| Author |
Message |
David Lewis (Davidlewis)
New member
Username: Davidlewis
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 5:30 pm: | |
Thanks Bill,
Actually I was interested in both issues.
Looks like it is the best policy to seal absolutely every interface involved here.
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Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 225
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 6:14 pm: | |
Dave--oops, you were asking about the sealing--sorry. Anyway, I did the job as recommended by a number of Chat members, but it still leaks! I did the job very carefully , used Permatex #2 sealant, cleaned all of the studs/ threads carefully, but it still seeps out. A mechanic friend of mine recommended an additional measure which I'll do next. In addition to using sealant on threds of the studs, he recommended using some form-a- gasket material on both sides of the aluminum spacer ( between both the engine block and mount bracket). I'm thinking of actually making a couple of thin gaskets for this job. My leaking appears to be at the bottom of the mating between the aluminum spacer and the engine. I believe a gasket and sealer should stop it good--I hope. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 224
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 6:04 pm: | |
Dave--yes, I did fix the problem of the spinning motor mount bolt. I removed the bolt from the other rear mount, jacked up the back of the engine , using a large flat piece of wood between the jack and the tranny pan, and, in doing so, the springs inside of the mount compressed, revealing more of the threaded shaft which the bolt screws into. At the lower part of the shaft, ie closest to the large washer between the frame and the mount, there were 2 flat spots to allow the use of a thin wrench to take hold of. While I didn't have the right-sized metric wrench ( I think that it's either 20 or 21mm), a 3/4" wrench fit perfectly. I then was able to unscrew the bolt while holding the shaft steady with the wrench. To correct the problem, I ran a tap into the threads of the mount , which were cruddy, cleaned off the bolt threads real well, applied anti-seize compound, and , unpon reinstalling the bolt, it went in very smoothly without any binding until it was totally tightened. Apparently, the crap on the threads was causing the whole problem .
Another wierd thing about Ferrari engineering design --- why the don't have the flat spots running up the entire shaft, so getting a wrench on it wouldn't be so difficult---par for the course it seems. With the flats only on the ends, one needs to jack up the engine as high as possible and you still need a very thin wrench. |
David Lewis (Davidlewis)
New member
Username: Davidlewis
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 2:58 pm: | |
Bill,
Did you end up solving your problem?
I'm interested in how the end of your job went as I am about to do the same sealing job on mine.
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Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 220
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 7:41 pm: | |
Thanks , Mark and Magoo. I'll check that out tomorrow. I think I do recall flat spots on that inner post on the mount I had removed. However, with that mount, I just removed and re-installed the bolt w/o having to put a wrench to it. The same with the spinning one--it came out smoothly also. Anyway, I know what you mean and I'll try to get a wrench in there . If all else fails, I assume I'll be left with the option of drilling out the bolt--that should be a real party. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 272
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 6:36 pm: | |
Bill,
If I recall, there is a post that the bolt screws into that should be turning too. That post has flats on it to put a wrench on so you can tighten the bolt. But I also recall it must be a very thin wrench. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3924
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 6:18 pm: | |
Bill, There is a spring inside of the mount. The whole unit is either turning inside or the spring is broken and spinning freely. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 219
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 6:07 pm: | |
Well, I finally finished the job--amen. However, the saga has not ended as yet. I removed both motor mount bolts in order to jack up the engine--which worked just fine. However, upon reinstalling the bolts, one just keeps turning and will not fully tighten--in addition, it won't loosen either. There is a small hole in the side of the mount and I can see the innards turning as I torque the bolt. I can also hear a "sprong "-type of sound ( like a spring each time I turn it). Interestingly, this bolt came out much easier than the other one and is not the one I worked on. All I did was remove and re-install the bolt. I had cleaned the threads and brushed on some anti-seize compound before reinstalling and it initially turned smoothly upon re-install. So, do you think I have a broken mount and what's a good way to correct this? Once again, it just keeps spinning inside--in either direction. Any suggestions on getting this bolt out? |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 444
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 10:25 am: | |
>>>On sealing the studs, teflon is really for pipe threads, which are a tapered interferance fit, I would not recomend it for studs.<<
Ahmen...
Teflon tape is a self lubricated compression sealant and stands a very good chance of 'cracking the housing' from the tremendous force created by compressing the additional material between the stud and housing.
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Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 217
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 8:52 am: | |
Thanks again, Paul and Mark. I'll give it another go today.
Mark, have you begun any of your planned engine mods as yet? I'm looking fwd to hearing how they turn out. Take care. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 263
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 1:19 am: | |
Bill,
On my car, when I disassembled it, I found the aluminum block, isn't a block, it's a hollow spacer and was full of fluid. That is probably your problem, you just disturbed it and the juck is coming out. Follow Paul instructions to take it back apart and clean it out.
On sealing the studs, teflon is really for pipe threads, which are a tapered interferance fit, I would not recomend it for studs. Also nothing sticks to teflon, so the sealant you put in probably won't work right either for very long. When it's back apart, I would recomend you re-clean the studs and the holes well, use breake clean to get rid of all the oil, the teflon will need to be scraped out, then re-apply the sealant you chose. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 948
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 8:31 pm: | |
Why wont the puck slip out? If you cant get enough height, undo another mount bolt to release the engine and let it lift higher. Thats what I would do rather than wishing I had an arm with 3 elbows. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 216
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 8:21 pm: | |
Thank you, again, Paul. I just finally got the main frame bolt out and have jacked the engine up as high as i can and I still can't get at that one stud in the northwest corner of the mount. The "puck" part of the mount is super loose and I have the large seat spacer slipped out as well, but I can't get any type of socket or wrench on it ( actually I can get a short socket on it , but a ratchet / extension won't fit ) Very frustrating--aside from that one nut, the whole mount is off the car. Tomorrow I'm going to buy more wrenches to try to finish this up. Hopefully a stubby gear wrench or a very offset wrench will be able to get onto it. I've spent the last2 hrs fooling around with every wrench/ combo I own but not one fits--that damn puck is still in the way. My garage looks like the aftermath of medieval warfare! Any suggestions on the right type of wrench? |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 944
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 7:05 pm: | |
Some of the mounts have a plate sandwiched between the mount bracket and the gearbox case. There is no gasket, its just a spacer. Take it apart again, clean and inspect the stud holes. I cant imagine a crack or anything there, probably just a top stud leaking behind the plate and down. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 215
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 3:11 pm: | |
OK--here's the lastest in my battle w the mounts. I was able to extract 3 out of 4 studs from my worst leaking mount ( the rear driver's side one) w/o actually removing the entire mount .I used teflon tape and thread sealant on all threads and reinstalled . Everything went smoothly and all 3 nuts were tightened very well. Well, this morning I noticed a puddle of oil under the mount and , upon inspecting it, I see oil leaking from the seam between the tranny case and that aluminum block which the studs screw into. I see no oil on the studs or nuts as I originally did. Now, it is coming from that seam--and very steadily. The leak has shifted from the studs to that seam. Should there be a gasket between that block and the tranny case ? Why do you think that the leak shifted in this way ? I plan on doing the whole job over again-- this time removing the entire motor mount and all 4 studs . When I do this, does that aluminum block come off? I f not, how would you suggest I correct this? Thanks again in advance for any further input. By the way, I was initially unable to break loose the main mounting bolt--that's why I did what I could w/o removing it. The leak comes directly under the area which I "repaired". |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 243
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 6:54 pm: | |
518 is an anaerobic product, like thread lock only thick. It stays soft until you assemle it then sets. If you want to remove the stud in the future you would either have to heat it to 260F or work really hard. I use #2 on a lot of things, but it seems to act as a lubricant on threads and I've had a couple things come loose, which is why I started using the 518. If it's been good for 2 years, it's probably fine, it may just be what I was putting it on. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3903
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 6:29 pm: | |
Does the 518 remain pliable for future removal. I haven't tried it but for years I have used no. 2 Permatex on water pump bolts etc and it has always worked well. I did my 308 mount bolts over 2 yrs ago with it and it is not leaking today. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 242
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 6:16 pm: | |
If you do get it apart, I would go with permatex 518. It will seal and retain the studs well. I like #2 as well, but have had better luck with 518 on bolts/studs. There is another product, I don't recall the number, that actually is a thread sealant. It's a red liquid, more like red thread lock (272?). Good luck |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 915
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 5:51 pm: | |
I would leave the two nut/bolts in place while loosing the large bolt. So, large bolt first, two nuts and bolts then you can jack up the gearbox to slide out the mount itself. That will give you a clear shot at the upper bracket mount nuts. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 213
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 8:57 am: | |
Should I remove the 2 smaller bolts on the sides before attempting to unbolt the mount? Does the sequence matter in this case ? Thanks again.
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magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3899
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 9:03 pm: | |
Use a 1/2 inch torque bar on it and apply pressure slowly it will loosen. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 906
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 7:00 pm: | |
You may need an inpact gun to crack it loose. I was able to loosen mine by hand but might have been lucky. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 212
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 6:32 pm: | |
Well, today I attempted to remove the leaking motor mount w/o success. Here's what happened: I first removed the 2 small bolts on each side of the mount, then attempted to loosen the main , vertical bolt which threads into the mount itself. As I turned the bolt, the top half of the mount turned with it to a point where it stopped. At that point, I was unable to loosen the main bolt any further. Everything seemed to flex as I torqued on it, but it wouldn't turn. I then reattached the two small bolts/nuts to see if that would make any difference, but I was unable to loosen the main bolt at all with the smaller bolts in place .Needless to say, I was unable to seal up 2 of the studs because they won't come out with the mount in place ( the top part is in the way). However, I was able to successfully extract the 2 lower studs easily. So, am I doing something wrong here or am I just not applying enough torque/ muscle to the main bolt to get it out ? Given that weird feeling of flex as I applied torque made me wary of breaking something. Is there some way the top part of the mount comes off without removing the main bolt? I was even unable to even get a wrench on one stud nut due to the top half of the mount being directly in the way. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 203
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 6:42 am: | |
Paul, Magoo--thank you ,again. |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3725
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 11:36 pm: | |
Bill, Permatex no. 2 is what I used on the threads to stop the leak. 2 1/2 yrs now and it doesn't leak. Clean out the threaded hole in the block and the bolt with brake kleen before using the Permatex no. 2. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 796
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 9:34 pm: | |
The large bolt through the frame threads into the mount itself, no nut on top or hidden. On my carbed 308, the two nuts and bolts had to come out first, jack the engine and slide the mount out, then remove the mount bracket that is held to the gearbox case. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 202
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 8:18 pm: | |
I'm about to remove 2 of my motor mounts to repair oil leakage from the studs . In removing the mount, do I need to undo the 2 nutted bolts on each side of the mount? Does the large, horizontal main bolt, which holds the mount to the frame , have a nut on it under the "cap" of the mount or does it just thread into the body of the mount? I 'd like to know how to proceed so any input would be appreciated. |