| Author | Message | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 150 Registered: 8-2002 |
Don't know what you guys are doing with the oil pick-up tube. Never had a prob getting these out. Just make tools with funny bends and don't be afraid to either pull motors to get stuff out quicker or lossen motor mounts to tilt engines. It is way faster than fighting. I always use a lift too. I'm too old to hunch over. | ||
| DeMarzo (Demarzo)
New member Username: Demarzo Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2002 |
Rob, Just thought of what I wrote about "Not to far" It my only be 30 mile but is is a 2 hour drive. It's the LA thing. | ||
| DeMarzo (Demarzo)
New member Username: Demarzo Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2002 |
Rob, Go information. I live not to far from you in Corona, CA. I will give you a call to see what issues you ran into during repair. I think mybe you should come here and do the repairs for me. Talk with ya soon. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 497 Registered: 5-2001 |
Like I said, doing the full timing bearing/seal replacement in the car is marginally less time & work than pulling the engine & doing it. Possibly a shop that's got R&Ring the engine down pat could do it in less time that way. Ric's had practice, your 1st time will be longer... I think it took me more like 40-50 hours to do the full timing bearing job w/engine in the car. (I also did both belts & tensioner bearings w/cam covers off.) Took me 5 or 6 hours just to to re-install the oil pickup tube. What a PITA!!! Never had so much trouble reinstalling 3 studs & getting 3 nuts on them in my life! & I had the car on a lift. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 402 Registered: 2-2002 |
The front timing cover can be fully serviced with the engine in the car. It is not a trivial job. The proof is here...  You can see the horrible mess made by the leak around the area (below and left) of the timing cover. Having done this at least 3 times, I can tell you it is at least 20-30 hours of work. It requires a ring nut socket for the timing drive gear and some very frustrating work to remove the oil pickup tube. | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 99 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dimarzo' where are you located?? I did the whole thing with my engine in the car. I would be concerned as sometimes the seals leak bad when the outer timing bearing goes causing the shaft to move causing the seal to leak. call me if you want 805-643-6003 Rob | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 494 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hey Paul Chill out, I am not picking a fight with you. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1065 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hey Mitchell, ever since you d*cked me around on those pistons I felt you were some kind of anus. You dont have to pull the engine to do what I suggested. I wouldnt take any advice from a dork who drove his 308 4 miles with no oil due to a broken oil line rather than pull over.(how did you know you drove 4 miles? I guess you were just crossing your fingers hoping to make it home) Were you trying to avoid a costly tow bill? Gee, dont you look smart! Mmmmm, in retrospect perhaps you should have pulled over after all, hahaha. $$$$$ | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 495 Registered: 5-2001 |
Demarzo, Mitchell's right, the job can be done with the engine in. Both Robartgarvin & I did the complete timing bearing/seal replacement which included our inner bearings. This requires removing the timing cover & pulling the timing gears out. Doing the full job with the engine in the car is IMHO marginally less work than pulling the engine to do it. (See the threads I referenced in my earlier post.) Replacing just the outer bearing(s) and the seal(s) is MUCH easier. Biggest problem is getting that outer timing bearing off. It's a press fit on the shaft & housing. It'll take destroying the outer bearing's ball cage & removing a ball or two, then inserting a tool that grabs the inner & outer races on each side of the bearing. This thread has a photo of such a tool, with a lot of discussions on timing bearing replacement: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/7992.html An alternative is to make your own equivalent tool by grinding flat sides on the heads of a pair of socket head cap screws, & rounding. The grindig creates a 2 sided 'T' that will slip between the races sideways, then you rotate it to grab the inner & outer races. The ends of the T will have to have their corners ground down until they're approximately ball shaped like the photo in the thread. Insert the tools on opposite sides of the bearing, & insert them thru holes in a disc shaped heavy metal plate (1/8" to 1/4" thick) that has a clearance hole for the drive shaft. The plate can be made from a large washer. Put nuts on the ends of the tools to keep them on the plate. Then, use a pulley puller to pull on the plate, extracting the bearing. CAUTIONS: 1) The outer bearings are sealed with only their original lubrication. Always replace the outer bearings. They're the ones that commonly fail & in the process take the inner bearings out because they let the timing shaft rotate off-axis, cocking the inner bearing's inner race at an angle with a lot of force on it. The bearings are cheap, (Think I paid $8, or maybe $15 each from a local bearing supplier. Got exact replacements for the bearings. The part#s are in one of the threads I posted earlier. 2) There have been several reports of inner bearings failing relatively soon after replacing a failed outer bearings. If an outer bearing has gone bad, IMHO the inner bearing MUST be replaced also. That unfortunately requires removing the timing cover which is a big job (been there, done that-See the threads in my earlier post). | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 493 Registered: 11-2001 |
I think someone did this with engine in the car once, who was it? Was it Verell? He did not have a great time doing it because the front case cover did have to come off. A very special bearing puller is required for this job with the engine in the car, and he never found it. I did mine with the engine out of the car while it was being rebuilt. In my opinion, and from my experience, without a special bearing puller, there is no way in hell one can get that bearing out without taking that case cover off. And, taking the case cover off is a lot easier with the engine out of the car. What "in theory should work" and what "actually happens" are two very different things in life. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1062 Registered: 12-2001 |
Damarzo, after the drive gears are off, take out the snap ring and the bearing in theory should slide out. The seal is behind this bearing. Remove the seal and reverse the procedure. I would not pay a truck load of money to have this done. That will fix the oil leak. If the bearings are ok, you could get the rest of your ownership of the car out of them without failure. If a drive bearing does go in the future, you will have plenty of notice, noises and gear movement before anything crazy happens. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 596 Registered: 11-2002 |
As Johnny Cash would say....." I hear that train a comin, aaa rollin round the bend, once that little engines out...your bill will keep climbin, till you got no more to spend...... | ||
| DeMarzo (Demarzo)
New member Username: Demarzo Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2002 |
Do the seeger ring just pop out? are the hard to remove? How do you get them past the flush point? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 794 Registered: 4-2002 |
$5K? I guess I didn't read that part. Yeah, run!!!! | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1060 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hans, $5000.00? Just to pull the engine to make it easier? Gouging IMO. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 792 Registered: 4-2002 |
I guess I should probably mention, however, that some mechanics seem to be able to R&R an engine in less time than it takes you to brush your teeth. If he isn't charging an arm & leg for the R&R, having the motor out would make the work easier. I doubt in this case it would be the economical choice, but maybe?? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 791 Registered: 4-2002 |
I've never heard of engine removal for ANY kind of work on the front of the engine. If you remove the wheel, the fender liner, and (unfortunately) the A/C compressor, the entire front of the engine is exposed. I've heard of difficulties getting the belt covers off of some of the early cars, as a stud arrangement was apparently problematic. But it's do-able, and most people replace the offending studs with bolts. My old '75 has bolts in the front cover. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1059 Registered: 12-2001 |
Demarzo, the seal for the cam drives is behind the outer drive bearings. I would think that after the bearing is out, the seal can be removed and a new one installed. You could also replace the outer bearings at that time without extra labour. This can all be done in car. Should you replace all the drive bearings? Your choice and alot more work/money. If it were a leak only and the bearings were fine then I would fix the leaks and move on. | ||
| DeMarzo (Demarzo)
New member Username: Demarzo Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2002 |
Okay, went and picked up by F-car from the shop. This is what I was told. He has to remove the engine to take the timing cover off because the drive gear oil retaining ring is leaking. At that time new bearing and belts. Also a cam cover gasket needs repalcing. What do you all think. Is there a way to complete this task with the removal or should I go ahead and consider the $5000 price tag. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 494 Registered: 5-2001 |
JRV, Obviously experiences vary. I only have a sample of 1 cam drive seal failure. I guess it depends on how much the cam drive seal is leaking. I was dealing with a very slight leak that only left traces of oil when the engine was good & hot, & after a fair amount of driving. Drove me nuts for over a year until the timing bearing failed, then all was quite obvious. I got the UV light kit, but the bearing failure beat me to identifying the problem. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 565 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>CAM DRIVE SEAL IS ANOTHER STORY: A Cam drive seal oil leak is a bear to isolate, acts like a crankshaft leak until you thoroughly clean the front of the engine & use a dye in the oil to find it.<< Hmmmm....can't say I agree about it being a bear to spot...with a clean area the leak can be spotted with engine running and wheel well out within a few minutes. No need for dyes for this particular area imo. A good flashlight and clean area yes. Pulling the engine...no way, that's nuts! | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 398 Registered: 8-2001 |
Richard: The FIRST order of business is to FIND the exact source of the leak !!!!!! | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member Username: Verell Post Number: 490 Registered: 5-2001 |
DON'T ASSUME SHOP IS RIPPING U OFF UNTIL YOU KNOW WHERE THE LEAK IS. A crankshaft seal is pretty easy to change, & shouldn't involve pulling anything but the passenger side wheel, wheel well liner, alternator & waterpump belt, crankshaft damper pulley, & the offending seal. CAM DRIVE SEAL IS ANOTHER STORY: A Cam drive seal oil leak is a bear to isolate, acts like a crankshaft leak until you thoroughly clean the front of the engine & use a dye in the oil to find it. Factory recommendation/assumption is to pull the engine to replace cam drive seals & bearings. Most shops would probably recommend pulling it also. Mitchell Lee did his last spring with the engine out while he was rebuilding it. BUT, It can be done with the engine in the car (RobertGarvin & I did ours last spring). It's marginally less work than pulling the engine, & a lift makes a BIG difference... We kept a pretty lively discussion going in the F*chat. Here are a few of the more relevant threads. I couldn't find a couple of the better ones, but if you search for 'timing bearing', 'cam drive' & 'timing drive' you should find them. http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/2606.html http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/7992.html http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/8707.html http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/28021.html http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/21198.html http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/59918.html http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/93680.html | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 491 Registered: 11-2001 |
One more thing, make sure the seal is installed well past the "flush" point. Otherwise, you will be doing this again, very soon | ||
| Tom Treue (Treue)
New member Username: Treue Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2002 |
Richard: Make sure you are not leaking from the timing belt drive pulley seals. From personal experience and in reading other threads it is more likely that the drive pulley seals are leaking than the front main seal. In driving the car with a leak in this area, the leak will meander around and is very difficult to track without some Reveal oil colorant. The harmonic balancer bolt will only come out with an impact wrench, Be careful when you torque it back in. The dual woodruff keys (I don't recall if these would have to be removed to get the front seal out.) may put up a struggle coming out and may have to be drilled and dremel-tooled out and then replaced with new ones. I would use an awl to punch small holes into the metal shell of the seal then turn sheet metal screws into the holes and use the screw heads to lever the seal out. Make a seal installer from the appropriately sized piece of PVC pipe cut square on the end. You could make a better one out of aluminum or brass if you had access to a lathe or wanted to pay a shop to make one. There may be a commercially-available seal installer available. You can buy the seal from a bearing and seal supply house for just a few dollars, so buy 2 or 3 in case you trash the first one going in. Tom | ||
| Richard DeMarzo (Demarzo)
New member Username: Demarzo Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2002 |
Good info. Lets say it the worst case. What parts will I need, is there a step process that needs to be followed and if so what is it. How long should it take for someone with some skill? If you can give me any other information that would help it would be helpful. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 554 Registered: 11-2002 |
No...there is no oil leak or seal in that area that could possibly require engine removal. Worst case scenario would be cam belt drive gear seals..which would require pulling the gears, replacing the seals and a belt replacement. Find a real shop before you get the real shaft. | ||
| Richard DeMarzo (Demarzo)
New member Username: Demarzo Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thanks for your imput. This thing lead oil like no tommarrow. Is the any seal in that earea that would require an engine removal? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 553 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pull the Engine>>> HUH ????? That's NUTS !!! Run Forest Run, Run Like the Wind Forest to an honest shop! Entire crank seal job, maybe 2 hours, + seal. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 339 Registered: 5-2002 |
2 things. 1st, I can't think of any reason you would need to pull the engine to fix that seal. It isn't even hard to get to. 2nd a small leak can be fix with a squirt to egnine degreaser once a week. | ||
| Richard DeMarzo (Demarzo)
New member Username: Demarzo Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2002 |
I have oil leaking from my right side crank shaft seal. What should be the cost of replacing it? Is there any easy way to change it? They say they have to pull the engine, is that true? Is there any thing I could do to stop the leak aside from removing the engine? I think this is a bad thing!! |