| Author | Message | ||
| Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sorry, out of town on business... Shifting at 7900, power peak was 7750rpm. The Modena Engineering transfer case with (I think) seven different drop gears, was ~$5000 US, beautiful piece. The Michelotto 308 is red (of course) and is the real-deal, not a street steel chassis convert. It's still in Chicago at an authorized dealer last I heard. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3124 Registered: 2-2001 |
That'd be it. He used to use WWoC but I guess had some problems with them and brought it to CC after that. It's a cool car. It should also be under inventory for Ferrari of Central Florida (dealers on ferrarina.com) if anyone wanted to check some pics of it. I'm not sure who brought it down for him to be honest. It was finished and ready for the track off the top of my head like a month or two ago. It's good to hear it's out and running. Very cool 308. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 433 Registered: 3-2001 |
Bret, Is the yellow one a 78 body with a QV FI dry sump engine (NY Plates), I saw it run at Moroso 3 weeks ago and it's for sale ($65,000). I think WWOC brought it down for the owner. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3122 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mark, his flywheel is a really well made piece. We have a 365 exLeMans Ferrari that comes in to be serviced, etc. Before I started working at CC they had swapped it over to a new multi plate clutch system with I think an Aluminum flywheel with a steel insert. It was all apart when I started working there though as the owner had a valve snap. It's a track only car so they were having some problems with the clutch pack locking up with the flywheel because of the heat and tearing out the insert from the aluminum. Because of this I wanted nothing to do with an aluminum inserted flywheel even though they are insanely light and to keep it steel just to avoid the hassles, etc. Nick's flywheel is pretty much as far as I think you could take a steel one. So, I like it a lot. The interesting part is that the clutch pack itself I could swear is the same one used in that 365 (around 5.0L flat 12 making about 500hp @8000). I don't know the pressure plate rates, but they look identical. So, I think it's gonna work real well. Plus, it's light as hell compared to stock. It doesn't have springs obviously in the clutch discs so it'll be a little more chatter prone and might require a touch more attention to engage, but I think it'll be worth it. I'll definitely tell you more when I get it together, and I'm sure you'll get to see it first hand how it works. Hey Rexrcr what color was the Michelotto? We have a yellow one come in that from the looks of it would be making about that hp, and is running straight cuts in the t case (never saw the internals of the rest of the trans). I like Rexrcr's straight cut from one end to the other idea. You gotta admit that would be sweet. I've heard shift problems are gonna occur, so something to keep in mind. That said, I'm like you Mark and will address those problems as they present themselves. I wont be doing a supercharger, etc for at least two years, so I guess I have some time to think about it all. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 222 Registered: 5-2002 |
Mine whines like that too  I was afraid those where to number you'd give me. I hate to say it, but I think I'm going to have to wait until it breaks  | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 432 Registered: 3-2001 |
First of all it whines like I have twin superchargers running at 15,000 rpm's, between that and the modified Borla you don't hear a thing. I found the transfer case on e-bay a couple of years ago and paid just less than $2200 for it. I hear they run a couple of thousand more than that. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 221 Registered: 5-2002 |
Paul,about how much does that set up go for? How about noise? | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 431 Registered: 3-2001 |
Today I started to reassemble my 308 after 5 months in pieces, for the past two years I have run Franks Straight cut, magnesium cased, double bearing transfer case with 3 different quick change gear ratio's; it is my understanding that the weak link was the transfer case and that with this setup 400 (flywheel) HP will be easily tolerated by the drivetrain. I will also be installing Nicks double plate clutch and lightened flywheel (double plate clutch looks like it came off a tank). Tons of other stuff but will post all that elsewhere at a later time | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 220 Registered: 5-2002 |
Rexrcr, what rpm were you shifting at? | ||
| Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2002 |
I prepped and managed a genuine Michelotto 308 converted to road race specification. Normally aspirated we made 330 hp at the flywheel. The stock trans was always a problem, and the real Michelotto trans was a bit of a funky dog design compared to more modern designs of race 'boxes. We solved all our troubles with Modena Engineering's straight cut magnesium housing drop-gears and converted a stock 'box to their straight-cut dog drive internals. Beautiful stuff and the US$ to Australian$ was a bonus. Contact Frank Capo at 61 (39) 782.4420. First big problem is the helical gears walk in the drop gear housing and self-machine holes. Next, shift speed and quality sucked. All fixed with Modena Engineering's stuff. I had them build custom drop gears for the F40 too. Lowered top speed to 176 and improved the acceleration and timing of the shifts at Road America, where we spent a lot of time. Thanks for the dyno info to those who contributed. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 219 Registered: 5-2002 |
The wear question is a tough one. I guess there are 4 ways to go street vs track and boost vs rpm in all combinations. Track, stock redline boosted. The wear rate will be a fuction of hp, up to the point that parts just break at time zero. Track high rpm (assume sam hp as boosted engine) the lfe is a function of hp and rpm squared, so a little increase in rpm shortens the life dramatically. IMO, that explains the death or 308 tranys in the 800 hp cars, they were spining the snot about of then with the boost on top for good meaasure. Street. the street is a whole diffent thing than the track. On the street, most (99.9%) of your time is spent at partail throttle, cursing. It takes about 10 hp to push a car along at 65 mph, so your throttle will be closed until engine out up equalls 10 hp. That's true no matter how much power the engine is capable of. The only time the wear rate is increased is when you are actually exceeding the stock out put, or .1% of the time. The standard is that over the life of a street engine, 90% of all engine wear occurs from start up (oil preasure is zero!). So you shouldn't see any change in engine life, unless you drive it like a race car. you can get away with a lot on the street. Bret, I'm currently using a clutch with a heavy presure plate and kevlar disk, but have be thinking about Nick's multi-disk. Could you let me know what you think of it when you get the car running? | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 493 Registered: 4-2001 |
A Daytona's clutch will fit in a 308 as well.. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3118 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yeah I'm hoping ZF Trans is a public company so I can start investing now. No one seems to have a concrete number on when the trans will fail (obviously a definitive number is impossible to achieve, but a range). With the stock 308 I can't picture the trans being damaged no matter what you do, of course you can make parts wear faster, but I don't think it has enough force to do ultimo destructo. At 800hp which is what they were getting out of some race 308s when they were new (TT setups) they were breaking trans parts like nobody's business, but that was in an all out race car wearing slicks. I think at 600hp you should be alright if you don't go insane with it, doing donuts, burnouts on uneven surfaces, etc. The two points that I would look to improve first would be the t case, maybe a straight cut setup like michelotto's were/are running or like Paul Sloan has. The second would be that the clutch has enough force. I'll be installing Nick Scianna's lighter flywheel with multi plate clutch which is tougher than stock, but the question is if it is tough enough I guess. This is all speculation of course, but I think 600hp would be alright. Mark's running 285s in back if I remember correctly, and I will be running around there also when I get some bucks together so there's definitely some traction, but I don't think enough to break stuff. I think you'd still be breaking lose the rears before snapping parts. Mark has had luck with his setup now which is 305rwhp and he truly does drive it like he stole it. I think if that was too much tire he would be breaking parts already, so as long as you go 600hp with 285s-315s I don't see a problem. This is all speculation though. If I could setup the trans to get 30k out of the bearings, etc and be making that much hp I would be happy with it. I haven't heard anything about people grenading a 308 trans, but I have heard the extra hp wears out trans bearings relatively fast. Bottom line is, if it breaks, fix it. Just my $.02. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 417 Registered: 4-2002 |
What about LONGEVITY? Over here we call it 'owt for nowt' sure you can get rediculous power figures from Turbo's..before the whole shebbang goes bang! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3103 Registered: 2-2001 |
I'm shooting for absolute latest to have everything sorted out by April 12th which is the Classic Coach tech session. It'll just be cool to have it there, not sure if I'm working or not though, possible since there will be a lot of cars in and out. I have everything now to put the engine together sans tec3. I got my pistons done at Wiseco (great guy named Brian Nutter helped me, very cool) and had to do a little tolerance checking. Had to clay the piston, throw on the head, etc. All came out well clearance wise, off the top of my head I'll be running like .070 more clearance to the valves and around .025 more lift. Good clearance between the deck and head too of course, I don't remember off the top of my head what the numbers were. I just have to polish them before they can go back in for good. Reclean a few parts here and there too which have been lingering around the shop for going on a year in January. Norwood knows a hell of a lot about boost obviously. If (or when) I were in your shoes I would check out with them also. Are you running copper gaskets now? It'll be cool to see how different our once similar cars become. It's even cooler that we live close enough to take each other for rides and see first hand. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 214 Registered: 5-2002 |
I heard about the 8 sec vette. That's fast. When is your car due out? Spring? I'd like a ride in that too. It sounds like it's going to be really nice. I actually need to change pistons now, stock CR, but forged. Cast pistons and 20+ psi just makes me nervous. Norwood told me they o-ring there high boost turbos, which sounds like a good idea too. Once I get the new parts fitted, I'll probably pull the engine and take care of that before I run it. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3098 Registered: 2-2001 |
You're absolutely right on that. Boost is an amazing thing, normal everyday car that if you tack it up goes like hell. btw, Lingenfelter just made an 8 second street car (8.95). C5, either LS1 or LS6 bored and stroked to a 427 and twin turboed. Best part, idles nearly as good as a stock Vette and will be happy to putter around under 3000rpm around town all day. If this isn't a testament to boost I don't know what is. For those that don't know, running a 1/4 mile in the 8s is unGodly. The quickest of street cars usually barely make it into the 10s. An F40 (quickest street Ferrari) for instance will probably run high 11s. I'll have to see what kind of numbers and compare it to the ride quality. Then see how much further I want to go. If I want to make it fast enough to beat worked Corvettes, etc. then boost will be the only way to go, and I, like you, lean towards supercharging over turboing. Only thing I would have to change that I'm doing now is go back to stock pistons if I want to run boost, not such a bad deal. All the other stuff will work. I can't wait to see your car now, before it made a big enough impression. One of these days I'm gonna have to try and con you into taking me for a ride. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 212 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bret, From what I've seen of your posts, you're doing everything right, it should make the numbers. There are limits to what can be done in a naturally aspirated engine and still have a good street car, you're probably about there. I do understand the need for more though. If you want more, I think you're talking about boost. This was my first boosted engine and honestly, for the street, I'm never going back. After 20 years of play with cars, I've finally seen the light. It's just a lot easier. I'm replacing the blower now. In theory, the new blower can put the engine to over 800, I'm going to start by asking it for 600. We'll see what happens. the difference between 365,and 800 is an $80 pulley...not a lot of nerve. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3093 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mark, I remember you posting 305rwhp before, it still impresses me when you post it again. Very cool, like 365hp at the crank. I'm optimistically shooting for 350hp at the crank, put around 295rwhp, I don't know if I'm running enough lift and overlap for that though, comp is pretty much as high as can be taken. A lot of things are changing in the engine so I guess I'll have to wait and see. I wont be surprised if I make 320-330hp anything less than that and I'll be somewhat disappointed. I need to get a real good engine building program for my computer. Kind of ridiculous since I don't even have the 308 back together yet, but I'm already starting to think down the line to make some serious HP. | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
New member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2002 |
rule of thumb...about 16 % loss in h.p. from the crank to the rear wheels on 308's and boxers. bob norwood would substantiate my claim as they have done many dyno pulls with all those turbo cars. the rear wheel number is usually pretty depressing! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 373 Registered: 11-2002 |
paul, here you are doing the same thing on this thread, are you going to get all beligerent and start a flame war here also, because you're guessing and someone points it out? this making up stuff appears to be common in your posts, what's the deal? >>>Then Im wrong on the year, I was guessing. The PO replaced the system with a non-cat style, looks stock but the muffler is just a canister with an inlet on each end and 2 outlets on each end. No thermal reactor, Ive seen them before. I dont know what mine is then,<<< | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 211 Registered: 5-2002 |
Back to facts 1984 308QV, 305rwhp on a dynojet. Running a roots blower at 10 psi. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 823 Registered: 12-2001 |
Then Im wrong on the year, I was guessing. The PO replaced the system with a non-cat style, looks stock but the muffler is just a canister with an inlet on each end and 2 outlets on each end. No thermal reactor, Ive seen them before. I dont know what mine is then, could be an anza? I wouldnt know. But it does have the 76-77 outlet spacing which is wider than the 79 which is what my car is. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 445 Registered: 5-2001 |
That stock muffler is really heavy. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 483 Registered: 4-2001 |
76-77 non-cat means it has the thermoreactor inside the muffler, the precurser to the cat. My 308 is a 77.... trust me, you will see a performance gain from the weight savings alone. That damn thing weights a ton. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 818 Registered: 12-2001 |
I agree David, but how restrictive is the stock muffler? Mine is a 76-77 US non cat exhaust and its loud inside. If I spent $3k on a tubi, it would be louder for sure, it would look nicer but I doubt I would see more than a 1hp gain and maybe as rob put it, a loss in torque. Hard to say but not worth the cost considering the value of a 308. Perhaps on a 360 or a TR. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2948 Registered: 12-2000 |
Although a little back pressure is good and helps your torque, which most of the time is better than HP. All those imports with coffee cans are sometimes hurting performance over helping it. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 479 Registered: 4-2001 |
I put a Tubi on my 308 when I got it because the last owner had let the muffler go to ••••... Why a Tubi and not a stock muffler? Because it is a well known fact that a free flowing exhaust system will produce better results that a constrictive exhaust system. Which do you think would flow better... A potato in the exhaust half a potato in the exhaust or no potato in the exhaust? Basic principles of intake and exhaust flow work all across the board, whether it's a 122ci pinto engine or a 3.0liter Ferrari. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 939 Registered: 1-2001 |
I wish he's tried it without a filter, see if that was also the same 10hp gain. -Ben | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 813 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ill give my opinion without data on a tubi. You will see a gain in noise but not a gain in power to justify the cost of a pretty muffler. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 442 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob- Just a K&N gave you 10hp? That's a big difference. I have one on my 308 but I thought the hp increase was minimal if any. I am glad to see that. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 937 Registered: 1-2001 |
here are some: http://ferrarichat.com/events/dyno2002/ there is another thread on the seattle dyno day, do a search for it, should come up with a few more interesting cars. -Ben | ||
| Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2002 |
Who here has dyno data from a Dynojet or other chassis dyno? Willing to post the results and include relevant data such as modifications before and after. I'd really like to see pre/post Tubi or other exhaust and intake modifications. I had a professor with the motto "Without the data, it's just an opinion." |