| Author | Message | ||
| Russ Gould (Russ)
New member Username: Russ Post Number: 44 Registered: 2-2003 |
There is a lot of truth here. Ferraris are not mystery machines but there are some traps and the cost of mistakes is very high. Each person should only attempt those procedures they are comfortable with, and for which they have a decent step-through manual or guide and the right tools. Above all, take your time and stop and ask when you are not sure. It would be helpful to compile a list of common pitfalls. A new thread anyone? In my experience, I have found many professional shops to be less than professional. I had a distributor oil leak that took several tries to fix (it was the little invisible o ring, I told them so but they didn't believe me and changed the oil seal twice); a DEQ tuneup that ended up being a set of new cats, all the while the problem was a vacuum leak; a rear brake job that came apart and galled up the park brake drum; a flickering water temp gage that still flickers; a new sump that leaked as bad as the old damaged one; a total engine rebuild that leaked and suffered from clutch judder; an oil change that dumped oil all over the engine; and a valve job that clatters; and so on. In fact, I can't think of too many that went right. And none were cheap or quick, these were all full-priced Ferrari shops. I figured even if it takes me two tries, and a lot longer, I will know it's done right when it's done, and I won't have to make two or three trips to the shop, wife in tow. Meanwhile, I will have learned a lot more about the car. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 297 Registered: 5-2002 |
Gene, Your question won't get much exposure tucked in this thread, you might want to start a new one for each topic. Before you do that though, if you do a search, you should find info on 308/328 carpet, where to buy and how to do it. The best price I found when I did mine was from www.gahh.com I don't recall seeing anything on seats before, you could search, but you'll probably need a new thread. Good luck and enjoy you new car! I've had mine 3 years and just love it. | ||
| Gene Berndt (Geno)
New member Username: Geno Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hi! This is my first time in the chat room. I am an owner of a 1979 308 GTS and have some questions. I hope this is the place to be! I need to replace the carpeting. Where can I find good quality carpeting that will not cost $$$$ ? I would also like to replace the seats with seats similiar to recaro but do not want to pay the price. Any ideas?? Thanks | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 117 Registered: 7-2002 |
Well said. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 496 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>JRV...Working on a 308 you have to admit is rather easy. These cars represent the only Ferrari were every part can be serviced with out the need of special tools(save ring nut sockets). You know as well as most people on this board that unlike the 348 ,355 the engine does not have to be removed for major services like the timing belts. If a person is inclined and wants to learn and is willing to listen and do the research then there should be no problem with them doing the work and doing it right. << Tom, I never said most guys couldn't or shouldn't work on their own Ferrari's...others are trying to put those words in my mouth...won't stick though...go back and read what I wrote, not only on this thread but the dozens of others where I try to walk guys thru their deal...not only am I here trying to help to that end...I rountinely help & show guys at my shop how to DIY so they can 1)keep issues small thru the ability to give immediate attention to things 2) save themselves time and money 3) make their Toy alot more fun & stress free to play with Now the slant that is at issue here is the hubris and over confidence some exhibit in their attitudes and perceptions. IMO being over confident and deluded about ones own genious and abilities is a dangerous attitude to take when working on machines that 1) have VERY expensive consequences for failure 2)can & will jump up and bite even the best in the ass without warning What I was offering is the very sound advice of not underestimating the challenge of Ferrari work and treat the task of Ferrari service with the respect complicated expensive machines deserve. I abhore seeing & hearing about people being ripped off and share what I can here to help guys dodge the bullet of being taken. OTOH...I feel trying to convince people it's easy is misguided and tends to lead to butchered up cars or worse because of underestimating the nature of many of the tasks and because it gives people a false sense of reality that leads to them not looking before they leap. I do this stuff every day and while it's certianly not world stopping, it's not what most consider 'easy'. Ferrari service and repair takes Time, Patience, Respect for how easy it is to make mistakes. IMO if those ingredients are adhered to then Ferrari tasks can be succesfully traveresed, if they're not, well...I've seen more hacked up POS cars than I can count and not just from DIYers but from shops as well.. Happy New Year to All you guys and treat your Ferraris with the respect they deserve and let's make 03 a year of more and happier Ferrari Miles. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Junior Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 126 Registered: 9-2002 |
JRV...Working on a 308 you have to admit is rather easy. These cars represent the only Ferrari were every part can be serviced with out the need of special tools(save ring nut sockets). You know as well as most people on this board that unlike the 348 ,355 the engine does not have to be removed for major services like the timing belts. If a person is inclined and wants to learn and is willing to listen and do the research then there should be no problem with them doing the work and doing it right. I would suspect that an owner would spend the extra time to torque every nut, clean all the parts,and make sure every nut and washer goes back in place. If you want to work on a car that does need a mechanic and is a hell of alot more difficult to do anything on...try doing a water pump on a Mazda MX-6! I'll bet my left nut that you could have the engine out and serviced on a 355 before the water pump on the MX-6 was even half out! | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1190 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hans, You are always so controversial But I agree. Ric gets my vote for just having the cool 1980's rock star name. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 706 Registered: 4-2002 |
I know this will p!ss off the pro mechanics reading this, but I'd MUCH rather have Ric Rainbolt or Peter Rychel (both shade tree amateurs) work on my car than any professional mechanic. The problem is that neither of these guys hire out! | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 277 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think it comes down to this, do you work on your other cars or would you be trying to learn to be a mechanic on your Ferrari? Mistakes made in you youth that ruin a $400 chevy are one thing. A mistake that ruins your Ferrari(or part of it) is something else. If you have good general skill with tools and machines, and are willing to ask questions and most important, listen to the answers, you can probably learn what you need to know to maintain or repair your Ferrari. If you enjoy the time you spend working on your baby...I mean Ferrari, doing the work yourself makes having it that much better. I know it does for me. If you curse every time you pick up a wrench, your car belongs at a shop. As an aside, If you ever wondered how there could possibly be SOOOO many stupid people in the world, here�s an analysis I put together. An IQ of 100 is average, with normal distribution, so 50% above 50% below. Again by definition the normal range is 85-115, with below 85 retarded and above 115 gifted, this accounts for 68% of the population, +/- one standard deviation. Also, below 70 is severally retarded and above 130 are brilliant, each 13.5% of the population. So, a perfectly average person with an IQ of 100 sees a person 15 point below them as retarded and 30 points below them an severely retarded. Therefore a person standing above 130 would see anyone with an IQ of 100 or less as severely retarded, or 50% of the population. They would see anyone at 115 or below as retarded, or 84% of the population. Almost 9 out of 10. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 357 Registered: 2-2002 |
Oooh, I would hate to do it for money. That would make it no fun at all. IMHO, your hobbies need to be separate and segregate from your work. It just works out better that way. | ||
| Paul Jeffery (Peajay)
New member Username: Peajay Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ric It would be interesting if sometime you could give some tips and your experience on how you get the engine bay to look so good and the materials you use etc. I know I for one would be interested. Paul | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 111 Registered: 7-2002 |
Now, now, there's really no need to get so defensive. I think everyone here will acknowledge your obvious accomplishments in your chosen field. I think all the group is trying to teach you, (and you would be well advised to consider it), is that the 308 isn't beyond the technical limits of most owners' ability to understand. OK, Skippy, you may be able to get the job done faster, or with less reference to available manuals, but the car is serviceable by the mere mortal. I can appreciate your attempt at professional glorification, but really, analyze your audience. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 110 Registered: 7-2002 |
Sport? I am amused. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 495 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm glad you guys seem to be having a cake walk with Ferrari's, awesome, not everyone has it so easy. You guys thought about pooling your tremendous mental and physical resources and starting a Ferrari repair shop? With the present going rate in the market place ya'll could either make a fortune or drive the price of Ferrari repair down to where you want it to be and have fun at the same time. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 356 Registered: 2-2002 |
Of course, I have an opinion here.  After 4 engine rebuilds, numerous clutch jobs, three transmissions, and two complete interior restorations, etc. (all successful, all Ferrari), I would say that I qualify as the exception to JRV's rule. I don't work in the automotive business and I have no formal training of any kind, yet I know considerably more (esp. concerning restoration) than quite a few mechanics (and a few engineers) that I've encounter. For instance, JRV, you could never put the amount of work that I put in on my TR, because nobody would pay the bill. I have over 180 hours and >$1200 cost... just in cosmetic preparation. Even at $20/hr, who would care to pay $4000+ for an engine detailing?? That doesn't count the hundreds of hours working on the interior, rebuilding the heads, engine, suspension, brakes, and transmission. The last time I tallied to parts cost and then counted my labor at $40/hr, the total was over $45K... and that's for a project that started out as a 30K service! The car was a disaster when I got it. This is not a good picture, but you can get the idea: www.rainbolt.com/ferrari/31Dec02/MVC-806X.JPG From my experience, the home mechanic route is probably not cost effective. The hours involved, at least doing it my way, are prohibitive. I work on my cars for a sense of self gratification, not to save money. If money were the sole objective, I'd probably stick to 100% dealer maintenance. | ||
| pete (Pete_peter)
New member Username: Pete_peter Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2002 |
It's all basic stuff, as long as you have as Paul says, mechnical inclination. It is not rocket science by any means. I know a bunch of guys who don't even work in any kind of mechanical field and they all fix their own Ferrari's for fun (not engine rebuilds, just basic stuff). And Jeff Edison's engine bay is proof of perfect work. Impressive work. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 962 Registered: 12-2001 |
I agree with Jeff, you dont need to be a mechanic to fix a ferrari. You need mechanical inclination, some money and balls to a certian extent. No magic wand required JRV. | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 245 Registered: 7-2002 |
JVR...there are a certain group of mechanics out there that think they can bend you over and do a little "deliverance" on you just because your car has a prancing horse on it.... I think a major problem is that there are more "parts changers" out there than true automotive technicians...hence the thoughts you came up with..I don't believe your conclusion, though that if a dumb mechanic can do it anyone can.. face it these cars are built like kit cars with a great engine...like jeff said...there is no rocket science here and no praying toward Modena necessary before servicing | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 494 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeff, don't get your ascot all in a wad sport. This is just about throwing out our experiences. Now that you've defined what group you're in your 'perception' makes sense. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 109 Registered: 7-2002 |
>>>The difference between professionals & amatuers<<< I think that explains it. LOL | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 493 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>BTW- I am an aviation professional with a degree in engineering)<<< Ahhhhhhhhhhh...that explains it all perfectly. Thanks LOL | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 108 Registered: 7-2002 |
When you don't need to worry about making $$ on the job, quality undeniably goes up. If time is not a factor, quality will show. Unless someone has unlimited funds, a diligent owner can do as well, even better. Pebble Beach? Well, better have unlimited funds if you're going for the win. But if you want a great 308, that drives well, is dependable, and looks GREAT, just do it yourself- RIGHT. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 107 Registered: 7-2002 |
JRV I've done all the work on my 308, (While your description of "standards" is cute, it's not really relevant here). You've obviously never seen any of my work sitting next to the "craftsmanship" of one of you so beloved "professionals". The 308 isn't rocket science- (BTW- I am an aviation professional with a degree in engineering) I respectfully beg to differ. I'd be glad to embarrass you by parking next to anything you own at the next show in my "owner serviced" lowly 308. How about it? I'm open for objective opinions of others too! How about it? Your friend, Jeff | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 491 Registered: 11-2002 |
I want to add one more thing ... Perception...... There is a certian group that mistakenly believes 2 things: 1) they are smarter than everyone else 2) mechanics must be stupid because they get dirty & work hard for a living Which brings them to the mistaken conclusion that cars must be easy to work on because those dirty stupid mechanics can do it, and being smarter than everyone else it's possible to skip over learning and jump right to doing everything better. Ferraris have a way of putting reality back in the game though...;-). | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 488 Registered: 11-2002 |
>> DO IT RIGHT. << The problem with that statement is that it's subjective. Right by who's standards? And who's subjective opinion decides if it's 'right'? The difference between professionals & amatuers imo is the understanding of what the World Standards of Excellence & Perfection are, rather than some local or imaginary standard. I'm not going to argue about this, just noting that many people make up their own standards of excellence as they go along, both so called professionals and amatuers..this is one of the few industries where people think they can teach themselves the ropes...it's pretty bizzare when looked at carefully, because how many would visit a Dr. that taught himself medicine or a lawyer that taught himself law? Not many I suspect. And anyone that thinks Ferrari's don't require a great deal of skill, experience and knowledge to service perfectly are really kidding themselves. After doing this for 30 years I can tell you there are volumes I didn't know then that I know now, so I also know what newbies haven't had a chance to learn yet...and it's a freakin bunch. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 106 Registered: 7-2002 |
The answer to this question really depends on the OUTLOOK of the owner. It doesn't take great skill to do far superior work on a 308. These really aren't complicated cars. What it DOES take is tenacious attention to detail and very thorough due dilligence. If an owner will read, observe consult, and investigate before disassembling his vehicle, he can do a better job of maintaining it. It DOES require some level of skill and experience, but not extensive. The key here is simple: DONT' HURRY. GO SLOW. DO IT RIGHT. I clean and inspect as I go. IMO If an owner is fairly good with his hands, and doesn't mind the car being "down" for a while, he can do a far superior job to a professional, that makes his living by VOLUME. Just my humble opinion. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 371 Registered: 1-2002 |
I would agree with JRV on this. I have had some bad experiences myself with cars maintained by backyard mechanics. Undoubtedly, there are owners who are skilled enough and careful enough to do good work. You can look at them and say to yourself "same systems as any car, just nuts and bolts" but there are plenty of opportunities for screwups even if you have some experience. That said, you can save quite a bit of money on 308's if you can do simple parts replacements and repairs to stuff that's easy to access. But, for required maintenance and major jobs, experienced pros would actually save most people time and money plus make the car more marketable when it's time to sell. Dave | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1166 Registered: 8-2002 |
On the problems with the 308. I did them all except the shifter seal boot and the cat install. I also adjust my own shifter and clutch. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1164 Registered: 8-2002 |
I agree with JRV. Without knowing the person's level of skill, It would be hard for anyone to say go ahead and fix it yourself. I can do minor simple things. If it's straight forward and is a simple fix, I will do it. Getting over the fear that the car is not made of glass is the hard part. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 465 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>I went to a ferrari dealership, and he told me its difficult to work on ferrari's, and said he would not recommend no one to work on their own 308.<< Would I hire a complete novice to work on Ferrari's because he had enough money to buy one? Very simple..NO! Would I reccomend someone whom I have no idea of their skill level to work on their own Ferrari, knowing how expensive the consequences might be...NO! So the dealer was giving you the benefit of his best advice under the circumstances. Nothing more, nothing less imo. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1163 Registered: 8-2002 |
I have a 78 308 carb and a 82 512 bbi. I have had the 308 for awhile and it has never left me stranded. It is also my daily driver. Here are the problems it has had shifter seal replaced $270 wipers did not work .50 fuse new wiper blades $15.00 New Cats $1800.00 (ca smog) Fuel Pump. Took it out, cleaned it up, reinstalled $0.00 New weather seal for the top. $100.00 New speedo sending unit $100.00 New door shim bolt $12.00 It's a great car and I love it to death. The carbs take a deal of time to dial in but once set, they scream. It's due for it's major in May so we'll see how that goes but for now It's been the greatest car. | ||
| fabri (Fabrizio_trunzo)
New member Username: Fabrizio_trunzo Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2002 |
Matt,, what kind of ferrari do you have,, does it break down often. How reliable is the car? | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 253 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well, I haven't worked on my 328 either. That being said, I suspect that the dealer is looking out for his service department with that answer. After all, if you're fixing your car, you're not spending money at the dealership. Just my $.02 There's several guys here who have completely rebuilt their 308s, I'm sure they'll have opinions | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 1161 Registered: 8-2002 |
Not very actually. I do some of the minor work such as carb tunes, little things that need fixing. I will not touch the clutch or belts. I do not have the special tools needed. I am not afraid to work on it. As long as I can do it. | ||
| fabri (Fabrizio_trunzo)
New member Username: Fabrizio_trunzo Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2002 |
You know I have been looking for a 308 car for around 9 months now, and I hope to find one that I like shortly,, but I have a question to ask you ferrari mechanics, and enthusiasts who turn your own wrenches.. I went to a ferrari dealership, and he told me its difficult to work on ferrari's, and said he would not recommend no one to work on their own 308. I feel that the car is not that difficult. Now,, I have not realy worked on one, and am planning to replace my own clutches and carb job if I have to. The question is.. How difficult is it?. |