| Author | Message | ||
| Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
Junior Member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 94 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mark--go to the "showroom" area on here and there are several pics posted | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 353 Registered: 5-2002 |
Philip, It's the stock 8.6 CR and it should run on pump premium if I sized the intercooler right. Temperature is bad, pressure really isn't, but you can't make pressure without making heat. The screw type compressors have similar temp rise as turbos, much lower than the roots type blower. The inlet temp now is almost 300F with no detonation, so as long as my cooler can keep it under that, it should work. The fall back plan is to change pulleys and live with less power. I think it will be ok though. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 90 Registered: 7-2002 |
Mark What fuel/additives is it running on with what compression for 25 psi? Philip | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 348 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's what I decided/did (there is still may be time to stop it, so jump on me if you think I'm screwing up!). I ordered brembo rotors from truechoice. 09.5683.11 & 09.5683.21 for the front, they are 355 x 32 and cost $290 each. The rear is getting 09.5682.70 & 09.5682.80, they are 332 x 32, again $290 each. I drew up a set of custom aluminum hats, coleman is making them for $250 each. Everything should be here in about 2 weeks. I'm going to keep the stock calipers, at least for this year. The budget is the budget. I really think they will be ok, although the small pads may wear to fast. I'm following the pad thread with great interest. I am in the process of designing new spacer blocks to put in the calipers to make them fit the 32mm rotors. It looks like they'll just clear the larger diameter, so that's good. When the parts get here, I'll finish the design for new mounting brackets. I think the balance should work out about right, the big sticky tires I have transfer a little more weight forward, but that is compensated by the rotor diameter, clearly the piston area rations have not changed. I don't know if nascar if a good example. They have a 15" wheel rule I think, so that limits there options. Outlaw makes ceramic coated titaniun rotors for that application, a friend of mine just bought a set, but hasn't run them yet. Charles, I"d love to see a pic of your engine. I almost decide to strech the car using GTO panels and drop in a TR engine this year. I decided instead to switch from a roots blower at 10 psi making 360 cramk HP, to a screw type with an inter-cooler and run it to 25 psi. It should come out about 600 crank HP +/-, now my concern about stop comes clear....... I hope all the parts stay inside the engine. | ||
| Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
Junior Member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 93 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mark--If you are running a supercharger and have a lot of power you better go hard core like me--I have 400HP with my V-12 in the car and I NEED the BIG BRAKES! | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2002 |
Brake Handbook by Fred Puhn, 1985 HPBooks, Tucson, AZ, 602-888-2150. I don't know if it's still in print. ALL the stuff is in here nice and easy to follow by example. Fun and easy calculations, the toughest part is measuring/estimating CG. | ||
| Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
Junior Member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2002 |
BY THE WAY-- The biggest problem with the hard core upgrade that I did was I lost my Parking brake.. Now I just ordered a set of the small mechanical units from Brembo (that are on the 360's)---so I still have some work to finish my project--pics to follow And I did Calculate a price--total was about 3300.00 | ||
| Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
Junior Member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2002 |
GUYS--you really need to think about TORQUE ! The greatest weakness of the Ferrari Brake system is the small rotors. Adding just 1" in rotor diameter is going to have a LOT more effect than anything else you can do. MARK--- A standard NASCAR rotor is 12.2" and will look great on your car--try Coleman Racing and they can do custom 2-piece rotor/hat parts for you at about 220 each. then look into Brembo (4) piston calipers ALL AROUND or possibly go with Willwood or Outlaw. Your MUST do some calculations before starting to make sure you are not altering the FRONT:BACK BRAKING RATIO!!! | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 340 Registered: 5-2002 |
Nice rotors Mike. That�s probably the smartest way to get the system up to par. I�m leaning a little more on the aggressive side though, more along the line of what Charles did. I think what I�m going to do is take Rob�s advice and stick with a premium brand. That means I�ll blow the budget though. I�m leaning toward buying 2-piece slotted brembo rotors, 355 x 32 for the front and 332 x 32 for the rear. They�re only a little more money than the stop techs and I know they�re good (over double the coleman price though). I�m going to try to modify the stock calipers to work for this year then mount brembo or stop tech next year once I�ve forgotten the pain of the rotors. The wilwood or similar brand (outlaw, ect�) calipers are very tempting, but then I guess I�d be stuck with their pads, which may or may not be the best. Everybody makes a pad for the brembo (the stop tech is a brembo clone, lower price). | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 151 Registered: 7-2002 |
If you want to upgrade the brakes on your 308: see Mike Charness's post below. This will work. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Junior Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 154 Registered: 8-2002 |
These were just under $600 for all four corner delivered to my doorstep. Combined with Porterfield R4-S carbon/kevlar pads, they're great.  | ||
| Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
Junior Member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 90 Registered: 3-2002 |
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/1652.html | ||
| Charles I Claussen (Atlantaman)
Junior Member Username: Atlantaman Post Number: 89 Registered: 3-2002 |
The trick to better braking is larger rotors. Look back thru the archives for the retrofit kit I designed to put 12.2" rotors on my 308 will try to find and post location if I can Charles | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 275 Registered: 2-2001 |
OK I stand corrected . I did not assume that street driving hit speeds of 0-100-30-70-etc. I've always left those speeds to the track. Anyone playing at those speeds around town is irresponsible IMO.If you do a lot of rallying then maybe an upgrade will do but at speeds less then 50mph in the city and up to 70 on local roads I don't see a need for upgrades. As I mentioned with all of the jags and corvettes and daimlers I've had I have never lite up a rotor. I guess I'm the old fart here. Oh do me a favor here and don't kill my family here just do yourself. | ||
| Randy (Schatten)
Member Username: Schatten Post Number: 557 Registered: 4-2001 |
fyi, wilwood also has a forged caliper now, instead of the billet superlights. if you are looking at the wilwoods - you should look for those instead of the billets, however on the street, you will not be able to tell a difference. glowing rotors? yes, you can heat them up on the street that quickly indeed, by going from 100-0 constantly. on a track, you are using your brakes constantly and then you come out of a turn, instead of hitting a stop sign/light and then you cool them off. I would suggest starting out with some new pads and fluid for starters, and then upgrade to the kit if that doesn't float your boat. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 338 Registered: 5-2002 |
I must be missing something. I found a Brembo front lit for $2400, nothing for the rear and no part prices anywhere. I found AP calipers starting at 600/400 for 6/4 piston, no rotor info. It looks like the wilwood stuff starts at about $750 per wheel with 6 piston calipers (-150 for 4 piston, maybe for the rear?), 2 piece 325mm rotors, street pads and braided line. So I can stay in budget with wilwood. I don't see how with the Brembo or AP, anybody have a good source for them? | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Junior Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 152 Registered: 8-2002 |
I went with Brembo factory-drilled rotors on all four corners, using Porterfield Carbon/Kevlar R4S pads. Wonderful combination for street and track, and not that expensive. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 337 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here�s the article that Rob mentioned if anyone else missed it. Thanks. http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/2002/september/200209_feature_braketest.xml?&page=1 | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2002 |
On my 308 I have wrestled with brake performance as have many of us using the stock rotors and calipers. While a $3500 upgrade would be the ultimate, for me it is just not practicable. Good fluid (Motul 600) and pads (Porterfield R4-S) have made a useful improvement and actually given me some confidence going into tighter corners at the track. The next step I;d like to look at is more effective cooling. Has anyone tried to upgrade their brake cooling on a 308 with 288 style ducts and pipework? Philip | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bigger is better for hard driving/ track driving. $3500 will get you all you need with either Brembo, Alcon, AP, StopTech, etc. See Car and Driver magazine about five months ago. They tested brake upgrades from I think six or more manufacturers on a WRX. Great information on this topic. It's probably available online at http://www.caranddriver.com. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 336 Registered: 5-2002 |
I've had all 4 rotor lit up, so I�m pretty sure that problem is neither the hand brake nor proportioning (although a proportioning valve is a good suggestion as part of the upgrade). There are a few roads I know that follow creeks with no side road or driveways for long stretches�..and I trend not to be the worlds most conservative driver at times. I figure god gave us superchargers and big sticky tires because he wanted us to put them on our car and enjoy ourselves. JVR, can you be more specific than suck? If it feel, fade, all, poor feel? Rob, price is definitely an issue. I think the abosulute max is $3500. My thought is getting big rotors will get me a big improvement. Maybe that�s not true though. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2002 |
I believe glowing rotors on spirited street driving. If you do the calculations, and they're easy to do, any car with marginally sized rotors will be at 1000 degF with one deceleration from 100 mph to stopping. A 308 run hard on the street, say slowing at almost max deceleration five times in two minutes going 100 mph to 30 mph will see temps approaching 1000 degF, which is dull red. Increase the rotor mass to absorb and dissipate that energy and you decrease temperatures and/ or increase endurance. One stop of a first gen RX7 from 90 mph to 40 mph increases each front stock brake rotor temperature 800 degF and the rear brake drum 450 degF empirically and mathmatically. Granted the rotors only weigh 6lb each, but the math and physics is the same for other vehicles. Heavy car, light rotors, high temperatures. Yes, the metallurgy has a huge influence on the operating characteristics. I have experience with Brembo, Alcon, and Coleman. The Alcon's metallurgy is exceptional, but you pay for it. The Coleman's are not to Ferrari quality and I'd only use them when price was a much greater factor than performance, they're adequate. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 430 Registered: 5-2001 |
Actually, it is not necessarily that hard to get the brakes glowing bright orange with a street car. I took a drivers class where we drove some hot laps on a short course ( 1/2 mile with cones) and four laps would easily get all four rotors glowing red on the Pontiac Grand Prix's provided. These cars had upgraded to aftermarket rotors and carbon/metallic pads. Instructors would take the cars back out for "cool down" lap between each student. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 272 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mark it looks like you have us baffled here. The only times Ive seen rotors light up were if you drive with the brakes on , if the cal. piston is stuck or if the handbrake is hung up. I venture to say that I don't think anyone on this site has done this in normal everyday driving. Just like anyother car the 308 can take care of itself with the stock braking system. If you want to track the car then go for the best but finding the best mix (track/street)means something has to be sacrificed. So how are you setting the rotors aglow? | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 140 Registered: 8-2002 |
Glowing rotors on the street? What are you guys doing? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 540 Registered: 11-2002 |
The Wilwood Kits on Porches suck. I'd go Brembo or nothing at all . SS lines a must. If you get really hot & heavy a Brake Proportiong valve also. If your rotors are glowing that hot, sounds like you may need brake cooling ducts . | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 335 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jeff, I�ve literally had the rotors glowing bright enough to see in day light a couple times. It just makes me nervous knowing that�s possible and that was just playing on the street. I can�t imagine what a few laps at the track with the slicks on would do. I think I�m going to need to take drastic action, but braided lines will definitely be a part of it. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 140 Registered: 7-2002 |
Mark, Last time I changed the brakes on my QV, I went with EBC Greenstuff Kevlar pads on stock calipers. I also added stainless steel brake lines from Tire rack. It made a difference, at least on the street. I've never tracked the car. The pedal has a firmer feel and deceleration appears to be a constant rate right up until wheel lockup. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 332 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think it's about time to upgrade the brakes on my 308. I'm thinking about buying willwood 6 piston calipers and 12.9" (328mm)curved vane rotors (I've got 18" wheels, so clearance is not a problem). Any thoughts? What else have you tried? Any feed back on the bolt-on brembo upgrade? http://www.precisionbrakescompany.com/wilwood_billet_superlite_6.html http://www.precisionbrakescompany.com/wilwood_gt_48fin_curved.html |