| Author |
Message |
John A (Jarends)
Junior Member
Username: Jarends
Post Number: 184
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 8:02 am: | |
Installed a K&N on my son's 1999 Pontiac Grand Am (with ram air). I couldn't believe the difference. I had to tell him to mind his driving, had no idea it would produce like that.
When I read the paperwork, it made sense that the difference isn't only the amount of air, but the turbulance created by the old style filters.
I don't know, it made a difference in this car. I have one on my 1978 T/A and may try it on the 2002 t/a. |
Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Member
Username: 350hpmondial
Post Number: 362
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 8:01 pm: | |
When you spray a clear coat. .. .. . You spray it thin -N- clear.
Filtration, ,, ,, as in my sprey rig. is pure. ... ..
Keep your intake air as. . please... .
pure.
Your Engine would agree. .. . ..
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magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3840
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 8:47 am: | |
I agree Marq, I think we are both on the same page here. |
Marq J Ruben (Qferrari)
Junior Member
Username: Qferrari
Post Number: 149
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 6:51 am: | |
Magoo- I totally understand, and, you're right about the flaw in my analogy. As I said, from the comments related here, I will be wary of the K&N...not enough to switch yet or completely discount their effectiveness, but wary nonetheless.
|
Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member
Username: Lawrence
Post Number: 422
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 5:05 pm: | |
Golly Magoo, you sound like your are a Sooner. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3751
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 4:17 pm: | |
Marq, Good analogy. The only part that I disagree with is when I put the lighter coat on I know immediately that I feel as warm or warmer than the heavy coat. When I would install the K&N filter I wouldn't know until I had problems later on. I just can't put the faith in it for the reasons I have explained. Some of the guys like them. I just have doubts..... |
Marq J Ruben (Qferrari)
Junior Member
Username: Qferrari
Post Number: 138
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 8:55 am: | |
Magoo, not necessarily (IMHO). Many products are capable of doing the same thing via different ways. For example, it used to be necessary to wear a very heavy coat to stay warm. Now they have super-thin fabrics that keep you as warm/warmer than the old materials. Just because you look at the fabric and its thin, doesn't mean it can't keep you warm. Just because you can hear more noise, may not mean its not filtering dirt as well. Many times one looks at a product and feels (based on previous notions/experience) that there's no way it can do what its supposed to do.
I'm not saying thats the case with the K&N filters but you have to be aware of the possibility.
As I said, after reading this post and the reports, I will definitely be more wary of the K&N and will, most assuredly, keep a better eye on whats happening there.
Again, here on Ferrari Chat, everyones opinions, information and experience has caused me to question previous notions. That's why I'm here. What a wealth of information for me, a novice Ferrari owner.
|
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3743
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 12:32 am: | |
I guess what I am saying is that I have a hard time believing that the filter does better than the orig. filter. Doesn't it make sense that if you hear the sucking sound of the venturi better that the filter has to be allowing more access or less filtering to get the sound? Just a thought. |
Marq J Ruben (Qferrari)
Junior Member
Username: Qferrari
Post Number: 137
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 4:17 pm: | |
Kermit, you're right about their response. I was on another site and I saw the exact same response, word for word, except it was signed by a different person. That is their 'standard' corporate response.
I, too, have been running K&N filters for a long time. I had a TVR on which I ran them for 225,000 miles over a 20+ year period and there was NEVER any problem. I will continue to run them but, as you said, will keep an eye on them. Also, as you stated, I have never personally seen or ever heard of a problem with them and my friends with everything from British sports cars to Z06s, Impala SS, and on and on, all run them with no problem...
|
Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 88
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 9:35 am: | |
When it's all said and done, I'll still be running them. I will however be watchfull for ANY particulate matter getting past. In all honesty, the response I posted from K&N was IMO a bit too (insert name here), and therefore gets very little creditability. The fact still remains, I have never had or personally seen any problems with them. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 8:53 pm: | |
I've been using K&N filters on my motocycles and cars since the late 60s with no ill effects. That included use in everything between a Suzuki TM250 motocross bike to my current Boxer. If you clean the filter every few thousand miles and re-oil it every other time, you will have no engine problems from using a K&N filter. You will get a a little better sound and maybe a little more power. Just MHO |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3709
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 7:42 pm: | |
Personally I'll stick with the factory type recommended filter. They built the engine they should know. So for me if it ain't broke don't fix it. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 329
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 4:01 pm: | |
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that off-road cars use 3 stage filters not 1 stage...with 2 oiled and 1 dry. So the "used of off-road vehicles" hype is fairly misleading. |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 3035
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 3:51 pm: | |
If you run completely open velocity stacks you should expect to pull the engine apart to check and possibly replace bearings, etc between 5-10k miles depending on where you drive. So where I drive would be much closer to the 10k miles side with no filter whatsoever. That's with 0% filtration. Any filter is going to do infinitely better than those 10k miles, and how long do I go without pulling it apart. That said, I find it very hard to believe that a K&N couldn't take care of an engine. Even if it's right that K&N doesn't filter as much as some other oiled filter, if you run this super restrictive, anti flowing filter what are you gonna extend the life of the bearings, etc from 150k miles to 200k miles, big deal. I'm sure K&N doesn't sell a ridiculously large amount of filters because they don't work. Plus, an oiled filter is clearly going to work better than a dry one. It's simple common sense, rub you're hand over your workbench. Now rub some oil on your hand and go run it over the same workbench. Obviously you're gonna pickup more dust with the latter one. So I agree with the cut and paste, and of course I have a K&N in the 308 (and the jeep for that matter). |
Manu (Manu)
Member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 574
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 7:41 am: | |
A filter is a filter - let's not be silly now - with flow like a K&N, 99% filtration is AMAZING - perhaps too Amazing. |
Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member
Username: Lawrence
Post Number: 419
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 6:19 am: | |
My 400E has had two K and N filters (it requires two) for 107K miles. Oil remains clean until it is changed. No metal parts in crankcase ever. My track junky friends swear by them for their vehicles. I've had one on my track car for 40K miles. No problems anywhere.
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magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3687
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 6:52 pm: | |
If I remember correctly we lost a few of those Apache Helicopters during Desert Storm. Ninty nine percent of the particles ,dirt, filterd. Well that is amazing! If it sounds to good to be true it probably is....... All negative comments aside I just have a hard time believing it. |
Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 86
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 10:21 am: | |
And the responsefrom K&N is:
"Dear customer,
Here is some information regarding our air filters. It is length but has
some good information.
Our filters are tested by an outside, independent laboratory. They have
been proven to stop at least 99% of particles on a SAE dust test. This test
uses particles as low as the 0 - 5 micron range and goes up to 20 microns.
For comparison, a paper filter also stops 99% on the same test and the OEM
minimum standard is 96%. Foam is generally the worst media with a typical
efficiency rating of 75 - 85%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be more
dense and therefore way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic of a K&N
allows for increase filtration without loss of flow as well.
The testing procedure used is SAE J-726 using ISO Test Dust. This test
is the standard of the air filter industry. The test procedure consists of
flowing air through the filter at a constant rate (airflow rate is
determined by the application) while feeding test dust into the air stream
at a rate of 1 gram per cubic meter of air.
As the filter loads with dust the pressure drop across the filter is
increased to maintain the prescribed airflow rate. The test is continued
until the pressure drop increases 10" H2O above the initial restriction of
the clean element (in this case .78" to 10.78" H2O). At this point the test
is terminated. The dirty filter element is then weighed. This weight is
compared to the clean element weight to determine the total Dust Capacity.
The amount of dust retained by the filter is divided by the total amount of
dust fed during the test to determine the Cumulative Efficiency.
The K&N filter achieved the following results:
Dust Capacity: 305 grams
Cumulative Efficiency: 99.05 %
Holding the filter to the light is useless, pin holes are normal. That
is what makes a K&N filter. There are actually hundreds of microscopic
fibers that cross these holes and when treated with oil, capture and hold
the very fine particles. On the same hand, they allow the filter to flow
more air than paper or foam. The filter is 4 ply cotton gauze unlike some
competitors synthetic material filters. The synthetics do not have the very
small fibers that natural cotton does. Also, the oil can be pulled off of a
foam filter contaminating electronic sensors. It will absorb into cotton
and stay in the media. In fact, Honda and Toyota only recommend K&N filters
when using aftermarket high flow filters as K&N is the only brand of filter
the oil does NOT come off of. They will not cover a failed sensor if foam
filters were used.
We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off
road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their
cars and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here
we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing
every year.
We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock,
Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the
2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made filters for the Apache helicopters
used in Desert Storm because of maintenance problems with the original paper
design. If they work in these conditions they will work for you.
Hope this helps.
Thank you,
Lisa Sutton
K&N Technical Support
PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS CUT'N'PASTE. i DO NOT AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE STATEMENT, NOR DO I MAKE ANY CAIMS AS TO THE VALIDITY
|
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3679
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 10:06 am: | |
I for one was sold on the filter because I like hearing the carb sound better in my 308. But when you ride down the road and unexpectedly come into a construction area or a lot of blowing dust it makes you wonder how much of that is going into the engine. |
Robert Mann (Robertmann)
New member
Username: Robertmann
Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 9:17 am: | |
Ben,
Thanks for the info. I have been believing this for some years and had stopped using the K&N filters totally.
Robert Mann |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3665
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 9:22 pm: | |
Good move on the info. Ben...... |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2257
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 12:30 am: | |
Good work Ben, thanks for posting those links. Even if the info is taken with a grain of salt, its interesting to note the similar conclusions... |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 930
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 6:43 pm: | |
After finding out what I did, I went searching to see if others found the same results, I found a few, but I'm not sure how much I believe what I read (especially on the net):
http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/airfilter.html
http://coolynx.virtualave.net/z3/upgrades/performance/kn-filter/kn-filter.htm
http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Upgrade/Air_filter.htm
http://www.z28.com/amsoil/important_articles/k&n_vs_amsoil_air_filter.html
www.ibmwr.org/otech/airfilter.html
www.realbig.com/miata/miata/1994-02/412.html
http://www.bonnevillemotorwerks.com/dynocharts/intake/KN/kntest.pdf
The last one is an actual PDF of a lab test (that is referred to in some of the other links).
Enjoy.
-Ben |
Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member
Username: 350hpmondial
Post Number: 221
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 5:14 pm: | |
AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa ha ha
Pros & CON's
Like in "EX Cons.?"
|
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3650
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 5:02 pm: | |
Also you can be sure K&N will produce their "OWN" test specs. Anyone heard any other pos and cons test comparisons? |
Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Member
Username: Eurocardoc
Post Number: 408
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 6:59 am: | |
Ah, you guys probably used STP once as well! Can't beat good old fashioned BS to succa the public. |
Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member
Username: 350hpmondial
Post Number: 218
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 7:18 pm: | |
Matt,
I with you on this one. I have bouht K&N in the past and ran them on cheap engines. But, by including the cost of a rebiuld in an F-Car in the equation, it no longer looks to me like a way to get cheep HP.
But, you can bet that the K&N shareholders can afford to shorten the life of their engines. ha ha |
Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 85
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 5:58 pm: | |
I have E-mailed K&N and asked for their stats, etc. Their site lists "independant lab tests"
Note quotation marks. I'll post whatever they come back with. Sorting thru marketing hype is a PITA!
Following is a cut and paste of my letter to them. We'll see soon. My first effort included a link which may have been the reason for their system rejecting it.
"Sirs,
I will try one last time on this topic. Earlier this week I forwarded a link to Ferrari Chat that discussed your filters. My E-mail was returned by an automated system.
I am a well knownengine builder of Ferrari motors, and would like some support in defending you air filters.
I am sending this sans link, as I think that may have been the reason for return.
If you wish to be of assistance, please reply. If not, I will have to post on that thread eather way as they are awaiting my findings.
Thank You,
M.J."Kermit" Morgan " |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 672
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 2:19 am: | |
Riding with Rob Garven: He got SERIOUS pissed when a car in front of us left the road, kicking up a cloud of dust. "I've got a K&N, for Chrissakes!!" |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3640
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 10:20 pm: | |
I agree Manu, If the venturi sounds are louder then you know the filter is not as good as the orig. filter to stop micro. particles from going into the engine. If the oil were thick enough to stop particles the venturi vacuum would pull it through the filter leaving basicly none on the element. I have my doubts on how good these filters are but again who knows how much filtering you need before potential damage occurs. Over time who can prove it? |
Manu (Manu)
Member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 561
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 11:01 am: | |
Not sure about K&N - the flow is superb - but I'm really not sure about the "FILTER" job they are supposed to be doing............. |
Justin Randall Kenyon (Kenyon)
New member
Username: Kenyon
Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 10:52 am: | |
I have one on my 348 and will never use the stock ones again.
clean the filter every 6,000 miles.
I have had K&N filters on all my cars for the last 10 years. No problems ever. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 924
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 3:23 pm: | |
Peter -
I have that saved somewhere as well, just don't ask me to pull it up anytime soon. IIRC there was also a city municipality that got convinced to change to a similiar type of long life air filter (not sure they publicly shared what brand), they changed back after a good amount of time, for pretty much the same reasons as well. Guess I just wanted to believe that things (technology, manufacturing, etc.) had improved, but alas things haven't changed. Keep in mind that in race applications all they have to do is make it across the finish line, then the rebuilding/refreshing process can begin again, certainly not something I want to even think abot in my street car.
-Ben |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3632
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 11:45 pm: | |
Peter, I agree. If you put less restrictions on the air passing through the air filter you will allow more particles to enter the venturi. |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2242
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 11:15 pm: | |
I wish I knew how to call up old posts from the Ferrarilist... I remember someone on there doing a particulate test on filters and the K&N admitted the most crud into the engine. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 191
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 8:10 pm: | |
Thanks Ben, I'm clear now. I've been using them for years and am getting ready to buy another and I just want to be sure of the facts. |
Red (Redhead)
Junior Member
Username: Redhead
Post Number: 87
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 7:39 pm: | |
Another K/N bad experince.......
After working in an Auto parts store since I was 15, at 20 I finally had a car "worthy" of a K/N. I bought it, followed the instructions, and what I had been telling customers for years how to treat them and the sort, and less then 5 months later, check engine light is on.
Ran the codes and it came up as MAF (Mass Air Flow Meter), which on a 93 Mustang Cobra, is 3 inches away from the k/n. Took out the MAF and the K/N, and noticed that on the MAF there was an oily substance that had gotten in through out the inner working of the MAF.
With some spray cleaner, cleaned it out, and cleared the codes, and put in a $18 stock filter and never had the problem again. I did not over oil it, or anything of the sort as well.
Just another point of view in favor of Ben. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 919
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 6:58 pm: | |
Here I was trying to let sleeping horses lie...
I will try to answer everyone's questions.
Jeff: "could there have been a abnormality such as a dusty day or heavy pollution that would cause this result" sure anything is possible, but the purpose of the air filter is to keep debris out, not sure yet if paper will do a better job, at this point it's more of an assumtion, per the test results/reccomendation. We'll just have to see.
Mark: I installed the K&N after (guessing here) about 500 miles into my last oil did another approx 4k on it, and during my recent change sent out the sample. Just changed the oil and removed the K&N air filter back to stock now. So I don't have any miles on the stock filer/new oil in which to do a direct comparason test (at this time), but I will when I can. The results of the sample, showed that the air filter was suspect, as stated below in this thread.
Ken: While I agree with you that just changing the oil more often isn't a bad thing, my oil change took 12 (of 16 from dry) quarts and a ~$40 oil filter, could get pricey to do it every 3-6 months, just for the sake of doing it. Also the lab that tested my oil (owned and operated by the oil manufacturer), recommended I continue using the oil that they had sampled and resample at a shorter interval (it was a little too late for that idea)! So why change the oil if it isn't bad (or still doing it's job properly and effectively - even after 4k miles?)?
Kermit: Look forward to your findings.
-Ben |
Ken (Allyn)
Member
Username: Allyn
Post Number: 576
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 6:25 pm: | |
I did consider a K&N myself last year. I change my oil every few months and usually less than 2000 miles so grit shouldn't be too bad. As I mentioned, my larger diameter headers threw off everything else though: the 'glowing headers' syndrome, backfire from too lean, poor cold starts and running...I found that a tweak here and a tweak there eventually had my carb Lotus running better than ever but it was a process as I'm no expert and an exasperating one at that. Even a piece of tape over a 1" diameter air hole in the intake made a difference. At the moment, I don't care to do all that again; I like the way the car runs now that I have it right. Maybe Ferraris are different in being more tolerent of changes like more air in. If you change your oil a lot like I do, all you have to lose is the money spent and you can always go back to stock. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 190
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 6:13 pm: | |
Ben, did you put in new oil when you installed the filter and changed it again 500 miles later? Or was the oil already in? Also did you repeat the test on the new oil? I just want to be sure I understand the test |
Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 84
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 12:52 pm: | |
Hi Ben,
I have my parts people looking into the matter. Any info I'll pass along. In all fairness, the uses I earlier refered to were racing stuff, not long term street use, which is much different.
And Jeff, I would think that the "bean counters" in Detroit would push to go with the cheapest, and we know K&N isn't. Good or bad, I'll pass info ASAP |
jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member
Username: Atheyg
Post Number: 105
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 7:52 pm: | |
The next oil result should be interesting, but could there have been a abnormality such as a dusty day or heavy pollution that would cause this result?
I don't think K&N has a patent on this technology and if it were superior OEMs would be utilizing the oil filter, my trucks as well as many other types of heavy diesel equipment are in severe dust situations daily where reliablity and longevity is paramount, it would seem appropriate and more economical to use a cleanable air filter as opposed to replacing them regularly with OE paper ones, maybe K&N technology is snake oil
|
Marq J Ruben (Qferrari)
Junior Member
Username: Qferrari
Post Number: 121
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 6:24 pm: | |
I look forward to the oil analysis after you've run the stock paper filter for a time. Hmmm...could and should be most interesting.
Ben, please keep us informed.
|
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 915
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 5:57 pm: | |
Kermit,
Not trying to argue with ya here, I know you are very talented and knowledgable (we've met before!), but for the sake of discussion....My K&N filter was installed NEW (The box stated Pre-oiled ready to install), in May 2001, this was within 500 miles of the last (motor) oil change. It's my understanding, that they don't need re-oiling every year (only every few years or so), do they? It's only been in 1.5 years (and about 4k miles), to date.
I am also open to more input, but as the facts stand in front of me, it's being removed from my car, as I don't like gritty lube. Thoughts are welcomed (from everyone) but further hard proof and evidence (from anyone), will be needed to sway me to put it back in. Long life of my engine (and the costs of rebuilds etc.) comes foremost (in my eyes) to power enhancement.
Here is the thread from my initial install:
http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/11/990.html
-Ben
P.S. I will do another oil analysis after some time with the stock filter to see if there is any change.
|
Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 81
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 4:25 pm: | |
Keep me infoe'd please Ben. I have used K&N on offroad racers with great success. That's why I believein them. I am still open to input though. Rob has an interesting point that may hold an answer. The Oil is the Key to how will they work. In that respect the More air/more dirt concept doesn't feel right to me.
I certainly cannot argue with an oil analysis though! |
Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Junior Member
Username: 350hpmondial
Post Number: 213
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 12:13 pm: | |
Ben & Ken,
I used to work in an Oil Analysis Lab. (Analysis Incorporated in Alameda, CA. If you Ferrari Guys want to check your oil for excess babbit, their your Lab.)
And, You hit the nail on the head. Less flow restriction does mean more dirt.
(Since my car has a turbo, I get plenty of air. It's the not the air retriction problem I worrie about It's the not enough fuel scenario that worries me. ... ... Lean burn = melted piston = loss of $$ that really scares my wallet.)
So, I run a stock filter can with the stock UFI paper filter.
My car is fast enough. I'm either gonna run it for a long time -or- sell it and trade up to a 512 BBi. (It's always for sale at $39k)
Sure a K&N (or one of those little plastic-day-glow Honda type "R" filters) will give you 5% more HP. But at what cost? |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2848
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 11:29 am: | |
Keep us informed, do you keep the K&N oiled, I guess if you just put it in, then it probably wasn't time to oil the filter. I think it's common sense that any increase in air flow through an air filter will let more dirt in. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 913
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 11:15 am: | |
Kermit,
I had a spectrometric analysis of the oil done, it read HIGH in silicon (dirt). This is a measure of airborn dust and air contamination usually indicative or improper air cleaner service. Excessive dirt and abrasives can accelerate component wear, which can affect long term operating costs.
Since the K&N filter has been in place a majority of the life of this oil, I would have to say that yes it does provide more flow, but at a cost I'm not willing to spend. I will be putting back the stock filter (only about 50 miles on the new oil so far), and look to see a change in my next oil analysis.
Look forward to your thoughts.
-Ben
|
Ken (Allyn)
Member
Username: Allyn
Post Number: 570
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 10:20 am: | |
Nick, carb car or FI? If you have carbs you may find you need to readjust the mixture. More air in needs a richer mixture. You also will need to change the timing a bit. I had a devil of a time getting everything right when I put larger headers on my Lotus and it only has 2 carbs. But the result was worth the hassle; just be aware that when you change one thing, it has a trickle down efferct on the rest. With FI I can't say if your system will make the necessary adjustments on its own; you'll need to find out. |
Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 80
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 9:50 am: | |
Ben, I don't understand. How are you checking the amount of contaminent passing thru? I have had great results W/K&N, but I am always open to info. Thanks.
Kermit |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 911
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 12:51 am: | |
I'm very concerned with the amount of contaminant that has passed thru my K&N filter, I am switching back to stock to see if there is an improvement. I will keep the board updated. Use at your own risk.
-Ben |
Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member
Username: Kermit
Post Number: 77
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 11:44 am: | |
I haven't tried those to be honest. After long term luck with K&N, and flowbench testing them against stock 308 elements, that is all I'll use.
The 'puter I'm on right now has one covering the intake fan. Having a power unit goe out cuz of shop related particulate matter is a disaster. |
Nick Yim (Yimn)
New member
Username: Yimn
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 8:04 am: | |
I am thinking about changing the stock air filter to high-flow filter made by TSI or Koenig. Anyone has tried. Pros and Cons |