at low power (throttle off) it will spool down and need a little trime to back to operating speed when you get back on the throttle. So in a 5 mph punch the throttle, the blower car will walk away. A little because of the lag, but mostly because the blower is operating in the lower rpm and even though the cars have the same peak HP and torque, the blower car will have a much higher average HP and Torque over the full rpm range |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 340
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:47 am: | |
Hans,
I am pretty sure that I am right as well I think that maybe my explaination was to broad. With regards to the length of the intake runner from what I understand the longer and straighter the runner the more air you are effectively able to feed into the cylinder.
In the case of the Corvette I know you are talking about the 85-199x TPI models with the sweeping intake runners, yes these are long but they are also not straight in the least bit and were developed to create turbulence in the air as it entered the cumbustion chamber. Thus the reason it sucked at high RPMs because the amount of turbulance generated was detrimental to getting air into the cylinder. I know this because I have an 87 Tran Am with that originally had the TPI system on it, when flow testing the manifold the velocity of air coming out of the TPI system was less than half of that of the Accel system my car has on it now. The Accel system has eight direct ports into the cylinder heads, from the outside they look very short but if you disassemble the unit you can see they are actual a good 6 inches long.
Also if you look at the Trick Flow or Edelbrock high RPM carb manifolds they also have very long and straight intake runners, allowing the air fuel mixture to gain maximum velocity before entering the cylinder. I have built a few of these small chevys for stock cars and have dynoed them with different manifolds and can tell you that looking at the sheets here now the higher rise manifolds make more high RPM power on the same engine.
I have never looked at a 308 carbed setup up close so I cannot tell you how long the intake runners are on it, but on my 348 they are at least 8 inches long if not longer (from the bottom of the plenium to the actual cylinder intake port, and if I remember correctly on the QV 308/328 are also about 6-8" above the actual cylinder ports. Check out www.ferrarina.com and look at the length of the runners on the F50 engine, as well as the other late fuel injected cars. They all have very long, straight intake runners to provide maximum cylinder intake chamber air velocity. Thus packing the cylinders full of as much air and fuel as possible.
Now I maybe completely wrong here but I am just going off of what I have leared building engines and the dyno charts I have gotten from them. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 516
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:27 pm: | |
Also, musical instruments use shorter tubes/smaller size for higher pitch. Higher pitch corresponds to the resonances within the intake system - i.e. intake tuning. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 514
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:22 pm: | |
Uh, John, you might have this backward.
My carb Ferrari has VERY short runners. The carbs are damn near on the heads.
85 to 89 Corvettes had long intake runners. LOTS of low end torque, was gasping for breath at about 4500rpm. Starting with 90, the plenum dumped directly into very short runners, feeding directly into the head. Lost a whole bunch of low end torque, but added 1500rpm to the top.
Many modern cars are running a complex manifold setup that will open a valve at mid-rpm to shorten the air path.
F1 cars often have sliding velocity stacks. They shorten them with rpm.
Lastly, a very good friend of mine was an extremely clever race car mechanic. He was experimenting with a 4 cyl racing engine. Had an IR manifold that he put on some hose contraption connecting the manifold to each port on the head. Engine was on a dyno, and he slid the manifold back and forth, lengthening and shortening the runners. He carefully measured hp and rpm of hp peak with numerous runner lengths. Shorter runners, higher rpm where hp would peak. He had to compromise with a setting that peaked at an rpm that would provide a reasonable level of durability. |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2932
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:10 pm: | |
I have to admit that reading all this engine stuff makes me want to be an engineer (I'm in the school of business now). I never thought I'd have a use for two years of highschool physics and another year at college. I love these engine discussions. The 308 should be interesting this time. Valve springs will be the limiting factor, even with a new set of stock ones I wont run it much over 8k. Down the road though a nice 9k+ screamer will be in order. When I get this thing done it's gonna be like getting a new car, I haven't driven it in literally a year. It reminds me of the movie "better off dead" where the kids camaro lays in the front yard under a tarp until the hot girl across the street helps him get it running. Maybe I should take note of this, I wonder if there's a hot girl out there that likes working on Ferraris... Mark, I was under the impression that a blower significantly decreased lag as compared to a turbo and would be much better off the line? I was thinking more along the lines of a 5-60 acceleration (moving) when comparing off the line between a screamer and a blown engine, as opposed to a 0-60 where you could tack it up before taking off. I should have clarified that as reading it over again I say from a stand still. Mark, are you gonna do any trans work when you swap blowers? How's the stock system holding up with the power you're making now? |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 164
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:07 pm: | |
Oh the gates of hell comment made me remember this. I has in a hurry to get home and meet someone, so I was getting on the car more than just a little. When I got back to work, one of my coworkers told me his wife call to ask if my car was blue. Apparently she has stopped buying gas and when I came around the corner and got back on the throttle, (I'd been going down hill), the shriek made her jump out of her skin and the car was gone. So it literally scare women and children. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 163
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 10:42 pm: | |
Hey Bret, your car should get off the line just as fast as a blown car of equal HP. Turbos are slow off the line unless you can load the engine enough against the brakes to get the turbo spooled. But high rpm screamer or lower rpm blower doesn't much matter. The key is to keep the torque curve as flat as possible, it's torque that turns the wheels. HP tells you how much work can be done with the torque. If you can hit your HP peak, shift and be at your torque peak, that's the best you can do. I launch my car at about 4500 rpm, higher it spins, lower it bogs. You may need to leave the line at a little higher RPM, but as long as you have more power than traction, you'll leave the line just fine. A blower is not as efficient as naturally aspirate or turbo because the compression ratio(blower plus engine) is higher than the expansion ratio, so at the track a supercharged car needs to carry more fuel. If it's just a couple laps you'll never know the difference, but if you're trying to run a race, well lighter is better. A lower rpm supercharged or turbo engine will live longer than an equal HP screamer because E=1/2mv^2. Increasing HP loads increases the engine loads proportional to the HP change, increasing rpm increases the loads to the square of the rpm change, so going from 7000 to 9000 is a 65% load increase plus the extra HP load. There is no right answer really, it�s just what comprises fit your goals. You�ve got to love the sound of a Ferrari at 9K. |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 339
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 8:30 pm: | |
Tim,
In racing the ideal power curve is a flat one for both torque as well as horse power, thus no matter what RPM you are turning you are getting the most out of your engine. This is almost impossible to acheive in an internal combustion engine because differing amounts of air and fuel lead to more power, thus some engines work great at lower RPMs because their intakes supply them with the perfect amount of air to make combusion most effective. Other cars (ferraris) have very long intake runners thus giving the combustion chamber fits at low RPM's because the lack of air flow but in turn making a lot of power at high RPMs because of the longer intake runner actually providing more cfms into the engine.
There are billions of books and ideas out there about how to make the most power from and engine. But from what I understand short, stubby intake runners produce more tubulance in the incoming air at mid range RPMs making the air and fuel mix better, at high RPMs these runners do not provide enough air flow to the engine thus making the car run rich (to the computer) and reducing power. Tall intake runner and small cc heads produce a lot of high RPM power because they allow the car to pack the chamber full of air each time the valve opens (133 times per second at 8000RPM).
Since I am confusing the hell out of people probably and myself (I really cant explain it with out having the engines in front of me), I will close by saying it doesnt matter where in the RPM band you make your power as long as at each shift your RPMs only drop you down to a RPM that corresponds to no less than 80% of your peak RPM power. At least that is what I was taught anyway :P |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2931
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 3:49 pm: | |
I was just reading about superchargers a lot cause everybody seems to be using them now, or at least everybody as in the Germans. They have 300hp Audi A4s from bolt on eaton superchargers with a chip and different injectors, 10 hours work, nothing permanently changed on the car, and like hundred more hp.
The big benefit from going higher rpm is no added weight, actually there will be a lot less weight than stock when it all goes back together. For a track car I think high rpm works better than a supercharger, all things being equal. No matter what I do I'll always make sure to be adding power across the board, not hard to do considering that low down the 308 doesn't have much to start with, but nevertheless. The other big thing to me is less clutter, Mark's setup is done really nice, leaving the engine compartment with good room for working, some of those TT setups though would make working on the car more of a pain in the ass, and that I'm not interested in. |
Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 12:55 pm: | |
Its better to make more power down low. Bret, with your high rpm powrband approach you'll have to wind the thing all the way out to get to where the power is. I firmly belive tha its better to make alot of midrange power than power way up in th 7k rpm range. Not only wil the car be faster due to the torque to acelerate out of corners, but the engine will also last longer. It will also be easier to drive on the street becasue you wont have to downshift to pass or go up a hill. With your 308 im sure the new cams are helping out alot with mid range top end power though. Your 308 isnt what you are describing is it? |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2926
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 12:21 pm: | |
The 5spds have a great shift pattern for a race track (how often do you drop down into 1st?), but obviously the strip is different.
I've been reading about superchargers a lot lately, they are awesome. They have these aftermarket bolt on kits for a lot of those German and Jap cars that people "tune". I would have gotten more hp cheaper had I gone the route that Mark chosen, plus his car sounds like it came from the gates of hell (a compliment, very nasty little car with that blower whistling). Most of Ferrari's first cars were blown 1.5-2.0L V12s too so it's not like it isn't a part of the company's history. That said, I still like my high rpm and high comp approach, but realistically I wont be able to get off the line acceleration that a blown car will get. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 499
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 11:53 pm: | |
Does a 348 have a 5 speed with the dog-leg 1-2 shift? I thought that was just the earlier cars.
I've had ricers ask what the 'ole GT4 will do in the 1/4. I tell them I haven't a clue, as you measure the 1-2 shift on the calender, not the clock. They don't seem to get that a SPORTS car doesn't depend upon ultra quick shifts for its speed.
I doubt LeMans has ever been won by someone worried if they could bark the tires on shifts. |
Noelrp (Noelrp)
Junior Member
Username: Noelrp
Post Number: 115
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 8:31 pm: | |
The shift pattern should tell you a lot. It is not made for sprinting due to the postition of the 1st & 2nd gear.
|
Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member
Username: Tork1966
Post Number: 302
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 8:00 pm: | |
Then why TRY to make a Ferrari something that it is not? |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 337
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 3:26 pm: | |
And you know what no matter how fast I make my 348, I cant even get close to my 1987 Pontiac TA that lays down 12.3 1/4 and cost me what my 30k did on the Ferrari. If you want a drag car nothing beats a cheap American muscle car. |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 336
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 3:24 pm: | |
Rob you are correct any engine can take 1000bhp but the question is how long will it take that for without a major rebuild. My guess is that a Ferrari engine like the 348s would last about 3000-6000 miles running that kind of power on a daily basis assuming you dont beat it to hard.
If we are talking about engines yes I have to concur about them being able to handle 1000bhp, but looking at the Ferrari transmission I dont really think that a stock 348/355 tranny will hold much more than 500hp, if that, without some serious work. I talked with Walter Koenig and he told me that on all of his Twin Turbo 348s the tranny has to be upgrade if the user wants to drive the car more than 3000 miles without a rebuild.
Charles if you are looking for 5.0 flat 0-60 times do what I did with my car. Remove weight first and foremost, I took out my seats and replaced them with OMPs (more comfortable to), the tubi and cat removal dropped some more weight, and then just things like getting rid of CD-changers, etc. After that with the hps that the Tubi, no cats, and K&N feed you, you should be in the low 5's. Like I said before I am getting a set of SuperChips so I hope to push her to 5 flat then I will be happy because I havent ruined the spirit of Ferrari in the car by leaving it NA, and have a car that is competitive on the track with any mid to late 90's cars.
Dont forget you are also talking about a car from the early 90's competing with cars nowdays that have a much higher level of technology and squeeze every ounce of power from their engines with new and smarter EMS's.
P.S. You could always go with a motec injection system for some more power as well as better throttle responce. |
neal (95spiderneal)
New member
Username: 95spiderneal
Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 3:11 pm: | |
i met a guy with a red 348 spider on long island who used nitrous and he was enthusiastic about it too. i personally think its a bad idea as ive seen the internals of a blown 348 motor (mine) and i would not place any further stresses on it. de cating, k&n, chip, etc might get another 10% on dyno but wont be a drag champ then either. get a ricer or a muscle car with nitrous and have peace of mind
good luck |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2768
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 10:18 am: | |
Ferrari engines can take 1,000 HP if done right. Do your NO right and you won't have any problems. It's cheap and easy, so that's a good reason to do it. Although when getting into expensive mods for the track, suspension improvments will equal faster lap times than engine mods. |
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
New member
Username: Airbarton
Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 10:09 am: | |
Wow! it looks like I really stired things up with this idea. I'm glad to see the interest in it. I guess what I am looking for is a way to get the 348's 0-60 to be like some of Ferrari's other cars. You all must surely agree the car would be a lot better if the 0-60 was in the 4's instead of the 5's. If it ran lets say even 5 flat there wouldn't be much out there that could touch it from the stop light. As it is now there are quite a few cars that will. |
Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 1627
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 3:31 pm: | |
This kits will sell like hot cakes.
John, i never siad it was a good idea, jsut that you could do it. If i had a 348 you would never find nitrous on it.
|
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 162
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 1:55 pm: | |
Ernie,
I have no doubt it can be done. A SC is usually a little harder to figure out than a turbo, because you need to get the belt on. I'm actually seriously considering making kits for the 308QV/328 cars right now. If you want to email me some pics of your engine bay that show the front of the crank, sides and top, I could probably figure out a way to do it. |
Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member
Username: Ernie
Post Number: 422
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 10:06 am: | |
Hey Mark
You super charged your motor right. How difficult do you think it would be to do the same to a 348 motor? I know that there are plenty of turbo applications out there. I just don't like the heat that they generate. That and the blower doesn't have any lag, it's right there. Anyway seeing that you have already done it to your car what do you think on a 348? |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 335
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 1:42 am: | |
Charles - I know exactly what you are talking about in wanting the 348 to have a little more umph! But I didnt want it so much in straight line performance as I did in accellerating out of turns and staying balanced under throttle in the turns. Thus I freed her up to breath better and lightened her up to make her more nimble. It was amazing dropping all the weight I did from the car actually cause the car to sit 3/4" higher than it did before hand so I had to adjust the shocks to get my ride hight correct again! The only other plans I have for the 348 are to get some SuperChips for her and then get some offical dyno charts for my wall to hang next to my other cars dnyo charts....then it is off to starting my ERA GT-40 kit!! fun fun! :o)
The G-tech is a product that measures 0-60 and 1/4 mile as well as other interesting performance metrics. Most of the top magazines have tested with it and agree it is VERY damn accurate. I took mine on the strip in my 383 Trans Am and sure as hell it was dead on with the timing slips. |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 334
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 1:36 am: | |
Hey guys I'm not saying that you cant do NO2 on a Ferrari, its just that I really dont see the point. To me in ever engine I have ran NO2 on eventually I have had to rebuild the engine, and as Mark stated it is great at the drag strip but serves no purpose in any other motoring. With the tolerances the Ferrari engine are built at I really think you are taking your financial future in your hands by adding NO2. The increased temperature in the cylinders over a period of time is going to get to the piston rings, and eventually you are going to start seeing blow by and loss of compression (or so this is what happened to my 383 Chevy motor). Secondly the harsh world of drag racing doesnt play well into Ferrari transmissions and clutches. If you have the money to play with your engine and possible have to do a whole rebuild then by all means hook it up and let us know. But for those that dont have the money I think the best performance upgrade you can do for your ferrari is a K&N, Tubi (or other suitable exhaust), and lighten her up by getting rid of what you dont need. Its amazing the difference dropping 100lbs of weight off the car will do for you.
|
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 161
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 8:07 pm: | |
Tim, boost is very addictive - hp is your friend.
I'm sure the nitrous won't break it. 50-100 hp should be fine, watch the mixture |
Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 1619
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 7:17 pm: | |
Boost is addictive, eh mark?
The engine has to be able to take a 50 or 75 shot. If it didnt, then ferrari built a real crappy engine. Nirous wont break anything more than turbos or any other way of getting power would, excpt if you didnt have enough fuel press and went lean. Most likely if you have any common sense you wouldnt spray out of the hole, which is what will really break trannys and axles. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 159
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 6:59 pm: | |
I ran into a guy a couple years ago , he had the same year 308 as me, he said his that his son had a 348 with nitrous. I have never really understood it personally. I mean it makes perfect sence at the drag strip, about 1/4 mile is about all you can run it, you have to know when you're going to want it so you can open the valve. I know it's cheap HP, but for me the track calls for a turbo, the street or strip wants a blower - The power is always on. My only regret about putting a blower on my 308 is that I was too conservative only looking for a 55% increase. The new system will be more like 100%. You've got to love boost. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 494
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 6:44 pm: | |
I know a guy that has experimented extensively with NO on a 308. *IF* done properly, no problems whatsoever. The block will handle seemingly infinite HP. The real trick is to make sure you get proper fuel mixture. Too lean (i.e. - stock amount of fuel) and "Holy piston, Batman!" |
allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Junior Member
Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 94
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 4:16 pm: | |
Nitrous if done properly is a very cheap and safe power adder. I use it on my Diablo to the tune of an extra 150hp at the touch of a button. Ive used it for years with no problems whatsoever. There is also a guy i know who run a 70 shot on his 360 modena. |
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
New member
Username: Airbarton
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 3:41 pm: | |
Well I was just curious. I suppose it is a bad idea. I guess I am just looking for ways to improve the cars 0-60 performance. John it sounds like you have done that, what is a G-tech pro? Don't you all think this car would be really awsome if it had 1/4 mile times in the low 13's as well as it's great top end performance! It's not that it isn't great already believe me I love it, but it would sure be better if it was as untouchable! from the stop light as it is on the highway. Sounds like John knows what I mean! |
Noelrp (Noelrp)
Junior Member
Username: Noelrp
Post Number: 113
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 1:52 pm: | |
That's one fast 348. Nice! |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 332
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:40 pm: | |
PS This is the one and only time I have done drag racing starts with this car because damn clutches are to fricking expensive to keep replacing on a whim. |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 331
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:39 pm: | |
I dont know why you would want to ruin the 348 with nitrous. A Ferrari is about handling, high RPM engine music, and the ablity to pull from 60-120 effortlessly. They are not drag cars at all!! I just finished building a Porsche 914 AutoX car that I had considered putting NO2 in until I saw a friend gernade his 914-6 engine with it.
If you do car about drag number in the 348, this is what I accomplished with mine measured over two runs with a G-tech Pro.
0-60 = 5.1/5.2 seconds
1/4 mile = 13.5@107/[email protected]
Of course my car is about 300lbs ligther than stock from some weight removal I have done to make her handle better. It has a Tubi, no cats, K&N. She weighed in at 2958 lbs with a little fuel in the tank and no driver on a local truck scale up here.
Overall I love this car if you cant tell and just dont want you to do anything you would regret with it...or regret with 28K for a new engine :P |
Noelrp (Noelrp)
Junior Member
Username: Noelrp
Post Number: 112
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 10:45 am: | |
Why would you want to do that? The 348 is pretty fast as it is. It can do 1/4 mile in the low 14's and has a top speed of 170mph. Fast enough to go side by side with a modern Porsche.
I'd get a disposable car (like a beatup mustang) for a cheap thrill. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1521
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 9:46 am: | |
Its possible if you want a grenade instead of an engine in your car ! |
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
New member
Username: Airbarton
Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 9:22 am: | |
Just out of curiosity I was wondering if it was even possible. An improvement in 1/4 mile performance would be a nice upgrade on this car. I put nitrous on a 70 Trans Am once a few years ago and it made a big difference. Just thought it might be an interesting possibility for the 348! |