| Author |
Message |
Frank Foster (Sparta49)
Member
Username: Sparta49
Post Number: 451
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 2:44 pm: | |
I was having the same problem and found a broken wire by the front turn signal |
Barney Guzzo (Trinacria)
Junior Member
Username: Trinacria
Post Number: 63
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 1:12 am: | |
James
Take that tiny electrical schematic that is nearly impossible to read - and take it to Kinkos, Office Max, or where ever and have them enlarge it for you (then have it laminated). Thats what I did. It makes a big difference.
I tried enlarging it myself with a copy machine -it doesnt come out nearly as good. |
Peter Polasek (Peterp)
New member
Username: Peterp
Post Number: 30
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 10:35 pm: | |
This spray IS a lubricant, which is exactly why it differs from every other contact cleaner I have seen and I think the lubricant is the key to why it works so well. Granted, it's probably not exactly the same viscosity as the original oil, but this spray contains a lubricant that sticks to the contacts and keeps them lubricated over the long haul -- I am confident about this because the 3 items I have resurrected with this spray have been working flawlessly for 2 years without any additional spraying. I strongly agree with your statement that traditional contact cleaners leave the surface dry as a bone and will quickly damage the contacts from friction -- but this stuff is different. It's worked 3 out of 3 for me and in none of these instances was it a temporary fix. Obviously, it won't correct physical damage to the internals, but it sounds like a contact issue since CRC made it work better. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 486
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 10:23 am: | |
James,
'tugging' the lever increases the slider's force on the contacts, & probably shifts it around slightly. Flicking from right to left also shifts the slider around.
This assumes that nothing's cracked. If the actuator is cracked, then the slider's probably being shifted around on & off of a rivit head.
It's OK to use a spray cleaner to get thru the immediate inspection crisis, but then the switch should be properly serviced. Most likely the other switch functions are starting to degrade & should be serviced also.
DO IT RIGHT:
the switch contacts should be burnished & lubricated. The original lube got the switch thru 20 years, a proper service should get it thru another 20.
Peter,
While the spray may dissolve some crud, it also dissolves the lubricant that's intended to both prevent the contacts from tarnishing, reduces the sliding forces, & probably keeps the contacts from arcing on break. While it'll probably make things work better for a while, contact corrosion & wear are likely to be worse over a much longer period. |
Peter Polasek (Peterp)
New member
Username: Peterp
Post Number: 29
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 6:54 pm: | |
James, try the Radio Shack tuner control cleaner -- it's $6.95 and available at, well, Radio Shack. This works when other cleaners don't. My turn signal was completely dead, I was sure no spray would fix it and CRC didn't work, but the Radio Shack spray fixed it and it has worked flawlessly for two years. If it doesn't work, I will refund triple the price of my advice. |
James P. Smith (Tigermilk)
Junior Member
Username: Tigermilk
Post Number: 103
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 5:19 pm: | |
I did try out some CRC cleaner and it fixed it briefly. This is a problem that is new. I was away from home for 4 months and when I came back the turn signal wasn't working both ways. I've had the car since May 2001 with no signal issues before.
I find I can get the signal to work with a gentle tug towards me while activating a left turn signal and sometimes and quick right followed by left turn (wiggle the turn signal stick basically). So it sounds like debris and/or dirty/corroded contacts. I'll have to dig into it deeper, but I need to get the car inspected here in Texas (was due Dec 2002). |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 484
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 10:52 am: | |
James,
WHAT IS THE TURN SIGNAL'S HISTORY
(DUH: Should have asked this 1st.)
Was the turn signal stalk position working fine & suddenly started doing this, or is this a problem you inherited?
The turn signal switch is a HEAVY DUTY, HIGH CURRENT double-pole/double-throw switch. As you'll see from the following description, it's not a lightweight audio/video type of switch.
There are two rows of contacts. Each row consists of 3-copper smooth topped rivits, each about 5mm in diameter. The rivit on 1 end of each row is the contact for the LEFT indicator, & the opposite end are the RIGHT indicator connections. The center rivit on each row is the common connection.
The connection is made by a pair of spring loaded sliding brass sliders, 1/row. The sliders are about 6mm wide, & something like: |_-_|
The slider's 2 lower flat sections bridge the center contact rivit & the left or right end rivit. The raised section in the middle is where the contact pressure spring sits. The wiping force is high enough so that even very infrequent actuation should keep the contacts clean.
If the problem suddenly developed, I'd suspect that there's either some debris on one of the LEFT contact rivit heads, that contact rivit has come adrift from the switch body, or the wire has come adrift from that contact rivit. An unlikely possibility is that the plastic actuator that moves the sliders has become bent or is broken such that it can't quite move the slider onto the left contact. In this case it isn't likely to be corroded/tarnished contacts.
If this is a long standing problem, possibly going back to an extended period of non-use, then possibly one of the rivit heads has a very heavy layer of corrosion on it.
In either case, it's unlikely that a spray on contact cleaner will be able to remedy the situation. An exception would be if some organic material such as congealed grease is preventing contact, then it could be dissolved by the contact cleaner.
If the problem is congealed grease, then most likely there's a lot more of it and the problem will recurr unless it's cleaned off & replaced with fresh dialectric grease.
Most likely you're going to have to pull the switch to deal with the problem.
BTW, it's important that the contacts be greased. It ensures smooth contact operation, & the film of grease blocks contact corrosion. A spray cleaner that just washes all the grease off could be setting you up for long-term contact corrosion problems. |
Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Junior Member
Username: Enjoythemusic
Post Number: 56
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 9:32 am: | |
Hi Everyone,
As for contact cleaners... WD_40 is NOT a good choice and RS Tuner Cleaner is ok, if a bit unrated for specific use.
First allow me to say i am an audiophile, have worked for Heathkit, know my way around a schematic, etc etc yada yada... If you want the best stuff to clean, enhance, etc contacts, may i humbly suggest CAIG Lab products? They are PROs in their field (like Leatherique is for leather). Many different products for various applications, just use it SPARINGLY as the stuff is VERY powerful!!! Please feel free to see my review at:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1199/revieworama.htm
Disclaimer: i do not work for CAIG and never have. Just when Xerox, the military, pro audio companies and may others swear by it...
Hope this helps. Feel free to call them as SOME of their products are designed for higher temp operations while others are not.
Enjoy Your Drive,
Steven R. Rochlin
|
Peter Polasek (Peterp)
New member
Username: Peterp
Post Number: 23
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 8:26 am: | |
James, you should try "Tuner Control Cleaner & Lubricant" from Radio Shack (Cat No. 64-4315). This stuff works very well -- much better than CRC in my experience. I had the exact same symptoms with my Carrera turn signal --I was certain the switch needed to be replaced but tried this spray on it and it permanently fixed the problem (it has been working for two years since). No disassembly required, just spray it into the swtich area, move the turn signal back and forth 20 times or so, then spray it again and let it sit for an hour or two (it works best if you work it in through movement and then let it penetrate). Radio Shack also has a product that is called "Contact Cleaner" without the lubricant and this did NOT work on the turn signal, so be sure to get the tuner control cleaner. I THINK CRC (not positive) and other electrical sprays are similar to the Radio Shack Contact cleaner that I found less effective, so the tuner control product is fairly unique. As you might expect from the name, this spray is also great for volume/tuner knobs on radios -- I had an old stereo that I was going to throw away because of a volume knob that had been scratchy for years and I had tried other standard contact cleaners without success -- this spray fixed it permanently. It worked better after I sprayed it on but didn't take full effect until the next day when it had penetrated overnight and it has been working flawlessly for 2 years. Miracle product in my opinion.
|
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 481
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 12:31 am: | |
ItalParts has run it up on eBay a couple of times with no bidders. I've thought of buying it just to have a brand new switch to make molds from. But $550 is pretty steep & I do have a switch I'm working with.
BTW, notice that it's a GT4 switch, the stalks are brushed aluminum color, not black.
Mike,
Never saw the 'You can't have any'. Wonder if Denise was giving someone the brush-off, or just having fun.
|
Don Norton (Litig8r)
Junior Member
Username: Litig8r
Post Number: 122
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 5:01 pm: | |
There's a switch on ebay currently. |
mike 308 (Concorde)
Junior Member
Username: Concorde
Post Number: 81
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 8:01 am: | |
Verell: That site is showing something different today. When I first looked at it, the only thing on www.unobtanium.com main page was the phrase in large text, "YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY." |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 476
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 1:45 pm: | |
Mike,
Don't know what the deal is with Unobtanium.com.
WHOIS says it's registered to Denise the owner of the family web site it's aliasing into. She certainly isn't doing much of anything with it.
|
mike 308 (Concorde)
Junior Member
Username: Concorde
Post Number: 80
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 7:25 am: | |
I see www.unobtanium.com was already taken (and funny, too). |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 474
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 7:43 pm: | |
James,
There's a good chance that the problem is just tarnished switch contacts. You'll have to pull the column switch to clean them.
The contacts are copper & the sliding part of the contact is brass. Just burnish them with 800 grit or finer sandpaper (or use an old fashioned points burnishing tool if you're a dinosaur like me). Then coat the contacts with a thin coat of dielectric grease to keep them from re-oxidizing. The grease will also let them move easier.
The column switch isn't particularly hard to pull. Biggest thing is you'll need a ring nut tool. Even that, you can make from 1-1/4" iron pipe like the one Carmine Nicoletta (Ncarmine) made. There's a photo in my column switch repair saga thread:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/107784.html
Go to the thread & do a search for Carmine, or "home made ring nut tool".
A tip: The regular Baum tool is such a tight fit inside the colum that it cuts the horn wire (ask me how I know). To avoid this, double the horn wire over & stuff the contact & wire back down inside the groove where it comes up past the ring nut. The wire has to be all the way into the groove. After re-installing the ring nut you'll have to fish the wire out again. (Try tieing a length of dental floss to the bent end of the wire, It's strong enough to fish the wire out with, & thin enough that it won't get cut.)
If I ever have to pull the ring nut again, I'm going to chuck the ring nut tool in my lathe & turn the o.d down by 2-3mm & also bevel the edge.
Don't know how tightly Carmen's home made tool fits into the shaft, but suspect it's not got this problem. The tool is only about the the diameter of the ring nut.
Hans, Funny thing you should mention my making plastic parts. Tomorrow I'll be making the production molds for the wiper stalk switch & knob. The turn signal stalk will be next.
Today I also got the town's approval to operate my Unobtanium Supply(tm) business out of my house & will be picking up the Business Certificate tomorrow! Bought the UnobtaniumSupply.com domain name last month! (No web site yet, but it'll come in a few weeks!).
BOTTOM LINE:
If the turn signal switch end is really broken, you'll be able to buy a new switch stalk in a couple of months. Maybe sooner. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 710
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 5:51 pm: | |
Don't go into total panic mode if it is the switch. There's been considerable talk about repairing them. Broken plastic parts are the biggest nightmare, and Verell is working on that. Electrical contact problems are not as serious. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 965
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 8:53 pm: | |
Hope that fixes the switch. You really dont want to pay for one if the switch is toast. Cross my fingers mine still works in the spring. |
david handa (Davehanda)
Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 420
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 8:14 pm: | |
Not "dry lube", try CRC electrical contact cleaner, comes in an aerosol can, and available at most electronic supply stores, and Ace Hardware in my neighborhood! |
James P. Smith (Tigermilk)
Junior Member
Username: Tigermilk
Post Number: 101
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 7:58 pm: | |
Update - appears to be in the switch. I can pull on the lever some to get it going. Went through the archives and someone sprayed some dry lube in there. I may dry that. I dread opening up the steering column nooks and crannies to get to the switch. |
david handa (Davehanda)
Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 417
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 3:50 pm: | |
James,
"bulbs look fine"...you really need a multi-tester to be sure. The $10 ones work okay, you just need to be able to check continuity on the bulbs to be sure they are good, then see if you have voltage or not. That's a start, then go through the checks Steve gave you... |
James P. Smith (Tigermilk)
Junior Member
Username: Tigermilk
Post Number: 99
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 3:25 pm: | |
Sorry for not getting the specifics. That slap stung a bit. '78 GTB. I've got the OM but man is the wiring diagram small. Don't want to chase wires around but I may have to. I took the lens off and the bulbs look fine. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 1:39 pm: | |
James -- First, you've got to take two cyber-slaps:
1. Disclosing the year/version for your 308GTB or 308GTBi would get a better response (Is there some reason it can't be in your Profile?), and
2. Why don't you already have the appropriate OM so you can figure this out for yourself! Seriously, for the 308 2-valves, the schematic is in the OM and there's no downside to having one IMO (great info -- with some very solid content, modest price, easily resold for cost, etc.).
With that said, I'd be surprised if the B/Bi/S/Si are any different in this area so here's what I have on the '78 B/S:
Power (Fuse #1) -to- (in-series) Flasher -to- Switch where it splits:
Switch in Left Position -- Puts +12V on a 1st AN (lt. blue with black) wire going to the Left Front turn signal bulb and puts +12V on a 2nd AN wire going to the Left Rear turn signal bulbs.
Switch in Right Position -- Puts +12V on a 1st A (lt. blue) wire going to the Right Front turn signal bulb and puts +12V on a 2nd A wire going to the Right Rear turn signal bulbs.
Since your RH side is working OK, the Power and the Flasher are OK so I'd think the switch contact to the LH side somehow has a problem. There is some parallelism in the grounds and the wires going to the turn signal filaments so since you report that they're all out on the LH side (rather than just a quadrant) the switch contacts are the place to start IMO (IIRC they are open, cleanable frankenstein-style contacts if you can get the ring-nut/steering hub off). Alternatively, you could try measuring the voltages on the AN wires going to the LH side turn signal bulbs, but I think it will just confirm what the bulbs are already telling you (i.e., the AN lines don't go +12V when selecting Left). Good luck with the fix... |
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta
Post Number: 246
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 9:43 am: | |
james, just unscrew the lens to get to the bulbs...also, from behind the bumper check the condition of the tiny ground wire at the back of the turn signal housing...these often fall appart and cause gremlins with the turn signals. |
James P. Smith (Tigermilk)
Junior Member
Username: Tigermilk
Post Number: 98
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 8:41 pm: | |
It got dark before I could check the bulbs. When I activate the right turn signal I hear the relay clicking away, the light on the dash indicates the bulbs are flashing, and the outdoor lights do blink. When I go for a left turn nothing happens - no relay sound, no dash light, and no outdoor blinks. Is it
1) dead bulb (how do you get at the front bulbs? Unscrew the lens? Come in from behind the bumper?)
2) electrical gremlin
3) turn signal switch
4) other?
Thanks, james |