| Author | Message | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1271 Registered: 1-2001 |
Steve -- No additional info on my end other than that neither the '78 SPC nor the cross-section of the small bearing WP in the '75 308GT4 WSM show the extra parts you mention between the pulley and the outboard bearing's inner race. My guesses would be either: 1. someone was trying to "shim" the WP pulley slightly in your case to improve its alignment with the other pulleys in the system and those extra washers were of the desired thickness, or 2. the outer bearing was replaced by a slightly narrower width bearing (but with the correct ID and OD) and the washers were used to make up the thickness difference. (but these are just WAGs) | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Junior Member Username: Steve Post Number: 246 Registered: 2-2001 |
Steve a question here on your cross sections of the WP. I assume that that these pictures are of the later design pumps because my pully is completely different. It has twin groves for the airpump. Also when I removed the pulley there was a spring washer and a flat washer that loaded the inner race of the 1st bearing. I don't see this in the diagram nor do I see it in the parts manual. Have you come accross this before? Also folks I just want to mention that doing this job using my Eagle lift was GREAT. No bending over and no laying on my back. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 465 Registered: 5-2001 |
308 WATER PUMP, BEARING & SEAL PART #S OVER THE YEARS ----------------------------------------------------- The best I can pin the large bearing pump cut-in down is that it occurred somewhere between July '78 and November '81. Here's everything I've got: 308 GTB/GTS FSB U.S. Version 1978 --------------------------------- Table 21 Date: LUGLIO 1978 has: 107128 Corpo pompa acqua complete - Pump 100433 Anello di tenuta - Seal 103877 Cuscinetto a tenuta - Bearings 308 GTBi/GTSi FSB U.S. Version 1981/1982 Models ----------------------------------------------- Table 20 Date: November 1981 116173 Pompa acqua completa (parts ant.) Water pump complete (front) 100433 Anello di tenuta Sealing ring In alternative n. 114410 Option n. 114410 116159 Cuscinetto a tenuta Bearing 308 QV FSB SB 17-3 2-15-84 -------------------------- 121255 water pump - front assembly 120948 Anello di tenuta Sealing ring ??? Cuscinetto a tenuta Bearing (presumably 116159) 328 GTB/GTS FSB 2nd Edition Cat. 462/87 --------------------------------------- Table 22 Date: MARZO 1987 12155 Pompa acqua completa (parts ant.) Water pump complete (front) 120948 Anello di tenuta Sealing ring 116159 Cuscinetto a tenuta Bearing According to the 308 GTB Register TechTip #6 there were 2 additional varients: " The third version is #121290 and was fitted from the 3.2 litre cars in 1986. This pump uses the same seal as the previous #121255 but the bearings are uprated. Finally, the fourth version is identical to the third but has a plastic impeller, the previous three having a brass one." NOTE: The register doesn't seem to be aware of the 'i' pump with large bearings & seal! | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1266 Registered: 1-2001 |
I'm not so sure that a smaller sealing area is a bad thing as the force from the preload spring over a smaller sealing area produces a higher sealing pressure (but they may not have the same preload spring force). Another change is they brought down the average seal radius which drops the average surface sliding velocity -- always a good thing for life in sliding contact. On the original SB the OD of the ball-bearings are exactly the same in the two figures so if my posting altered that you can rescale those to be equal to compare other dimensions. Doesn't someone have an early "i" SPC to check various WP PNs? | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2316 Registered: 12-2000 |
Can the new style seal ("D") really be an improvement over the old style? I understand that the drawings are not to scale, but it looks to me like the new style's contact surface is much smaller compared to the old. Or am I not seeing another sealing point elsewhere in that area of the diagram? | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1265 Registered: 1-2001 |
The 308 WP SB Verell mentioned shows the upgrade from the 42 mm OD bearing "i" pump (116173) to the 42 mm OD bearing "QV" pump (121255) so it doesn't really address the question of small vs. large OD WP bearing (except to indicate the 42mm OD WP bearing at least goes back to the "i"). Here are the relevant figures: Updated 308 QV -- different face seal, added rubber seal (and maybe larger balls)  "i" and early QV -- showing the rubber seal can also be added  | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 367 Registered: 5-2001 |
Definitely a large bearing pump, I just did the conversion on my digital caliper. Yours must have been upgraded in the past. I believe Nick's modified large bearing pump is $495, but he uses a different bearing and cleans up the casting inside... | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Junior Member Username: Steve Post Number: 241 Registered: 2-2001 |
OK folks I just pulled the water pump. Took 3 hours to do and I had to remove both timing belt covers as well as the AC compressor. Pump came out ok and the rear bearing hole was packed with hardened grease. So I've made 2 calls so far. 1 to East Coast Jaguar , Inc. who rebuilds Ferrari and Jaguar stuff. $219 exchange for either small or large bearing. Called Flying Dutchman and he wants $225 exchange. He told me he uses US parts both seals (says chev. seals) and bearings. Both guys give me a 2 year warranty (just return it). Still waiting for Nick to respond and I'll also call Rutland's and GT parts.Now when I took off the front pully and measured the bearing OD it was 1.671 " I think this is the large bearing pump. Dutchman and East Coast said that the 1977 308 should have the larger bearing. Next is modifing the timing covers.I marked the interference areas but it looks like a lot to grind. Has anyone done this? Both of these guys recommended that I get a rebuilt with updated seals and not get Ferrari seals even if they don't do the rebuild.I've got more questions but this is all for now. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 464 Registered: 5-2001 |
F* # for 'i' wp bearing: 116159 Gotta leave to make a Ski Race Clinic @Wachusett. Will grab my Carb'd 308 FPC & compare to my 'i' FPC when I get a chance in the next day or so. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2314 Registered: 12-2000 |
. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1261 Registered: 1-2001 |
Verell -- perfect -- thanks. Do you have the F PN for the "i" WP bearing? (or even better the SKF family number?) Must be some difference(s) for the "i" WP from the carbed 308 WP since the F PNs are different. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 462 Registered: 5-2001 |
Steve, I've only a .PDF file, so i'm emailing it to you. BTW, the 'i' water pump part #s are: 115654 Water pump, complete 116173 Water pump,complete(front) | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1259 Registered: 1-2001 |
Verell -- Thanks. Can you scan/post the SB? Also, does it say what PN the new assembly 121255 replaces? | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 461 Registered: 5-2001 |
'QV' WATER PUMP CUT-IN Steve, et. al., Here's the authotative info extracted from Ferrari's Factory Service Bulletin SB 17-3 2-15-84, SUBJECT: Modified Water Pump: "Starting with the following engines: 308 4 valve Europa no. 1381 (corresponding to chassis no. 48529) 308 4 valve U.S.A (M.Y.83) no. 607(corresponding to chassis no. 48621) 208 Turbo no. 358(corresponding to chassis no. 48591) we have introduced into production the new "water pump - front assembly", ... corresponding to Ferrari part no. 121255. " It goes on to say that the chassis #s are approximate & the car would have to be examined to see which engine it has. FWIW: My '82 Euro 308 GTS QV S/N 43825 Had a pump with large bearings & the large seal. However the pump could have been replaced. | ||
| Timothy Fulmer (Tf308)
New member Username: Tf308 Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2002 |
Did anyone ever read that an F40 impeller would fit in a 308 waterpump for better flow. I may have had too much eggnug, but I seem to remember hearing this somewhere. Any thoughts? | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1258 Registered: 1-2001 |
Peter R. -- thanks for the info -- they're the same PN in the '78 SPC so the change must be later (and my initial WP a replacement -- my bad). The SKF 62202-2RS1 PN translates to a 15 mm bore x 35 mm OD x 14 mm wide deep-groove with two seals so that seems right for the small bearing WP. The "QV" waterpump (with the 42mm bearings) I purchased was 121255 -- doesn't someone have a QV SPC to confirm this pre-dates 328s? (or an "i" SPC for comparison?) Steve -- I think you're right about reducing the load on the WP bearings being a good thing in their thinking, but it may also be related to additional electrics on the later cars (e.g., injection control systems) adding more alternator load so the single shared belt lost margin -- just a thought...(Are all the QVs separate WP/alternator belts? -- having a flashback that the '83s are not.) | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Junior Member Username: Steve Post Number: 240 Registered: 2-2001 |
I've noticed in one of the pictures on changing the water pump on a QV that there are seperate belts for the pump and the alternator. So I was wondering why this approach wouldn't work on the earlier 308's. I would think all you would need was the belt tensioner asm. that mounts on the front timing belt cover and use the extra pulley grove that the front air pump used to use.Has anyone tried this? I assume that they went to 2 belts to reduce the load on the WP bearings. Whats the concensus here? | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2312 Registered: 12-2000 |
Steve, here's the numbers for everything I have: SKF bearing number: 62202-2RS Ferrari's # for the bearings: 103877 Complete pump #: 111192 (I think. That's the number listed as "pompa acqua completa") | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1256 Registered: 1-2001 |
Peter R. -- Can you give the Ferrari PN for the 35mm OD bearing itself and the complete water pump assembly? (I'll compare to the '78 B/S SPC tomorrow.) | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 365 Registered: 5-2001 |
It appears the change over took place late in the GTSi/GTBi series. Before they went to the larger bearing, there was an interim version with an extra rubber seal to protect the bearing; it seems this was started early in the GTSi/GTBi series. The only change in the water pump for the 328 series was the late ones supposedly had plastic impellers instead of the traditional brass....In still looking for confirmation on all this. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2306 Registered: 12-2000 |
Looking in my '79 GT4 P.C., the part# for the water pump BODY is: 103705. This is the same number CAST on the body of my small-bearing pumps. Now this just confirms that the GT4 continued use of the small pump until its end. I know Steve this doesn't answer your question, but I hope it helps... | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1254 Registered: 1-2001 |
Dave H. -- I'm not super-sure about the timing either. Somewhere (maybe the FORZA 308 buyer's guide) I recall someone quoting it occurred in 1977 (and it might not have been a real sharp switch-over -- i.e., using the old inventory 'til exhausted). Still, I've got to believe it occurred way before the 328 (although maybe the 328 had some impeller design improvements or something). I bought a "308QV" waterpump from Tony P. circa 1990 and it had a 42mm bearing (although the one I replaced was 42mm also, but I don't know if it was the original WP). Maybe we can see the change in one of the SPC -- the '78 308 B/S SPC only shows 1 style WP -- anybody got the other years? | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1253 Registered: 1-2001 |
Tommy A. -- "6302" is the main portion of a much longer SKF single-row, deep groove, ball bearing PN. It indicates the general size as 15 mm bore, 42 mm OD, and 13 mm wide so you do have the "big" bearing 308 WP (but there are a whole bunch of other details encoded in the complete SKF bearing PN -- shields/seals, lub type and fill, radial play, tolerances, etc.) | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 360 Registered: 5-2001 |
Steve, The transition to the large bearing water pump seems to be in some dispute....On the 308 GTS Registry, Carl's water pump discourse says that the large bearing was introduced during the 328, (having forgotten, I used that as reference in my previous post) but have heard some say it was introduced during the QV, now we see a GTSi with a possible original large bearing water pump...anyone know for sure when it was introduced? I know it wasn't before Oct 78, as my 308 had a small bearing, until I had it swapped out... | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 359 Registered: 5-2001 |
Steve, The transition to the large bearing water pump seems to be in some dispute....On the 308 GTS Registry, Carl's water pump discourse says that the large bearing was introduced during the 328, (having forgotten, I used that as reference in my previous post) but have heard some say it was introduced during the QV, now we see a GTSi with a possible original large bearing water pump...anyone know for sure when it was introduced? I know it wasn't before Oct 78, as my 308 had a small bearing, until I had it swapped out... | ||
| Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
New member Username: Tommya Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2002 |
Does anybody have a cross reference # for the seals | ||
| Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
New member Username: Tommya Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2002 |
David, The bearing on my 82 308 does have the 42mm bearing. I guess this would be the large. Thank you for the help. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 357 Registered: 5-2001 |
Not sure, as that is not a Ferrari part number...probably the bearing manufacturers part number....why not just measure it? | ||
| Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
New member Username: Tommya Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2002 |
Steve, David my pump has the 6302 bearing. Would this be the large bearing ? | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1251 Registered: 1-2001 |
Tommy A. -- I believe the "small bearing 308 WP" uses ball bearings with 35mm OD and the "large bearing 308 WP" uses ball bearings with 42mm OD. (The change occurred before the '78 US model year so your '82 should already have the large bearing version WP unless someone changed it. I'm not familiar with the further changes on the 328 WP.) | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 910 Registered: 12-2001 |
I thought the 308 pump was upgraded or revised maybe 3 times prior to the 328 pump. I thought mine was a 308 large bearing pump. No special pulley required. The neck of the pump is much larger than other 308's for sure but i dont know what a 328 one looks like. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 349 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tommy, The large bearing waterpumps were fitted from 1986 328's on. They will fit on the earlier 308 series, and some owners have had them retrofitted (I did on my old 308). I don't know the exact difference in diameter, but once you have seen the waterpump on a 328, you can "eye ball" the difference between what is on your car and tell immediately. If you have records with your car, they would note the upgrade... | ||
| Tommy Anastasiou (Tommya)
New member Username: Tommya Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2002 |
How can anyone tell if the bearings on their water pump are the small or large ?? | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2298 Registered: 12-2000 |
The shaft from my spare small-bearing pump is fine and I'll be re-using it again upon re-assembly, but if you're stuck with a crappy shaft, Superformance in England sells a stainless steel shaft for a reasonable amount... I think they have SS shafts for the large-bearing types too. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 458 Registered: 5-2001 |
BTW, the 308 GTB register has a good Tech Tip procedure on rebuilding the water pump: http://www.r-design.net/308/index_e.html You want 'Carl's Tech Tip #6: Water Pump' Also, there's Matt Boyd's photo illustrated water pump rebuild procedure in Ric Rainbolt's online service manual site: http://www.expensivecar.com/water.htm Between the 2 procedures, just about everything you need to know is covered. One tip: Once you've removed the outer bearing, make sure all the scale & other crud is removed from the inside of the pump housing's bearing area before you try to remove the inner bearing. Otherwise you run a good risk of cracking the pump housing. Cracked housings are about the only reason for rebuilt pumps failing, and this is generally the way they got cracked. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 457 Registered: 5-2001 |
Steve, Don't push it, at least 1 of your water pump bearings is shot. As long as your pump shaft is in reasonable shape,go ahead & rebuild it. It kept the car cool this long, it'll do the same for many more years. If the pump shaft is only slightly pitted around the seal mount, but was still holding the coolant in, you can clean the area & put the seal on with RTV to keep it from pitting worse. Same thing happened to me a couple of years ago, limped home a mile or so with the alternator light on & the temp gauge rising due to what turned out to be a melted belt. Couldn't figure out what melted the belt, water pump & alternator shafts both felt fine. Finally just replaced the belt, & everything seemed fine. No undue noise, etc. However, it kept nagging at me. I just couldn't convince myself that I'd caused the belt to melt by over-tightening it. Finally,I decided to pull the water pump off & give it a look-over just in case. As soon as I removed the belt & wiggled the water pump shaft, It was obvious that the bearings were gone. 2nd clue was that both drip holes were sealed with a waxy substance that I eventually concluded was the grease from the bearings. Funny thing is that the pump shaft wasn't leaking. The seal was holding. Also, There was a slight groove inside the pump where the impeller had been rubbing against the pump wall. However, it clearly could have siezed up again, & probably not close enough to be able to limp home w/o overheating. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 902 Registered: 12-2001 |
Also on the small bearing pumps, the shaft pits where the seal seals to it. If it is, you have to replace the shaft which is expensive. If you upgrade to the large style bearing, the seal setup is different and a pitted shaft is no longer an issue during rebuilding. Mine is the larger style, someone else got to pay to replace it. | ||
| Matt Morgan (Kermit)
Junior Member Username: Kermit Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2001 |
Steve, I would be wary of running it. Whatever the reason for the locking up may come back again, perhaps spinning a bearing in the process. I use a double bearing (#3202)when rebuilding. Some shortening of the spacer is needed for the extra width, but its worth it. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Junior Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 236 Registered: 5-2002 |
Steve you can not tell the condition of a timing belt by looking at it. Bearings don't really go bad from sitting, but belts do and a broken timing belt is a very bad thing. 30K or 5 years and they go in the trash. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Junior Member Username: Steve Post Number: 236 Registered: 2-2001 |
Magoo I'm kind of leaning that way but I'll make that decision when I open it up.I know the belts and bearings were done at 32k.I seem to have read some time back that you should replace the belts every 30k or 3 years which ever comes 1st.But if the belts look good and the bearings are good I'll pass to 60k.Hans mine ran just like yours until yesterday.I'm also leaning toward just a rebuild as I said this car ran cool with the orig. pump. I guess we are down for a while we are expecting 4-8" of snow tomorrow.Time for the winter work. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 686 Registered: 4-2002 |
Thanks, guys. This stupid car just runs like the Eveready Bunny. It has a few bizarre noises, etc., but original water pump, alternator, fuel pump, clutch, and carbs that have never been rebuilt. Burns a quart of oil every 1500 miles. Can't figure out why it doesn't give more trouble. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 342 Registered: 5-2001 |
Peter, good point! I forgot that the early 308's don't have the extra stuff driving the same belt...so I suppose a stock small bearing pump (rebuilt) would continue to give good service if properly tensioned.... | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3889 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Flying Dutchman tele. no. maybe in the archives. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2293 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hans, wait until it starts weeping on a regular basis to rebuild (not from a drip or two from not driving it for a week or more. I'm talking like a consistant drip, even after driving it day after day, back to back). Catch it soon after that. Rebuild your old small-bearing pump, nothing wrong with those (you don't have the air-pump driving off of it so there's that less of a load on it). | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3888 Registered: 2-2001 |
Steve, In my opinion if you are sure the belts were replaced at 30,000 then I would not change them until the 60,000 service. If not sure replace them with the pump. Sounds like though they were replaced along with bearings etc.. | ||
| Edward G. Salla (350hpmondial)
Member Username: 350hpmondial Post Number: 357 Registered: 2-2002 |
Call The Flying Dutchman, get his number from Hemmings Motor news. He specializes in British Water Pumps, and does a good FIAT as well. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 338 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hans, I'd be inclined to leave well enough alone, but depending on how long you intend to keep the car, you may wish to "upgrade" to the 328 waterpump when the time comes. By shopping around now, you can take you time and find a good price, AND the appropriate pulley needed for the swap...I don't think anyone is going to swap your small pump "core" for the large pump, so you will likely need to buy one outright, then you can Ebay your old one.... | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Junior Member Username: Steve Post Number: 235 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hans mine was the same way.I had the car out on Saturday and no problem then wam , today it locked up.What I find strange is I never had one freeze up. On all of the Jags and Corvettes I had the 1st sign of failure was the infamous drip , drip , drip.Not so with this , just stopped. I wonder if it tool late to ask for a new pump for Christmas. HAHAHOHO | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 684 Registered: 4-2002 |
Slightly O/T: My water pump is 27 years old. Seems fine, no noise, no leak. Should I do a pre-emptive strike, or just wait for the inevitable? | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 551 Registered: 3-2001 |
If they are fairly old. Change them while you are in there but are you wanting to change the seals to, now is a good time but then things start adding up. I would change the t-belts and tensioner bearings while you are in there. Cheap insurance. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Junior Member Username: Steve Post Number: 234 Registered: 2-2001 |
I kinda figured that its toast.Just thought it was strange that it didn't leak. Also I don't know when they changed the bearing size so if I get it rebuilt could I get it exchanged for the larger bearing? Also Magoo what do you think about the timing belts? yes/no/maybe Thanks | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3885 Registered: 2-2001 |
Steve, I would definetly have it rebuilt. The seal may still be holding but the bearing obviously locked up. You may have freed up the bearing but it will lock up again when it gets hot. It could cause you some bigger problems. So my advice is to rebuild or exchange for a rebuilt or a new one but definetly remove the old one. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2068 Registered: 9-2001 |
there was a recent post on this and sources for the bearings - check the archives. Nick has also a high performance rebuild if you want to send it to him. BTW rutlands has a discount before end of the year if you want to buy a new pump | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Junior Member Username: Steve Post Number: 233 Registered: 2-2001 |
Well I just limped home from my ride . Seems I blew the waterpump belt I thought. Well low and behold the waterpump froze up and burned up the belt.I just turned the pump with a wrench and it loosened up . No antifreeze leaking. SO here comes the questions . 1st history , bought in 7/1999 with 30K tune up done on 2/1999 with 32K on the car.Repair sheet does not say waterpump was replaced only belts , bearings , seals , valve adj. , carb's tuned/rebalanced , gaskets/seals , plugs/wires/points , antifreeze ,brakes bled transax. oil changed , all filters. So now I've done standard stuff like oil/filters , all fluids changed , etc. I just turned 45.2K miles today. So: * do I rebuild pump or have it rebuilt , if so where do I get best parts deal or best rebuilder * do I do belts and idler bearings By the way car ALWAYS ran cool (170 deg.) and no greater than 195deg in summer (90deg with AC on). Advice appreicated. THANKS |