| Author |
Message |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 279
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 8:33 pm: | |
Billy Bob - "James S - wire is NOT wire. There is technology in making a harness. To touch on the subject there are issues with strand number and wire ductility for vibration resistence. There is connecotr sealing with hard and soft potting. There is pin crimp issues. There are issues with wire cladding and heat. There are issues with wire mounting and securing. I could go on for a longtime."
I concur. Please note that my comment was related to the copper running through the harness. I agree that connectors are the culprit. I differ with respect to "strands" and "ductility", as I have faith that Italian and German engineers accounted for gauge and radius when specifying the wire type. To replace the harness with another manufacturer's wire would dictate that someone redraw a schematic with proper color coding - a task that few are willing to assume.
Jim S. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 102
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 8:26 pm: | |
Rex,
Actually in the dreaded 348 the connectors are Bosch made by a vender who i can't remember but they are a bosch owned company. The 55pin as you say can only be mass purchased. Really stupid. You can get the part of the connector from Hal Rogers but he can't get the bosch pins. I don't think the Porshe guys have the 2 and 3 and 4 and 7 pin etc. bosch connectors. They can get the AMP connectors which are also used on the car. The cam sesnor connecotr is actually a Ford connector if I remember correctly. The ichelloto ECU is a Bosch ECU but is far from a Ferrari one. Part of the reason Bosch will give no data on the ECU's is that they are very OEM programable. They are just as programable as a Motec but are locked out to us for legal emmission reasons mandated by the smog police. I'm not even sure if the MIch ECU's are even 2.7 motronics. Land Shark on FC can tell you more about chip programing and how difficult it is without the right tools and how few tuners have the right tools or the right knowledge. Few chips are little more than bad copies of the OEM's. They only way to reprogam a chip is to program one with all the engine mods you want. Only then can you maximize. Chip makers don't do this they try to overoptimaize the OEM car that is mot modifidied. And yes to the other poster you can have a hotrod and emmissions map but what Rex is saying is if you make a hotrod with hot cam/compression etc... you will not be able to make that clean. There are limits. And if you don't go to those limits then why spend the Motec money? Its like picking up pennies and dropping dollars. and to James S "wire is NOT wire". There is technology in making a harness. To touch on the subject there are issues with strand number and wire ductility for vibration resistence. There is connecotr sealing with hard and soft potting. There is pin crimp issues. There are issues with wire cladding and heat. There are issues with wire mounting and securing. I could go on for a longtime. If Ferrari did it right it would be like the Ford takeover of jaguar. the new Jags are awsome and have not lost the flavor of their roots. When a DIY'er can wire a Ferrari better than Ferrari is is no longer acceptable to say..."It's a Ferrari"... when it won't start. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 276
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 5:17 pm: | |
Craig Dewey has it right. Stay with your original harness. Wire is wire, and contrary to Paul N's suggestion, which is out of character in its inaccuracy, Italian electrical engineers, as well as German EEs, know what gauge is necessary for what current. A continuous strand of copper, as exists in the multitude of wires in your harness, does not deteriorate. It is the connection to the load (lamp, motor, ignition box, etc,), fuse, or relay, that deteriorates with time, and that deterioration is in the form of higher contact resistance.
If time were to be well spent, it would be in cutting, resplicing, and recrimping connectors. This, however, is only half the job, as abrasive cleaning (fine sandpaper) of the contacts on relays and loads is also necessary. Your are looking at a Herculean task, which would require a great deal of patience, which, by the way, seems to be lacking in a number of FerrariChat members as illustrated by some of the less than courteous threads. It will be the ultimate labor of love, for when finished, the car will not run better, the radio will not sound better, the lights will not shine brighter, and like the extra cream and extra sugar buttons on the old liquid coffee machines, your coffee will not taste better for the extra time/money spent (there are no wires on the back of those extra cream, extra sugar buttons - the customer merely feels better pressing it, thinking they got more sugar and cream).
Thursday is my cynical day.
(One caveat - if your contact resistance is high, your lights may shine brighter. I do not want to be inaccurate).
Jim S. |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 41
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 3:30 pm: | |
"Yes, one can get the aftermarket system to pass sniffer and rolling road emission tests, though you'll need a map that matches the stock Bosch..." |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member
Username: Peter
Post Number: 2284
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 2:45 pm: | |
I don't see why it PHYSICALLY can't pass smog. Since the unit is programmable, why not just punch in all of the stock numbers (ignition timing, fuel mixture levels, etc...) for test day? When you're done testing, punch in all of your optimum numbers. The way I see it CAN'T pass testing, is if they do a visual inspection of the engine bay (but I'm sure they're ignorant enough not to recognise the aftermarket computer and wiring harness - if its neatly installed and cleverly disguised). |
Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member
Username: Ernie
Post Number: 468
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 11:21 am: | |
Awe yes.......... this is why I love this site. Rex thanks a bunch, it is so great to see that someone here has already done the nightmare work I'm trying to do. The power figure that you stated from Michelotto, 400hp N/A, is what I would like to get the car to put out. The tricky thing is, can it still pass the California Smog, and still put those numbers out? As far as rewiring it, I'll take your word for it and just caugh up the money and get the factory wiring harness. My fear is that the supid thing will just go bad again in a few years. But I will go that route. Thanks again Rex. |
Rexrcr (Rexrcr)
New member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 10:52 am: | |
Gentlemen:
This is an area I have literally spent months, years, studying, repairing, modifying. So, My 2 cents, FWIW:
Connectors:
Easiest availability is indeed Porsche dealers, they all seam to stock the pins, tools, etc. Ferrari sells the pin removal tool cheap, nice tool, too. The connector manufacturer is AMP, catalogs and order lines available. The part number molded into the connector your holding in your hand from a 348 is a AMP part number and probably is still valid. Once you have figured out which line of their products Bosch is using, ordering the common connectors, pins and installation and repair tools is easy. The ECU connectors (55 pin), bare, are a different story. You must purchase those in large quantity, not just one. It is cheaper to buy a breakout box from Ferrari and hack it apart to get the connector to the ECU.
If you're not concerned with compatibility and simply looking for a source, try Waytek, Inc. 800-328-2724, www.waytekwire.com. Great line of high quality Packard Weather pack, reasonably priced weather sealed automotive connectors, pins, relays, wire.
ECU's:
If it's a street car with a major wiring problem, nothing repairs it quicker than investing in the factory wire schematic, breakout box, oscilloscope, multimeter, colored pencils to mark the schematic, coffee, time, and plenty of rest between sessions wrestling with the car. I personally performed exorcisms on a new F50 with intermittent one bank shut-off, and a 512 TR with morning sickness that lasted one second, but not every day. Even with FNA assistance, it still took great effort, but finally properly and permanently repaired.
The OEM Bosch ECU is very sophisticated and capable of anything short of big boost control, for that you need the Motec, Autronic, EFI Systems, or similar quick processor. Custom wiring an engine and integrating with the Bosch to retain climate control will easily take 60++ hours if one has done it once before. At $65/hour that's $3900. Never done that car before you're looking at $8000 in labor. It's very difficult to quote a large project like that.
Yes, one can get the aftermarket system to pass sniffer and rolling road emission tests, though you'll need a map that matches the stock Bosch, so, unless you turbo, what's the point?
Race car, very similar, though less expensive. If you stay normally aspirated, the Bosch is still best bang for the buck. I have experience with a Michelotto hot rodded 348, normally aspirated, big power (400hp), still retains Bosch. Call Michelotto, ask for Luigi Dindo, 39.49.871.3811, they've done this many times. You'll pay, but it will be world-class quality. Try Ted Wentz, too, 516-467-9040.
Programming high quality aftermarket ECU's is much easier than you think, they all have self-learning capabilities, so you're close within minutes. Then go tweak on the road and chassis dyno, though remember the dyno will tell you leaner than the real world needs.
Yes, the pin connector problems can be like finding a needle in a haystack, but if these cars were 100% reliable, I guess you'd call them a Honda. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 98
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 2:27 am: | |
This is exactly what I mean. The only instruction you can count on from Motec is the manual they give with the uits. You may be lucky when you need tech advice and get it or you may get the "crack head". Motecs will not pass Ca. smog but they will pass the Ca. sniffer test and you can hide all the evidence of the retrofit. Ca. will never know because even the Ca. Bar refs do not open and inspect the componants like ECU's. Motec is the "best" if you can get it to work right. The rechip on the 348 ecu's forget it. Not worth the money. The best you can do is go to the 348 spyder EcU's as Ferari made these hotter. All the Challenge guys ran these. You can actually feel the difference in these especially with beter exhausts. I happen to have an extra new set by the way. How I ended up with 3 sets of ECU's well that's another story... |
Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member
Username: Ernie
Post Number: 466
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 11:51 pm: | |
Billy,
On Monday I talked to a MoTeC dealer and they told me that 1)all of the MoTeC installations they have done on Ferrari's where for track cars, and 2)that my car wouldn't pass California emissions with the MoTeC. I explianed to them that I wanted a better computer in the car and that I wanted to keep it on the street. Then said that the best thing to do is get the computer chip reprogramed or buy one that is already done. As far as the wiring these dudes were on CRACK! The dude I talked to said that the MoTeC installations that they have done with rewiring were in the engine bay only and that they costed from, get this $10,000-$12,000. See this is what I HAAAAAATE!!!!!!!! Why is it that people alway try to rip you off, just because you tell them that you have a Ferrari. This is why I want to do it my self. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 95
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 11:09 am: | |
Ernie,
I have not done the wiring yet but always threaten to do it when I trace a problem and it is the wiring. AS for Motec I have considered that too. As I race my car more and more it becomes a bigger consideration. However, I am not convinced I can program Ferrari driveablity with my laptop computer when Ferrari spend lots of time on a testtrack to do this job. I do not think it is as easy as programing the o2 sensors to read stochiometric to get the car to run right. I'm very interested however and if I did Motec it would be nice to have a buddy to do it with...hint hint. As to originality Paul you are correct. but I never buy a car for someone else. I buy it for me. To that end I have every scrap of un-necessary insulation etc. out of my car. There is no A/c heater etc... I have one challenge seat in the car and the challenge rollcage. This car feels really fast. If people want the 355 at half the price get a 348 and stip out the 300lbs of crap and your power to weight jumps up nicely. For basically no cost add in a little WATER injection and you can have a bit more power like on cool days. For no cost again run straigh pipes an small resonators out from the cats or no cats. See what you guys get then.... This is all bolt on bolt off stuff. Nothing permenant. Lets start a new thread...348 go fast tips. |
Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member
Username: Ernie
Post Number: 461
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 9:38 pm: | |
Bill what did you spend on the replacement wire?
As far as Bosch, I really wanna get away from the stuff the factory used. I'm seriously thinking of spending the money on a MoTec for the engine managment system. As far as the heater and air conditioning computer, there has to be something else that can run the system or can the MoTec do that as well? I bought the car to keep it, so I'm not worried about keeping every thing "factory", I just don't wanna have to keep spending the money over, and over, and over on the same part. I want to spend the money once to get stuff that will not break. Honestly for what these cars cost you would think that they would be the most reliable cars on the road. |
Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member
Username: Craigfl
Post Number: 502
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 5:11 pm: | |
I can understand the frustration of a car that is not wired neatly but that would be minimal compared to one that has wiring untraceable because the color code/wire size doesn't match the wiring diagram. Even if you use wire markers, they won't be marked in the middle right where you need to poke your test lead in to measure something.
I would think it would be better to stay with the original wiring and repair it with new connectors and maybe better tywrappings. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 866
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 3:48 pm: | |
Re-wiring a ferrari, particularly a 308 would be the best thing you could do for it. The wire gauge they used is too small not to mention the crappy way they designed all of it. Oh and the fuse boxes we all love could get tossed too. One question though, if you were buying a used ferrari, would you buy it if someone replaced all the wiring and said it was better then original? |
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 387
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 2:36 pm: | |
BillyBob, you might be able to buy the M&F pin connectors from your local Porsche Dealer in quantity, as porcshe had some sensor updates that require new Pconnectors/plugs |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 3134
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 2:16 pm: | |
I've also found it to be somewhat, for lack of a better word, shitty. I'm seriously convinced that Ferrari made the spaghetti bowl electric systems so that no one other than dealerships could work on them, or at least would want to. I'm also convinced that at least half of the wires on the fusebox indeed go no further than the firewall, they're just well put together decoys. That said, the next winter I'm gonna rewire a different fusebox in, something normal, something american. You can pick up all different ones cheap at the junkyard and local parts stores. The relays are supposed to be near bullet proof so I'm gonna leave that system how it is, but rewiring it wouldn't hurt. I think a lot of the problems come from the box itself, there are a lot of bad contacts IMO. I hate wiring stuff too, which is why I've been avoiding it as much as possible. I removed a PO's alarm system during this mod thing, while it's all apart. God only knows if the rewiring will work. In theory it should, but me saying that obviously implies that it wont. |
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member
Username: Fatbillybob
Post Number: 94
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 9:51 am: | |
I have been wanting to do this for years. ALL Ferrari wiring is bad. The 348 rats nest is worse. The problems I have not overcome are (which stop me from starting) 1) I don't understand a lot of electronics. 2) lots of the wires go to and from the shitty F fuse box in the passenger footwell. How do you get around that? It is not like the easy ones in the QV mondial. The best way would be to dump all the relays and I think there is a solid state way to handle the switching with transistors right? 3) Ferraris get hot you need to cool the engine bay with some puller fans. I am convinced that the connectors here would work better if the underhood temps were better. Nothing cracks and crinkles like a hot Ferrari. My GM cars never make that kind of music when hot. 4) MOST IMPORTANT...WHERE CAN YOU GET THE 2 3 4 7 8 PIN BOSCH CONNECTORS THAT GO TO THE SENSORS? 5) Who knows where the weak link is? If you do a rewire that is fine but you really need a set of new connectors with the pins so you can "hard pot" the connectors that plug into stuff like the HVAC box. 6) So of these connectors to the appliances are really crappy. So what do you do? My thoughts are to maybe a)contact keep and stablant-22 the connector to applaince and b)epoxy and wrap the connector permenantly to the applaiance c)make a new connector connection with GM weatherpak connectors. 7) I tried to order a Bosch 55pin connecotr for the ECU so I could rewire and hard pot. What I got was the connector body but Bosch would not sell me the pins!!!!! BOSCH IS VERY UNHEALPFUL. If somone has a Bosch contact then maybe you could do something. Until then everything you do is suspect due to the Bosch connector to appliance interface which is hard if not impossible to improve. If you do a rewire and are able to overcome these issues I'll work along with you and do mine too. Hey we can all have a 348 rewire party. |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 206
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 9:17 am: | |
Ernie--Ionce had a Jag XJS refitted w a small-block Chevy engine and every electrical add- on imaginable. I ran into the same thing upon removing the console. I knew nothing about electronics and wasn't about to pay someone by the hour so I tacked it myself--one wire or component at a time and it worked out fine. Be sure to disconnect the battery and, as a precaution, test out every system each time you replace a wire. Even if you can't find the proper connectors, just carefully slice new and better wire into the circuit. When I got done with my job, I had a garbage bag full of extra wire left over! Best of luck. |
Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member
Username: Ernie
Post Number: 459
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 6:55 am: | |
Has anyone had thier car rewired, or better yet done it them self? I ask this because the wiring in my 348 is just sick. I took appart the center console, because the heater control wasn't working, and what a rats nest. What does it cost to get a good rewire job done, and NOT at a dealer. I want the wiring better than the crap the factory installed in the car.
If it possible to find the connectors at a local eletronic store, like GreyBar, I'm willing to take the task on my self. I have done some serious wiring before, not on cars but at a previous employer. I helped in the construction of the master control room at the television station where I was a supervisor. So if I can wire a control room for a TV station, I must have pulled miles of cable, this thing souldn't be that hard, just time consuming.
So if anyone has done it, or have had it done, what did it cost and what do you recomend? Thanks |
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