| Author | Message | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
New member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2001 |
sorry, I can't seem to shrink the image to the required dimensions. It looks really neat though... | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
New member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2001 |
Here are pics of my cat/precat for the 512TR after removal and the painted/hollowed-out pre-cats with Nick's test pipes installed  | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
New member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2001 |
Here are pics of my cat/precat for the 512TR after removal and the painted/hollowed-out pre-cats with Nick's test pipes installed | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 127 Registered: 6-2001 |
Sorry but I don't remember the tip diameter, and the car is in storage for winter. They were just inexpensive resonators fro Mid-America Corvette. The sound was more like a snarl than rumble or crackle. Until I can try to get this recorded, you might want to see if there's a used Vette for sale in your area with these aftermarket resonators. I had a Corvette with them at the same time as the TR, and the sound was similar in terms of exhaust note, just better and louder with 12 cylinders. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 146 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill B. - Were the outlets (tips) of those resonators you used 2.5" ? I was considering KBD's newest polished stainless resonators that are 3" dia. But after looking at your old pics again I think 2.5" is the largest outlet that will fit through the body openings. For some reason, I keep thinking that my TR will sound like a redneck's pickup with tiny pipes exiting just in front of the rear wheels....or better yet...with dual stacks like a Kenworth. I'm sure you've all seen and heard these things! But seriously, did the car "rumble" or "crackle" ? | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 402 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jeff: Thanks for taking the time to measure. A problem now arises: I can order 2" or 2 1/2" stainless pipe......those must be metric. I wonder how hard it will be to get. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 145 Registered: 10-2002 |
Henryk, went out in the shop and measured my exhaust with calipers. Shows 2" O.D. approx. for the primary pipes off the headers, and about 2.350" O.D. aft of the cats to the muffler, and at the tail pipe tips. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 401 Registered: 8-2001 |
William: Are these 2 1/2 inch pipes and flanges on the TR? I would check myself, but it is 5 degrees outside, and it would take time to get the car on the lift. Thanks. | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 123 Registered: 6-2001 |
The flanges are over the counter Chevy bits from the local NAPA guy, as are the donuts. I'll ask the current owner to bring the TR round when the spring weather arrives and try to record this. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thank You Jimbo for the tips. My buddy Ray says the flanges are available and are similar to...if not the same as...a chevy application. If nothing else I could make up some at work afterhours in the tool room, not very hard using a lathe and bandsaw. About soaking things with penetrating oil prior to disassembly...I removed my system "whole" without any problems other than it's a bit heavy for one person, maybe I was just lucky but everything came apart fine. About the O2 sensors, they read only content, not temp. or pressure, so free flow or restricted won't make much difference. The only thing backpressure results in is higher temps, which helps the cats do their job. In some cases if the exhaust flows too good it can pull some of the fresh intake charge out of the cylinders, but I don't think that is an issue here with the TR's cam configuration. My friend Ray says a precat y-pipe would not be too hard. Simply two pipes bent to 30 degrees, then cut to join at proper spacing, so one is a mirror image of the other if that makes sense. Then bolt them onto the factory system to guarantee position, using a template mark the "outgoing" end with the proper dia. for the single pipe going to the muffler, then cut and weld the output pipe. Ray says the hardest part is doing good welds and not getting sloppy, like not using welds like plaster to fill in gaps and holes. It would be cool if Mr. Badurski could make a recording of his exhaust sound, I'd gladly pay just to hear it and rid myself of this stressful decision making process. Lastly, just what are the precats for? Are they a "first step" in increasing exhaust temps for the cats? | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1317 Registered: 1-2001 |
Sorry for the commercialism -- but I'm looking for a decent set of useable TR precats (or at the minimum 1 used functional TR 1-6 precat). I've got a separate set of already "cleaned out" TR precats that I'd be glad to trade + $ (and the insulating cases are in remarkable condition -- probably better than anything you'd be selling back to me -- I can send jpegs). Give me an email shout if your interested to discuss. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2002 |
Henryk, I hate to call someone on this, but the O2 sensor problem and too little back pressure line your service manager stated to you is not correct. There is no maximum flow velocity rating on oxygen sensors, beyond which the sensor is inefficient. Suggested reading: Automotive Handbook, and Automotive Electric/Electronic Systems, both published by Robert Bosch Gmbh. Available from SAE at http://www.sae.org. Excellent and very understandable, not so much theory that one falls asleep, great references that I keep at my fingertips. | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
New member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jeff, it will be much easier for Ray (or you) to drill out the existing pre-cats rather than fabricate a whole system (takes about 20 min per pre-cat). I looked up my paperwork and I did spend almost $600 for Nick's Forza Ferrari "test pipes". As I recall the flanges could be turned. It was difficult finding a muffler shop that could work with stainless, and it was fabricating the flanges that would have increased the cost factor. I did not want to cut the flanges of the cats in case I ever have need to put them back on, and if you want, you can sell your cats on E-Bay for a pretty penny. Nick has his done on a CNC machine and they are perfect right out of the box, but hopefully Ray will be cheaper. I was able to do everything myself without ruining any components or permanently injuring myself ("pain heals, chicks dig scars, glory lasts forever" - Keanu Reeeves in The Replacements). I would suggest spraying all fasteners with "blaster" or similar penetrating stuff 24 hrs prior to disassembly,and getting new exhaust "donuts" for the new test pipes (you can reuse them if you are careful, but IMO it's cheap insurance against leaks. Try to find generic metric replacements rather than the original ($$$$) ferrari parts. Enjoy. | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2001 |
For what it's worth, I don't buy the "too little restriction" theory. I ran only dual resonators on each bank for 10,000 miles without a problem. Pulled the plugs a couple of times to check coloring, and they were fine. That system is still in use today, on the same car, 13 years later. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 396 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jeff: I also agree that removing the weight would be to some advantage, but do you track your car to really take advantage of this? The service manager, at the Ferrari dealer, told me that if one removes to much of the exhaust restriction (ei. too little back pressure), then the O2 sensors will not work properly.......due to the gasses passing too fast past the sensor......this, in turn would give false readings to the computer, and thus, the fuel mixture. These were his thoughts. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 141 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yes Henryk you make a lot of sense. I do recall somebody else removing the cats & precats but keeping the stock muffler. And the onwer said his mechanic, and some other Ferrari types thought his TR sounded awesome. My friend Ray says he can fab up some "precat" y-pipes, and I may just put him to the test. My car is on stands while I slowly get things back in shape. I'm thinking of trucking my exhaust system to him so he can fab up the pipes at his convenience, with no rushing or sloppy work. But I do like the idea of removing all that weight off the car. Good think I have all winter to get this done. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 395 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jeff: If I were in your situation, I would just replace the cats with straight pipes and flanges, for the time being. I found 2 1/2" stanless exhaust piping at JC Whitney......84 inches for $70. Just cut the two desired lenghts and have someone weld the flanges. Drive it for a while, and if the sound is too quiet, you can then drill out the precats, as Jim has suggested. I still feel that eliminating the pre cats, cats, and muffler, with four small resonators will still be too load. (I recall they were from a Corvette). The above would be the cheapest route, and may prove to be quite adequate. Good luck | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 140 Registered: 10-2002 |
Henryk, I believe Mr. Badurski's exhaust has two resonators each side. They started out as two joined by a Y-Pipe, and he cut them off just aft of the "Y" section. I really wish there was some way to "hear" other's cars and judge for ourselves. As for the flanges, I believe they can be of a "rotational" type instead of fixed if needed, this would allow infinite adjustment. I do not think it would be too hard for a shop to make pipes and elbows, slip fit everything, and then follow up with welding. These aftermarket people are making a killing with what they charge. I was watching a video of a 365 being run hard, and the exhaust on the car featured was ( I think....) simply 4 Ansa resonators out the back, similar to Mr. Badurski's set up. Easy driving was not too loud, but when pushed it really lets everyone know! Sounds fantastic. I'm still on the fence, not sure which way to go on this subject. But either way, resonators or locally fabricated test pipes, it shouldn't be too expensive, probably less than $500 total. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 394 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jim: The reason that the test pipes are made for the cats and not the pre-cats, is that it is much easier to make....just a straight tube. Whereas, to make them for the pre-cats requires making pipes two-into-one and with bends.....very tricky. I saw Badurski's set-up, but isn't it made with just one resonator, on each side. Besides, I feel that it would be too loud. If one eliminates the cats, and use the standard exhaust, then the sound would increase, yet be OK for those longer drives. If not, then one can drill out the pre-cats, as Jeff recommends. I can't see where, making two straight pipes, and welding four flanges on them should cost anything over $300.....per pair. The only tricky part would be to weld the flanges on in the correct rotational position, to assure proper alignment when installing. | ||
| Jim DeRespino (Jimbo)
New member Username: Jimbo Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2001 |
I put a set of test pipes from Nick's Forza Ferrari on my 512TR. They are beautiful pieces with the O2 sensor bung welded on, but pricey. I took the precats off, cut off the nasty, rusty shroud material, removed the ceramic honeycomb/wire guts with a 12x1" masonry drill bit in my 1/2" drill (makes a big mess), then bead blasted the pre-cat pipes and painted them with Eastwood's stainless steel paint. After 1500 miles they still look perfect, and the sound is awesome. I also disconnected the thermocouple ECU from the vehicle harness (see archive thread)since they go bad anyway (mine was intermittent) and are not needed now that the catalytic elements are eliminated. The engine ECU compensates for the increased flow (get K&N filters while you are at it) and you get more power, MUCH better sound, less heat and minimal change in mileage. You will like it. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 139 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Henryk - I'm with you, test pipes are too expensive for the amount of material and labor required to make them. And test pipes are usually only for the cats and not the pre-cats. I'm torn between doing your idea and a system like Bill Badurski's (search the archives if curious) using only 4 resonators out the back. This would take about 70 Lbs. off the car. I currently have my whole system removed but have not yet decided which way to go. I'm going to use stainless, it's not much more expensive and your not talking about 20 or 30 feet of the stuff. About prices I would like to know too. I may be interested in a set of pipes...let me know what you find out. I will also let you know what my friend charges. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 392 Registered: 8-2001 |
I am considering making test pipes, to by-pass the cats and pre-cats, on my TR. It appears that they sell for around $500 and up.....it seems high to me. Currently I am comparing the quality of several exhaust pipe benders. Would there be anyone interested in a set? Should they be stainless or aluminized steel? What would you consider to be a decent price for these? These would only be made for the TR at this time. Thanks. |