| Author | Message | ||||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 434 Registered: 4-2002 |
Cryogenic tempering is only applicable to certain metals depending on their chemical constituency. It is of no benefit to others. It is beneficial to some cast iron, but not to all cast iron depending on the make up of the cast iron. As for steels, there are hundreds of types of steel. Some benefit from the process; some do not. There is no simple and concise answer. This is what I have gathered from my metallurgist colleagues. | ||||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 425 Registered: 11-2002 |
Did anyone find information regarding whether or not F1 & other forms of racing have adopted cryogenic tempering of engines as SOP? | ||||
| DJ (Godfather)
New member Username: Godfather Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2002 |
From what i've heard its not too costly at all. Its a lot cheaper than one would think it would be. | ||||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 278 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ric - Good post. All of your points make sense. Out of curiosity, how costly is cryogenic tempering? Jim S. | ||||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 324 Registered: 2-2002 |
I don't accept the argument that just because manufacturers don't do something, doesn't mean it has no merit or benefit. By and large, manufacturers aren't truly interested in longevity, but rather, profit. I believe that some "on-the-edge" technology eventually gets to production, but, alas, much does not. Mass production cars are a fine balance of durability, conformance and production cost. Even Ferrari limits the cost-is-no-object mentality to the supercars. Some costs have to be kept under control, else why doesn't every model come with carbon-fiber brakes, and not just the Enzo? A forged crankshaft is vastly superior to cast cranks, but other than Ferrari and Lambo, very few manufacturers use them. Cost is the only factor. Independent suspension is still not on the majority of production vehicles. Stainless valves, multivalve designs are more examples. Something that doesn't cost much, at least in material cost, is porting and polishing. Yet, only a few cars have this process done, and it's benifits aren't really questionable. If cryo treating does improve the product, it may only show up in high-end cars, due to the cost and or complexity of the process, or never at all. The one example I'm familiar with, might not ever come to pass in production cars. My brake rotors on my non-Ferraris will probably last at least 100K miles, if not more. Why would a manufacturer take steps to make them last longer when they already outlast the warranty by 100%? OTOH, a friend of mine only is on his fourth set of rotors on his 360 with only 24K miles. I'm on my 4th set of rotors on my 348 at 40K miles. It's not that the rotors are that poor compared to my other cars, but both cars have each seen well over 2000 hard track miles. Components that are used in this way would probably benefit from such a process, if it truly does work. I'm not sure many street-only cars would ever really realize the cost benefit. Respectfully submitted. | ||||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 277 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ric - change comes very slowly in the automotive industry. Imagine producing 300,000 units of a particular Chevy model based on a new crankshaft design. A flaw in materials, design, or production could be very expensive. I suspect that each new model is only incrementally different from its predecessor; slight improvement based on small numbers of failures that are carefully analyzed. If there is one area of technology that is most evident in modern automobile production, it is metallurgy. Lexus engines that run without a tune-up for 100,000 miles, rings and cranks and pistons and valves that last forever. It really is remarkable. My comments vis-a-vis cryogenic tempering merely reflect a respect for this metallurgical expertise. If it really led to improved durability, performance, overall cost of ownership, etc., I would have to believe that the major manufacturers would have incorporated it. However, by my own premise, it may be in the wings, soon to be released after several years of testing. Time will tell. Jim S. | ||||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 408 Registered: 11-2002 |
The simple question (hopefully) is, Is this process being used in F1 engines? Anyone? | ||||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 323 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ferrari crankshaft journals are nitrided by the factory, and this significantly reduces journal wear. It is also the reason that if you take the journals down > 0.030", you must repeat the process. Sudden temp changes are defintely bad, but the cryo process that I'm familiar with reduces the temperatures over a period of several hours and returns them to ambient at a similar rate. I've read two white papers on the subject, and it sounds reasonable to me. Proper engineering or scientific test results for almost anything in the automotive industry, especially racing, is a tough thing to demand. Most of it is closely held, or simply never done. | ||||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 277 Registered: 6-2002 |
JRV - I have seen attempts to harden crankshaft journals (nickel chromium - following machining) to lead to disaster. I have no experience with cryogenic tempering. If sudden heating and cooling of a metal is purported to "strengthen" the surface, might it not lead to surface stress that ultimately results in failure? I did study metallurgy, and quenching superheated metal has advantages and consequences, most of which I do not remember. I do remember that the process affects surface molecular behavior. Ric - I do not doubt your friend's perception, for that is his/her reality. I can't tell you how many patients believe that a modality works for them, but when subjected to the scrutiny of clinical trials with blinded protocol, it simply does not prove to be beneficial. Your friend's experience with rotors lasting twice as long, with everything else unchanged (pads) does not eliminate affects of competition, place at start, finish, how hard he charged, how he may have eased off with a lead, similar tracks, etc. (If the elephant parable upset you - please accept my apology. Simply a ben trovato.) I tend to trust manufacturers of automobiles that have substantial economic liability related to material failure. Their engineers, and their available resources, it would seem, aim to make as reliable a car as possible. Balance this against "smaller" operations that wish to earn a living by cryogenic tempering, and I do not know whether appropriate research and experimentation has been performed. My thoughts, and my conservative approach to engineering. Jim S. | ||||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 321 Registered: 2-2002 |
RE: "...There is not an elephant within 500 miles of here," his friend exclaimed. "See, it works." That a huge leap from my "example". Again, I have NO firsthand experience on this. BUT, someone I know has been racing bikes for quite a while (>15 years). He was resolved to using up X number of rotors per racing season, until he started the cryro stuff. He still uses the same type of pads but now claims that he's getting at least twice the life out of the rotors, and usually more. No, it's not scientific, but a far cry from the "elephant" scenario.  | ||||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 410 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Finally - those that comment about "...won't do any harm..." - I'm not so sure. If you play with the structure of materials, funny things can happen. <<< OK..you got my curiosity going. Sure I can think of some 'funny things', but go ahead and post your feeling, thoughts, hunches on the downsides issue if you don't mind. | ||||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 276 Registered: 6-2002 |
David Handa - your healthy skepticism is exactly the value that FerrariChat should bring. While reading this thread, I'm asking myself "what is Cyrogenic tempering?" Input from those engineers amongst us that have taken courses in metallurgy is important, and should help separate fact from fiction. Those who have seen longer wear on brake rotors treated with this process may be subject to the old "Salt over the shoulder phenomena." (When he asked his neighbor why he sprinkles salt over his shoulder on the front lawn every morning, the neighbor replied, "It keeps the elephants away." "There is not an elephant within 500 miles of here," his friend exclaimed. "See, it works.") Us skeptics need data - and not just any kind of data, but double blinded data. This should not deter anyone from seeking this treatment, merely engineering/scientific curiosity. Finally - those that comment about "...won't do any harm..." - I'm not so sure. If you play with the structure of materials, funny things can happen. Jim S. | ||||
| Jeff 77 GTB (Jbk)
Junior Member Username: Jbk Post Number: 104 Registered: 4-2001 |
Here it is if you're interested. Sorry for the low resolution. email me for a better copy.
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| joe (Joegazzani)
New member Username: Joegazzani Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2002 |
New here. I have a 1991 348 that I have taken to Sears point a number of times. An engine rebuild cost isn't a concern to me, but is this treatment going to reduce wear only or can it strengthen the parts as well. I would consider it, if it's worth it. | ||||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 426 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>In the auto arena, i'd think that blueprinting/balancing/porting, etc. would make a MUCH more of a difference. <<< This is my feelings also. I can't see the harm and there may be benifits?...but unless some definative improvents can be shown...it's hard to justify loading more expense on engines that by and large last indefinately in the first place. The 'average' age of a Street Ferrari Engine that needs a rebuild is 20 years, with many lasting longer. And even at that in the majority of Ferrari engines I've done the botton end was esentially ok, it was the top end that was worn out or broke and caused collateral damage neccesitating the overhaul.. Race engines...a little different story as every little bit helps and generally expensense is not the major concern. It should be very interesting reading these other reports coming along. | ||||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
New member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2002 |
Using cryo treatment on brass musical instruments has generated lots of discussion, usually into one of two camps: 1) works great 2) doesn't do a damn thing. I'm an amateur/semi-pro part time musician (sax/clarinet/flute), and the gist of this as I read it is that molecular changes(if any) are so insignificant in the overall result compared to other variables that it's pretty much a nit overall. Been a fair amount of discussion of cryo on some forums i monitor, and in spite of alleged 'improvements', there hasn't been enuf scientific quality testing to verify whether other variables were affected that might account for these changes. My opinion falls into the "doesn't do a damn thing" camp, but, having never had an instrument cryo-d, i can't say for sure. On the other hand, i'm in no hurry to try it... In the auto arena, i'd think that blueprinting/balancing/porting, etc. would make a MUCH more of a difference. What's next, freeze drying spark plugs ? | ||||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 342 Registered: 5-2001 |
Interesting Jeff, see my friend is very active in research and has many published papers, and he too seems to think much of the cryo industry is out there on the fringe (though the process may not be, the industry makes some pretty wild claims)...and your other point is one he brought up, once the final heat treatment process is done on a something like a brake rotor, subsequent cryo treatment would seem to be of minimal advantage. The cryo treatment really needs to be done during the manufacturing process...not post. | ||||
| Jeff 77 GTB (Jbk)
Junior Member Username: Jbk Post Number: 103 Registered: 4-2001 |
I just read an article on it in this months issue of Heat Treating Progress. Apparently it can be used effectively on things like tool steels, etc.. The process affects the martensite transformation in the crystal matrix, which toughens the metal. But it has to be done prior to the final tempering step. That said, the phd metallurgist at our company is still skeptical and thinks it's mostly marketing hype. I'll post the article tomorrow after I get back from the office. | ||||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 341 Registered: 5-2001 |
Right Steve, Wasn't trying to kill the messenger... :-) But looking forward to someone offering some further studies or tests...Like I said, maybe we are at the "K&N" of things...and I use those...I want to believe... :-) | ||||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Junior Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 102 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ha Ha guy's!! I just thought it was funny,talking about lasting longer, making things harder, treating rods.(teehee he said rod) | ||||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 885 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hans, this leads me to the next question...do they make a container small enough to actually do the procedure? | ||||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1244 Registered: 1-2001 |
Easy Dave -- I didn't say that link proves or disproves anything, I just passed it on since it tried to explain cryo-treatment from a metallurgical viewpoint of affecting the Fe-C solid solution and had some references that might lead you to other information. It's too bad the micrographs aren't higher quality images, but if the Fe-C microstructure can be shown to be different before/after cryo-treatment that would be the first step towards showing it actually has some effect (whether or not the end use after cryo-treatment is "improved" would still be another issue). | ||||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 686 Registered: 4-2002 |
It would be so small, Tom wouldn't have to worry. | ||||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 884 Registered: 12-2001 |
Go ahead Tom, just dont bump into anything with it. | ||||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 850 Registered: 6-2001 |
dj: My mechanic, Ken Augustine, really believes in this treatment. He has done mostly motorcycles but he swears by this treatment. I've seen him use this on pistons, and other motor components and he swears by this. Art | ||||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 271 Registered: 4-2002 |
I have seen the anecdotal information put out by the cryo companies. Cryo treatment works like stress relieving. When the item gets licquid nitrogen cold, any stresses present in the material grow large enough to deform the surrounding material. When warmed back to room temperature, the internal stress levels are much reduced. Similar to anealing of glass. I can see this process leading to (ever so slightly) stronger materials, with a crystaline structure of a quenched metal but with the stress levels of an anealed structure. This may be useful in certain applications. Whether tha applications this is good for and the applications the cryo companies are proporting is unclear from the supplied data. | ||||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 339 Registered: 5-2001 |
Okay, thanks Steve, my buddy says that the cryoing process can work in theory, what is in question, is two things: 1)How does this benefit "finished" products like brake rotors. He says cryoing could help if it was used during the processing/manufacturing step, but "finished" brake rotors have already been heat treated...What further benefit is there after the fact. 2) Where are the true "double blind" tests and such to support the claims...most evidence presented is purely anectdotal, using "self-reporting" by the end user....hardly scientific... Are we back to the K&N claims? :-) | ||||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1243 Registered: 1-2001 |
Kurt K./Dave H. -- here's a link to start with: http://www.carbotecheng.com/cryostudy2.html | ||||
| Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
Junior Member Username: Kurtk328 Post Number: 168 Registered: 3-2001 |
Somebody pls describe this cryo process. | ||||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 338 Registered: 5-2001 |
Has anyone ever seen a true scientific study to explain the cryo process? I have a close friend who has his PHD from MIT in materials science, and he has not been able to find any scientific papers to support the claims(he has asked for documents from the cryo companies, but he states that none of their papers would hold up to academic scrutiny), only anecdotal evidence...such as the folks on this list who have experienced longer rotor life. I'm not saying they haven't, but I'd like to see the studies that show how this works, beyond the hype on the websites.... | ||||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 685 Registered: 4-2002 |
The problem, Tom, is that the process will shrink items. | ||||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Junior Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 100 Registered: 9-2002 |
i was thinking of cryogenically treating my shlong,maybe it will help me last longer. | ||||
| Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
Junior Member Username: Nuvolari Post Number: 57 Registered: 9-2002 |
Cryogenic treating of components works fantastically well for anything that has a wear component to it. I have tested brake rotors with it and it has almost doubled the life of the rotors on the race track with no change to performance. I highly recommend it. | ||||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 429 Registered: 4-2002 |
I used cryogenically treated rotors on my track car (Porsche). They are definitely wearing better using the same pads. I plan on having the next set treated the same way. | ||||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 683 Registered: 4-2002 |
There is a cryogenic place here in Oregon that does a big business in motorcycle engines. No, they aren't promoting that, it's just that many of their customers are bike racers. Apparently parts will slightly change dimension, so some trial and error is needed. e.g. - if a piston is returned smaller, then larger pistons would have to be used initially, etc. The company claims that metal parts become slightly denser, and the process relieves stress. I'm thinking about undergoing the process for just that reason. No, not to become denser. Musicians claim it improves brass instruments. (Hope they let them warm up before putting their lips on them. Yowza!) Ladies claim panty hose thus treated are damned near indestructable. And...my claim to cryogenic expertise.... I'm quite sure that treated golf balls *do* go farther. Or maybe when I see a frozen ball, I swing harder. ???? | ||||
| DJ (Godfather)
Junior Member Username: Godfather Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thats very expensive..the place i contacted can do all those parts for around $500. I have the info at my office, i'll give it to you Monday. | ||||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 395 Registered: 11-2002 |
If it's that inexpensive it sounds worth it. I was quoted recently $3.5K-$4K for all the basic parts. Block, crank, cams etc. | ||||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 311 Registered: 2-2002 |
I could see it increasing the life of cams, followers, perhaps the crank, wrist pins and maybe even extend the life of the liners. I really have nothing to base this on, so it's just conjecture based on a working knowledge of metallurgy mixed with some positive things I've heard about the process. Seems to me it wasn't that expensive. This friend said they'd treat as much as you could get in a medium-sized container for a couple of hundred bucks. | ||||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 393 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ok sure, I could be sold on the roller bearings. And the brakes have been around for awhile and seen to have proved out. Back in the days, Group 44 Jaguar would only use used engine blocks to build their IMSA engines because they wanted hardened, stressed, seasoned blocks for their motors. I believe it works, but is it cost effective? as an additional expense above and beyond the careful rebuilding cost? | ||||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 307 Registered: 2-2002 |
I know a guy that seriously into racing bikes (you know those 135 HP crotch rockets). IMHO, he's a future organ donor, but thats another story. He cryo treats his brake rotors, and swears they last over twice as long, if not more. My next set of rotors for the 348 will go this way, so I'll post the eventual results when I do. He's also told me of others that have achieved extended bearing life on various roller bearings. | ||||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 392 Registered: 11-2002 |
I haven't promoted it because, for the money it costs I just couldn't see the advantages it would bring vs spending the same money building a custom hand massaged & coated engine. I'd like to hear other opinions on this, myself. | ||||
| DJ (Godfather)
Junior Member Username: Godfather Post Number: 159 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm about to built a motor on my non Ferrari sports car. I'm curious if anyone has had any experience or know if I treat my pistons, rods, etc. it will improve the durability of the engine. Thanks in advance. |
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