| Author |
Message |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 42
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 5:38 pm: | |
Finally found my old notes:
Manual specifies 230g, TSB states increase to 280g. |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 1:59 pm: | |
The reason for the increase is the grease is integral for successful harmonic dampening and Ferrari discovered a bit more improved the damping quality.
You're correct that there probably is 100 partial cans of the special grease laying around shops just in the U.S.
With Ferrari's expensive quality machined installation tool, the seals go on in 10 seconds, bam! done.
"If you need a machine and you don't buy it,
you pay for it and you don't get it."
- Henry Ford
Words to live by if your in manufacturing or use machinery to make a living.
|
Jeff B. (Miltonian)
New member
Username: Miltonian
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 10:53 am: | |
Parts Department at Ferrari of Seattle told me that they had only 1/2 can of the grease in stock and had to order more. They didn't want to sell the open container, which I can understand. I think they quoted me $70 for a full can. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 98
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:54 am: | |
Oh yeah you are right about the grease volume. I never read the TSB nor do I Know the exact amount. The manual says 180g but I do not know the reason for the increase. I was told that it was to take up slop in the worn plastic parts but no one knew for sure. You are the only other person who I have run accross who knows about the extra grease. I'm not sure why the amount is so critical. The last recollection was 250g. I actually measure what I am supposded to use. But come to think of it aren't those cans 500g? If so perhaps the TSB was for laziness...use 1/2 can? There were probably 30 1/3 of a can left of expensive grease all over F shops accros the country. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 97
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:49 am: | |
Rex,
You gotta have a tool for the 3 seals....if you call them that. I tried the hot water and gentle massage...then I swore. None of the three worked. I had to make a tool. Aren't those the crappiest seals you ever saw? I do not know what the asnwer is but there has got to be a better way. |
Jeff B. (Miltonian)
New member
Username: Miltonian
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 10:30 pm: | |
Thanx to Rexrcr and Billy Bob for the information. I will be "attacking" the flywheel shortly, and will try to get some good detail pictures for other 348 owners to see. At the moment, I don't know how bad it is, but there are a few new fluid drops in the garage. I didn't know what the "clattering" noise was until I learned from this site. Good stuff!! |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 37
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 9:48 pm: | |
There is a TSB on the grease quantity and it's not 180g.
The tool is avail. from M&MS, manufacturer is Gedore and Gedore part number stamped on the tool is "No.43-8".
It's the triple seal on the input shaft which having the install tool makes things easier. You can also try soaking the triple seals in hot water in an attempt to soften for easier installation, don't know if it works, I always had the tool. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 91
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 9:00 am: | |
Forgot...If flywheel is dry inside some add 250 grms to take up for plastic parts wear. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 90
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 8:59 am: | |
Jeff,
180 grams grease, airtool yes, MMS may have tool but does not know where it is. O-ring can be made with an o-ring splice kit. open flywheel carefully like a can of snakes will jump out then you won't have problems putting it back together. 150 ft/lbs on your air gun. Ignore set screw (you'll se it). You can make the three special tools you need 1) clutch alignment 2) flywheel nut remover 3) three ring circus seal replacer. |
Jeff B. (Miltonian)
New member
Username: Miltonian
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 2:23 pm: | |
Rexrcr, thank you for your patience, I had one specific question about the procedure that I should have asked. When removing the flywheel from the cover, I assume that ring nut is on there pretty tight. Is it OK to use an impact wrench on it, or would the "shock" be potentially harmful to the innards? I don't see a torque spec for the nut for reinstalling it. Loctite?
Is the function of the special tool self-explanatory once you have the flywheel off? Again, I don't see anything in the manual to explain this, so your help is much appreciated! |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 12:17 pm: | |
"How difficult is it to remove, disassemble, clean, refill, and refit the flywheel once the clutch cover has been removed?"
Metric and Multistandard sells the wrench needed to disassemble the flywheel. You'll need seals for the concentric input/output shafts from a dealer, tub-o-grease from a dealer and ability to measure the corect amount of grease for refill. Then it's just R&R and careful cleaning. Note that the flywheel guts go together only one way and the orientation of springs and such can be confusing if you just dump it all out.
The large O-ring on the flywheel OD does not need replacement if you're careful. |
Jeff B. (Miltonian)
New member
Username: Miltonian
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 6:39 pm: | |
I'm new to the site, enjoying it very much. Thanks to all of you who are sharing your knowledge and experience.
My 348 has the typical flywheel symptoms (clattering noise on start and shutoff, occasional hot start difficulty). I replaced the clutch two years ago, so I know the basics, but I wonder if one of you could describe the procedure for repairing the flywheel itself. How difficult is it to remove, disassemble, clean, refill, and refit the flywheel once the clutch cover has been removed?
Warning signs/trouble areas to watch for?
My 348 is a late 1990 TS with single plate clutch.
Thanks! |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3715
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 8:47 pm: | |
Rexrcr, I wondered what happened to you? I see you just got initiated into the "bad comment zone." Prepare yourself there will be more. |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 7:42 pm: | |
For those shade tree Ferrari 348 mechanics, clutch and flywheel inspection, removal, replacement, is about as easy as it gets with the way the assembly hangs off the back of the gearbox. Yes, you can get into trouble, but there's help on this forum if you have the time. Go ahead, pop the bumper cover, exhaust, etc, go slow, take notes, no big deal. |
Scotty (Pzerowaster)
Junior Member
Username: Pzerowaster
Post Number: 52
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 6:10 pm: | |
Fire away your guys... I love this kind of information. This is what makes this place such a great resource for everyone. I just gotta say thanks for sharing your wisdom.
BTW - by looking at my gargage floor, looks like some tiny blobs of grease, but I also found a clear fluid drip peeking out of that cover on the bottom. So I suppose my flywheel is flingin' grease, AND I have a leaking slave cylinder? Looks like an addition to my list of winter projects... |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 5:28 pm: | |
"How about they don't have mechanics who understand multi discs and can't fix them? So it is easier to teach the mechanic to slap a single disc in the required time to turn the next car."
Bob, that stings a bit. Can't we all just get along?
There is always more than one reason to change or update a design from the manufacturer's perspective. Cost is always a factor, and I suppose in some cases difficulty in field repair may be a very valid reason. In the case of 348 dual disc change to single, it was a cost vs. performance issue. Cost to manufacture, cost to warranty repair, and improvement in materials also allowed the changeover. The Challenge configuration was single disc, four puck, solid hub for increased pressure capacity and shift quality. This was a very reliable installation. Making a broad statement about Tilton, etc. does not take into consideration the details of the installation environment, the "total package". A full race installation with dual or triple disc clutch is totally different than a Ferrari street installation. I personally installed a triple carbon-carbon in an F40 because we needed improved moment of inertia characteristics which yielded only a performance increase. The factory dual disc set-up was more than adequate for reliability only.
Maybe we should start a new topic. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 328
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 3:53 pm: | |
The grease is used in all the dual mass flywheels, single & double disc.
When the grease is gone the engine makes a strange clattering noise on start-up and especially shut-down. |
Eugene Angelo (Eangelo)
New member
Username: Eangelo
Post Number: 18
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 11:18 pm: | |
Is this clutch grease only used on the double plate clutches, or is it also used on the single plate clutches? |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 303
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 11:50 am: | |
Scotty, never know it could be the grease. The clutch uses brake fluid so that's a dead giveaway as to what it may be. Also the resevoir level will slowly drop if it's the clutch seals.
Joseph, yes the 355 F1's have a clutch setup that is actuated with the levers, via computer, and they can develop leaks also. |
Scotty (Pzerowaster)
New member
Username: Pzerowaster
Post Number: 50
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 8:37 am: | |
Mine seems to be a bit more viscous than brake fluid. I better give it a sniff... |
Joseph Caretti (Pino)
Junior Member
Username: Pino
Post Number: 116
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 9:23 pm: | |
Interesting JRV. Not to hi-jack this thread, but does a 355 have the same throw-out bearing seals as the 348? An oily substance is starting to seep from my perforated plate as well, but I assumed it was the rear main seal. My car is an F1 if that matters. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 288
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 8:03 pm: | |
It sounds like your clutch T/O bearing seals are leaking. Check the fluid, it's likely brake fluid. |
Scotty (Pzerowaster)
New member
Username: Pzerowaster
Post Number: 49
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 7:58 pm: | |
Funny you guys brought this up. I just noticed that my 348 just started drippin' on the garage floor. It's coming out of that little holey four bolt cover under the clutch housing. Is this the seal leaking you guys are talking about? The last time it was at Algar, the fella there told me I need to have the flywheel rebuilt soon. Damn, looks like my car needs some lovey dovey, huh? Comments? TIA
Scotty |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 280
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 11:57 am: | |
I'm with Billy Bob on this one.
Well put Billy !
;-) |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 84
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 2:19 am: | |
Dave,
Don't think about the next owner. It is just a car...enjoy it! Race it! Enjoy it! |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 396
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 6:34 am: | |
thanks Billy, I think in just 6 months ownership I'm beginning to get a grip on the Ferrari unobtainium and untouchable by mortal mechanics myths.
I guess its trying to strike a balance to what is DIY achievable and the minimal stuff that neesd a dealer stamp i.e. what the next owner along the line would be happy to accept |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 83
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:45 pm: | |
Dave,
Don't panic. REX may be an awesome source on many Ferraris. He says he raced them and was involved with a dealer so that is right from the horses mouth. That being said my primary MO is to reverse engineer what Ferrari does. You see it is all about cost benefit for the factory not what is best for you. Many people think the single disc upgrade sold by the factory is the best setup for 348's. Well in racing circles I know multi disc clutch is the way to go. Why would Ferrari go back to a single disc? How about they don't have mechanics who understand multi discs and can't fix them? So it is easier to teach the mechanic to slap a single disc in the required time to turn the next car. Most owners are that into the actual running of the car and say hey if Ferrari says the single disc is an upgrade I guess it is. Well that infinate wisdom aside when the Ferrari F1 team uses a single plate clutch and Tilton decides to drop the multis and make only singles I'll conceed defeat. Until then the dual disc single disc IMHO is a Ferrari factory decision to make their life easy. Now under certain parameters a single disc and be better than a dual in specific application. Was that compromise engineered? Only Luigi knows.
You are right on target about basically pinning the flywheel parts together. There are several ways to do this all involving time and machining. One day I'll play with it but actually Since I can pop a clutch in and out in 2 hours I find little impetus to figure out the best solution. It is not that big a deal but the dealers and mechanics scare the •••• out of the customer to justify the 2-5000 buck repair bill. At retail price the grease is $40 and the actual clutch plates can be rebuilt by Friction Materiasls in LB. CA. for about $20 per plate retail! So do the math on that. Oh you need a special expensive Ferrari tool...yes I made mine for less than $5. You thought your doctor made a lot of money? |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 393
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 3:06 am: | |
billy, being a relatively early ('91) 348TS owner I look forward to some clearly well informed guy like you working a marketable solution to the dual mass flywheel. This flywheel issue is the one that worries me the most (alongside cambelt failure/slippage that is).
I'm not familiar with the components so please excuse my ignorance but if the 'dual mass' property of the flywheel can be lived without, whats the problem with just devising a way to remove all the grease and lock the two parts together permanently? |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 82
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 12:16 am: | |
Rex said:
"In the extreme situation of ignoring the problem, the grease is finally all gone and you may think the problem is gone, too. WRONG, big trouble around the corner. Now the engine harmonics are not dampened enough and expensive internal parts of the engine and transaxle are at risk. "
I find this hard to believe that this was the real cause of the gearbox break up. 348's have shitty gearboxes. I know of 3 challenge cars and 2 street cars with known failures of the clutch shaft stake ring not being staked causing GB's to blow. I a sure there are more out there. Shaft carrier bearing destruction sounds more like the problem I described above. But if you saw it it must be true. The Voight dampned flywheel was to reduce vibrations for drivability and nothing else. You can go with a solid flywheel on any dampned flywheel car. Porshe aftermarket guys do this all the time with BMW guys a close second. Ferrari guys just suffer and open their wallets. The real problem with the grease issue is 1) lack of grease causes the plastic parts in the FW to wear. Then any amount of new grease does not help keep the parts from slaping around. FNA does not sell these plastic parts either. Wear them out buy a new flywheel. Also the job is techically difficult. FNA has less warrantee headaches if they just replace the flywheel. Besides its just your money. 2) lack of grease allows driveline vibration on start-up to send bad impulses to the TDC sensors and the cars don't start. Evidenced by a hard hot start problem progressing to a cold start problem too when it gets really bad. These gear boxes handle 300-325 HP and even harder use in the unmodified Challenge form except for minor questionalbe gearchange in some ratio that does not effect the strength of the box. The flywheel vibrating a bit is not going to cause any problem on start up. Everything is shaking on relative terms. Once the flywheel is turning the centrifical force drives all the parts out and even if the part parts rattle they are contained in set spaces in cutouts in the flywheel and the unit is balanced. The only unbalance comes at startup then everything cranks and shudders. I'm no mechanic but I am 99% sure of my facts here and I have lived them too and rebuilt a couple 348 gearboxes. Boy those triple hard plastic seals...what a joke! They could have made one good seal instead of using 3 crappy ones. They could have sealed the passage between the shaft and the flywheel so the grease does not get wet with GB oil. If anyone wants to make the special tool e-mail me how. You need a welder, metal chop saw, old bearing race bigger than the ringnut, an old socket and some 1/4" mild steel stock, a propane torch and some oil and one hour. That goes for all the Ferrari special tools that are like the 4 pin ring castle nuttype. I'm not disputing you REX but offer another data point. Maybe you have knowledge on the 348 system. I'm going from why car manufacturers use these flywheel systems and personal experiance and anecdotal reporting. I see two ways to solve the problem 1) make solid flywheels 2) replace the plastic parts with soemthing else. One day I'll work on the project and save lots of 348 owners much headache. The solid flywheels is difficult due to the funny cake platter looking design. |
Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member
Username: Asianbond
Post Number: 103
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 8:00 pm: | |
Rexrcr, what are the telltale signs that this is the happening? What about when you hear a chatter from the transmission area when shutting down the engine? |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 27
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 7:56 pm: | |
I saw this topic in the archives and the old posts won't come forward into the current stuff. Just FYI:
Some insight on a small problem becoming a potentially HUGE issue.
The grease is indeed used as a key part in the flywheel/harmonic balancer assembly. What can and does (I've seen the extreme) happen is the seals on the concentric input and output shafts deteriorate and allow transaxle oil to mix with the white flywheel grease. This changes the viscosity of the grease, turns the color dark and oozes out of the outer o-ring which seals the flywheel assembly. The grease is then ejected out of the clutch housing. By the time you see all this happening, best rebuild ASAP.
In the extreme situation of ignoring the problem, the grease is finally all gone and you may think the problem is gone, too. WRONG, big trouble around the corner. Now the engine harmonics are not dampened enough and expensive internal parts of the engine and transaxle are at risk.
Last time I saw this extreme, it required a complete trans rebuild due to output shaft carrier bearing destruction. Lucky the whole 'box didn't blow.
The large outer O-ring does not require replacement, only the seals on the concentric shafts. Metric and Multistandard sells the special wrench required to disassemble the flywheel. And the dealer network has a very cool special tool to facilitate installation of the triple seal set-up on the input shaft.
Ps. There is a TSB on the grease quantity. Ferrari recommends an increase over what the manual specifies, by, I think 40cc, from 180 to 220 but I'm going on memory here, don't quote me. TSB came out in 1994 I think.
This is a relatively easy fix if caught early. |