| Author | Message | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2258 Registered: 12-2000 |
Thanks Gerrit. | ||
| Gerrit Visser (Gerritv)
Junior Member Username: Gerritv Post Number: 117 Registered: 6-2001 |
Peter Engine start relay was there to bypass the ballast resistors on start. More juice, more spark. There is no relay in my car although the wiring is still in place. It is not actually connected at the coil end. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 673 Registered: 4-2002 |
Peter: <grin> I don't know how to look at the bottom of the 'Bosch' relay, as I'm supposed to have the Stribel!! I've got to get off my lazy ass and 1) check this crazy relay thing (geez, I've got to pull carpet, and some screws and stuff) 2) unscrew all of that large quantity of stuff on top of the engine to set the idle (different thread). My GEO Metro never had these issues. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2252 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hans, I don't know if the Bosch 006 is the same as the Stribel SR9833. If you look at the bottom of the Bosch relay and the centre pin is marked: "87b", then its the same. If it is, go down to NAPA and pick up an Echlin AR289 relay. Steve S. Don't worry about missing relays. I'm missing one too (engine starting relay). Don't know why its gone, but the car starts so I'm not worried. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1218 Registered: 1-2001 |
Steve S. -- If you can feel the ...113 relay for the window motors close when you plug it in (with the key off) then your new task is to figure out why there is +12V present on the 86 terminal with the key off. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 662 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'd take the car back (to Italy) and get a refund. | ||
| Steve Smith (Steve308)
Junior Member Username: Steve308 Post Number: 51 Registered: 2-2002 |
Steve M Looks like I spoke to soon about the window lift relay... Last time I posted I hadn't had time to do more than remove the relay to see if it disabled the windows. When I actually swopped it out with another of the ...113's (from the horns) to check fully, the "new" relay also lets the windows work with the ignition off, and the relay that was on the window lift seems to work fine on the horns. Soooo - back to square one on that. One other thing I hadn't really noticed before because of the fact that everything's in different positions... but the manual AND the diagram on the back of the trim panel over the relays both show TWELVE relays... but only ELEVEN are installed on the car: and I don't mean there's just a relay unit missing: There's only WIRING for eleven. Now I just got to figure what's not there! Actually I think it's probably the headlight flasher, because they don't... | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 657 Registered: 4-2002 |
Peter: Are you saying that the Stribel relay *is* or *isn't* the same as the Bosch 006? Is it an animal all to itself? (Geez, maybe I should start looking for a spare.) | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2247 Registered: 12-2000 |
Sorry Hans, I looked at my diagram too quickly. The "88" relay is a four-pin. Oddly, all relays on my car are five-pins. I guess for that one, they simply do not run a wire to one of the 87 pins. Oh yes they can be identified by pin number. And it is a very rare application, because I had an incredibly difficult time trying to track down that Stribel replacement. I did, finally getting one at NAPA... Maybe Steve M. can shed some light on this, but it should be a DIN standard. The + imput is always the 30 pin, the coil terminals are always 85 & 86 and the outputs are one 87 AND (another)87, 87a, or 87b. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1216 Registered: 1-2001 |
Steve S. -- Does that mean if you use a different ...113 relay in that position things are working correctly (i.e., windows run only with key on)? | ||
| Steve Smith (Steve308)
New member Username: Steve308 Post Number: 50 Registered: 2-2002 |
Steve M - Good call on the window lifter relay being stuck - I think that's it. Once again it's in a different place to that shown in the manual (it's where the manual places the day/night flasher) but once I tracked it down, removing it does indeed disable the windows. Big thanks for suggesting that - it just wouldn't have occured to me that it was a relay problem... and my copy of the wiring schematic is too poor to have traced it anyhow (well that's my excuse!) | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1215 Registered: 1-2001 |
Steve S. -- It's not a serious problem that your windows operate with the key "off", but I'd be very surprised if there shouldn't be a ...113 relay somewhere that gets energized when the key is turned "on" (which would connect the 30 terminal to the 87 terminal) and supply +12V power to the window circuits (both my ex-308 and TR are that way as is the '76 Euro GT4 schematic). One negative on a B or S for that arrangement would be that you couldn't leave the windows cracked open when the doors are locked since the window switches would be easily accessible from the outside (not sure where a GT4's window switches are). Either someone did rewire it so the +12V is always available to the window circuits or the 30-to-87 contacts inside the...113 relay are mechanically stuck "closed". If you can identify the "relay for windows motor" you might try unplugging it to see if that disables the windows or not. (Based on the '78 US 308GTB/S and '76 Euro 308GT4 schematics,) the "relay for windows motor" socket should have: 1. a large white (B) wire on terminal 30 which is always +12V, 2. a large white (B) wire on terminal 87 (which supplies the +12V to the window motors when the relay is closed -- this wire should run over to the top of the two fuses for the window motors), 3. a small black (N) wire on the 85 terminal (ground for the relay coil), and 4. two small yellow (G) wires on the 86 terminal (which supply the +12V to energize the relay coil when the key is turned "on") With regard to the radio -- all is virtually non-standard IMO so there's a lot of variation between Fs in that area. My preference is to run the audio equipment independent of the ignition for engine-off radio operation (since there isn't a true "accessories only key on position"). | ||
| Steve Smith (Steve308)
New member Username: Steve308 Post Number: 49 Registered: 2-2002 |
Peter / Steve M... Hmmm... my windows definitely operate WITHOUT the key... (and no worse than with it!) Do you think this is something that potentially cause a problem? I've always thought it a bit weird: I guess it's more evidence that my car has had the wiring loom / relay board modified at some time. The stereo in the car is also independent of the ignition. Is this also non-standard? Hans - When I said Streibel was the same as "006" I meant it appeared that the Streibel on your diagram had been replaced by the 006 on mine. if Peter says the one isn't a direct replacement for the other - I'd trust him! I guess the bottom line is that are significant differences between cars of different ages... and all documentation should be treated with caution! | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 640 Registered: 4-2002 |
Peter: Confused by the relay designation. I'm not sure if relay identification can be done just by pin #s. This is the first automotive application that I've seen for DPST relays. I guess that they didn't want two different circuits connected until the power was applied. Oh, BTW, the wiring diagram is NOT the same as my owner's manual. Peter: Are you sure that there are 5 wires coming out of relay 88? Mine only shows 4. Yours could have a Euro diagram, or some such. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2244 Registered: 12-2000 |
Yes Steve, windows can (barely) go up with the ignition on ONLY. As for the wiring diagram, its the same as my '75. In the past, I've gone past the use of Bosch numbers to identify relays, instead to use the centre pin numbers: 87, 87a, 87b. The numbers are universal. Hans, the Stribel unit is an 87b type. If you use either of the other two to replace it (especially an 87a) the external lights will remain on ALL THE TIME. I didn't follow through on the diagram, but there's obviously an energization of the circuit (which is normally not connected with an 87b type relay) when using an 87a type to allow the lights to remain on. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 622 Registered: 4-2002 |
Steve(s): On the '75 documentation the "87" relay is the STRIBEL unit. I'd be curious if it is plug compatible with the Bosch 006 (I hope). ** The "88" relay is a SPST type (113), not a DPST. ** Weird, huh? Windows? Use Linux. Key on or off. Seriously folks, I need key on for windows. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1213 Registered: 1-2001 |
Hans -- What type of relay is shown in the "87" position on your schematic? Here's the corresponding area of the '76 Euro 308GT4 schematic ("105" is a ...101 relay, "87" and "88" [ext. lights] are ...006 relays, and "97" [windows] is a ...113 relay):  Steve S. -- Seems a little odd to me that your windows work with the key either on or off. Can other 308GT4 owners comment if their's is similar or different? | ||
| Steve Smith (Steve308)
New member Username: Steve308 Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hans - I think the "Stribel" relay definitely is the same thing as the "006" . I guess it's just another indication that the manuals are a guide rather than the definitive answer for all cars Typically enough, when I went to put the cover back over the relays, I'd forgotten that on the back of it was another diagram. This does correctly identify the position of the lighting relays! However, it still doesn't exactly tie in with what's on the board, so I guess my car's had some mods done at some point, even though it doesn't look that way. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 605 Registered: 4-2002 |
In my '75 documentation, there is no 006 relay, but plenty of 101 and 113s. I'm wondering if the "STRIBEL" part listed is the same. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1207 Registered: 1-2001 |
Steve S. -- Glad you found the gremlin. My fault for not being clearer about the meaning of using just "...006" to identify the relay(s). I had assumed all F owners would know that there are (usually) 3 types of (10 digit) Bosch relays used in the panel which end in: ...113, ...101, or ...006 So yes 0 332 015 006 would be the whole 10 digit Bosch number. Any Autoparts store with Bosch connections should be able to (eventually) get the relay for you, but I'd guess it's 20-to-1 that they'd have one on the shelf (the ...113 and ...101 are much more commonly available types). Lately I've taken to just ordering the Bosch stuff I need from: http://www.importeccatalog.com if I know the 10 digit Bosch PN -- just type in 0332015006 in the search box. PS the metal-cased ...113 and the metal-cased ...101 relays have been "replaced" by newer Bosch plastic-cased designs -- http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/169347.html. There may be a newer plastic-cased equivalent for the metal-cased ...006, but I've not actually come across any info. PPS It's a shame if the documentation is a bit wrong -- I can confirm that both of the ...006 relays shown on the '76 Euro GT4 schematic are directly associated with the external lights only. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 604 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yes, and no. I've heard that the EXACT relay is to be had at Ferrari dealerships, but that identical generic Bosch relays are a dime a dozen. A good parts store will cross reference and fix you up, no problem. | ||
| Steve Smith (Steve308)
New member Username: Steve308 Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2002 |
RESULT!!! Big thanks to all - we have lights again! Steve M - Started checking as you suggested - windows worked with key on... but then, windows work WITHOUT key on too, so wasn't sure if that was significant. Like Hans I was unsure about your 006 ref til I noticed the serial numbers on two of the relays - 0332 015 006 - right? Only problem was according to my schematic of the relays those two should be ignition and horn relays! (I think it's the same diagram as yours in the OM Hans - relays G and H) 'cept of course in the schematic the second of those relays should have been a different type... ending in 113. THEN I looked at the WORKSHOP manual and the second one is described as the horn relay. The wiring diagram meanwhile bears no resemblance to anything in the car or what you described from your schematics... Confused? Me too. Anyway I thought what the hell, swapped the two 006 relays over... and all the lights popped back on. Short term problem solved, but Hans, I DID notice a very small amount of melting damage round the socket of the relay that failed - so I'm going to take your advice and give the whole fuse / relay area a thorough overhaul. Once that was sorted, I noticed several other discrepancies between the OM description of the relays and what's actually present. Don't know if this is because it a late ('79) car or whether it's had some specific rewiring done. Either way I guess I need to work through systematically to find out just what really is where. Anyway - big, big thanks to everyone. Another victory for Ferrarichat! One final question: Is the 006 relay specific to Ferrari or a generic item I can get from an auto supply shop? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 603 Registered: 4-2002 |
Steve S.: It's a little off-topic, but I brought it up and didn't mean to scare you to death. Probably has nothing to do with your current problem, I just wanted to finish what I started. So..... You can do a pre-emptive strike on the fuse box and solder it up. On a GT4, it's a bit of a PITA because getting at the bottom connectors on the fusebox to remove it is difficult. Best to disassemble the glove box. Do a search, or contact me for more info. Hans. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 598 Registered: 4-2002 |
Geez, Steve M. - you're making me work. I have one hell of a time tracing the wires on these diagrams - I do it 3 or 4 times and get a different result each time. But, yes, your diagram must be the same as/resemble my '75. #87 on the diagram. The legend for the diagram describes it as "Relay for headlamps (12V-20A)" From Steve's s/n, his must be a later car, so your '76 diagram may be more accurate, if there are any differences. The problem is that the descriptions on the wiring diagram legend aren't the same as those on the illustration of the relay board, so it's a little tough to figure out what's what. However, I *think* it's the one I mentioned below, based on process of elimination (or should that be 'illumination'?) Is the entire headlight/motor circuit a little weird, or is it just me? | ||
| Steve Smith (Steve308)
New member Username: Steve308 Post Number: 43 Registered: 2-2002 |
Many thanks for those suggestions... I'll work them through and let you know what happens. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3604 Registered: 2-2001 |
Another thing I found on my GTS, that set for 18 yrs, was corrosion inside the wire harness plugs where they come off the steering column. Not really bad corrosion just looked like a discoloration of the metal connectors. Cleaned them with contact cleaner put them together and my electrical problem was solved. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1206 Registered: 1-2001 |
Correction -- I remembered I have a 1976 Euro 308GT4 schematic and it shows two of the (30, 85, 86, 87, 87b) type relays (what I called the ...006 type -- when energized the 30 terminal is connected to both the 87 and 87b terminals simultaneously) and one of them is used in the same fashion as on my ex-GTS to run the external lights. Hans -- can you check your schematic -- the relay in question should have a wire running from the center-pole of the 3-position headlight switch (2.5N I think) to the 87 or 87b terminal of the relay. On the '76 Euro GT4 schematic the relay is numbered as "87" (not to be confused with the 87 used for the terminals). | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 595 Registered: 4-2002 |
Steve: If you have a fusebox problem, a good visual inspection should tell. The rivets holding the contacts together corrode, causing a high resistance, hence heat. You'll see something melted or burnt and a fuse will probably be loose or fallen out. However....... It's probably not your problem. On page 114 of my '75 owners manual, the purposes of the fuses and relays are shown. If it were a fuse, it would have to be several of them, too big of a coincidence. Steve M's suggestions are excellent, but I'm confused by the 006 nomenclature for the relay. I don't see that referenced anywhere in the 'GT4 manual or wiring diagram. Are you meaning the "Relay for External Lights (STRIBEL SR 9833)"? If so, it's on the top row, 4th from the left. It's the only unique relay, as there are multiples of the others. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1204 Registered: 1-2001 |
Steve S. -- Do you have the schematic in the OM? I'm guessing my ex-GTS is very similar to your GT4 so I'll make some guesses/comments. Are your window motors working (key on)? The light power and the window power comes off the same terminal on the main power distribution block. Several things to verify: 1. Unplug the ...006 relay (there's only one). On the relay note which tab is #30 (it will have 5 tabs -- #30, #85, #86, #87, and #87b). Measure the voltage on the corresponding ...006 relay socket for the #30 tab -- it should always be +12V (even with the key off). 2. If #1 checks OK (and if it does your windows should be working too -- key "on" of course) put the ...006 relay back in. In the fuse block you should have two fuses for the dipped (low) beam lights and two fuses for the main (high) beam lights. Coming into the top of one of the main beam fuses should be a large diameter (red?) wire -- when you turn the main (high) beams on this line (and the other upper fuse terminal without a wire) should go +12V (if there's power on the #30 tab of the ...006 relay and if the ...006 relay is working correctly). 3. Correspondingly, the upper terminals on both the dipped beam fuses should go +12V when the low beams are turned on. Check these items and we'll go from there... | ||
| Steve Smith (Steve308)
New member Username: Steve308 Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ok... I've spent an hour prodding round the column switch and fuse box and still nothing. Hans - if there's a melted fusebox problem as you suggest, would it be really obvious, or more subtle? Is it the fuse mountings that go, or the wiring? There's just no obvious sign of damage at all. The fact that side lights, headlights and panel lights have ALL gone still makes me suspicious of the switch most of all. I double checked all the earths as Tom suggests but all look OK - and the headlamp lift relay is still clicking each time the switch is twisted so there must be power getting through. Any other suggestions gratefully received... | ||
| Steve Smith (Steve308)
New member Username: Steve308 Post Number: 41 Registered: 2-2002 |
Thanks guys... I'll check and report back... | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 592 Registered: 4-2002 |
Not so sure about the column switch giving a total blackout. I'm totally guessing here, but recheck the fuses and, in particular the fusebox itself. At some point in a 'GT4's life, I virtually guarantee that the fusebox will have a meltdown. If yours hasn't been properly repaired, that could be the problem. That's what put out the heater blower and A/C on my car. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Junior Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 57 Registered: 9-2002 |
I would check the ground connections for the cloume switch. Maybe if you hit a hard bump on the way home it triggered a bad connection.tb | ||
| Steve Smith (Steve308)
New member Username: Steve308 Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2002 |
So there I was, just getting home, feeling pretty rugged cos I'm still using the car on a dark wet winter night... when all the lights go out. Headlights, sidelights, dash, the lot. Twist the stalk and all that happens is a click from a relay. I guess this is probably the headlight lifting relay - though of course the lights don't rise. Anyone suggest causes? All the fuses and relays seem OK - and surely there's no one single fuse or relay that would knock everything off. Am I right in suspecting the main switch? And if it IS the switch - would it still be triggering the relay? Can anyone help? BTW - it's s/n 14774... I know there are people who like to know....! |